Crippling Rheumatoid arthritis and estrogen dominance

tomisonbottom

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Apr 17, 2013
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Hello,
I am new to Ray peat.
I have estrogen dominance, rheumatoid arthritis, anxiety attacks and depression because of these 2 problems. I know every time a get sad or stressed about my pain it makes it worse because it stresses my body out to be stressed.
It's a horrible vicious cycle. It's very hard not to stress when you are in pain and unable to do normal things.
Right now the arthritis is very bad and I am bedridden. I am female, 30 years old.
The only thing I know I know of right now that can take away the pain is local cortisone injections. But of course that damages the joint to keep doing that.

I just started progesterone a few weeks ago. It's called progestelle and I'm taking between 60mg and 200/day depending on my symptoms and level of sleepiness.
I had blood work done and my t3 and t4 levels were in normal healthy range according to my doctor. The estrogen was very very high and progesterone very low.
I have been on mostly paleo style diet for the last year and a half. I really thought things got better when I got rid of dairy and sugar.
So this diet is really shocking to me but it's the only diet I've come across that is totally focused on hormones to fix the body.
I am going to start the carrot salad today hopefully. My protein might be too low but I am almost scared to eat everything at this point. It seems like theres a negative aspect to be found about whatever food item you choose. I have read SO MUCH on how bad sugar and diary is so that's the thing I want to understand the most. I read some of his articles and will continue to read through them. There is so much info though it is overwhelming so I was hoping there would be someone on here with RA that could give my some simple advice to start with.

I saw some of you on here aren't doing dairy.........so I dont' know if that's a case by case basis. I have read many stories of people who's RA got better after stopping dairy; (http://drmcdougall.com/med_hot_arthritis_diet.html)
"In 1992, Sheignalet reported on 46 adults with rheumatoid arthritis who eliminated dairy products and cereals. Thirty-six patients (78%) responded favorably with 17 clearly improved, and 19 in complete remission for one to five years. Eight of those 19 stopped all medications with no relapse. Favorable benefits appeared before the end of the third month in 32 of the patients (Lancet 339:68, 1992)."
In that article there are tons of studies of people who got better by eliminating dairy. Is this simply because they weren't eating raw grassfed dairy?

What things can I do that can help the fastest for these things?
Also is there any way to get an audience with RP for consultation? Does he do that?
THank you so much to whomever can help or give advice.
 

4peatssake

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tomisonbottom said:
Hello,
I am new to Ray peat.
I have estrogen dominance, rheumatoid arthritis, anxiety attacks and depression because of these 2 problems. I know every time a get sad or stressed about my pain it makes it worse because it stresses my body out to be stressed.
It's a horrible vicious cycle. It's very hard not to stress when you are in pain and unable to do normal things.
Right now the arthritis is very bad and I am bedridden. I am female, 30 years old.
The only thing I know I know of right now that can take away the pain is local cortisone injections. But of course that damages the joint to keep doing that.

I just started progesterone a few weeks ago. It's called progestelle and I'm taking between 60mg and 200/day depending on my symptoms and level of sleepiness.
I had blood work done and my t3 and t4 levels were in normal healthy range according to my doctor. The estrogen was very very high and progesterone very low.
I have been on mostly paleo style diet for the last year and a half. I really thought things got better when I got rid of dairy and sugar.
So this diet is really shocking to me but it's the only diet I've come across that is totally focused on hormones to fix the body.
I am going to start the carrot salad today hopefully. My protein might be too low but I am almost scared to eat everything at this point. It seems like theres a negative aspect to be found about whatever food item you choose. I have read SO MUCH on how bad sugar and diary is so that's the thing I want to understand the most. I read some of his articles and will continue to read through them. There is so much info though it is overwhelming so I was hoping there would be someone on here with RA that could give my some simple advice to start with.

I saw some of you on here aren't doing dairy.........so I dont' know if that's a case by case basis. I have read many stories of people who's RA got better after stopping dairy; (http://drmcdougall.com/med_hot_arthritis_diet.html)
"In 1992, Sheignalet reported on 46 adults with rheumatoid arthritis who eliminated dairy products and cereals. Thirty-six patients (78%) responded favorably with 17 clearly improved, and 19 in complete remission for one to five years. Eight of those 19 stopped all medications with no relapse. Favorable benefits appeared before the end of the third month in 32 of the patients (Lancet 339:68, 1992)."
In that article there are tons of studies of people who got better by eliminating dairy. Is this simply because they weren't eating raw grassfed dairy?

What things can I do that can help the fastest for these things?
Also is there any way to get an audience with RP for consultation? Does he do that?
THank you so much to whomever can help or give advice.

I understand the shock of reading Dr. Peat's articles and seeing how a lot of what he is saying flies in the face of what countless doctors, nutritionists and mainstream medicine have been telling us.

Thing is, where has their advice gotten us? Well, mostly sick and depressed. There is very little truth in what has been told to us - and Ray Peat has exposed a lot of this.

When I found Ray Peat and began reading his articles (only in January this year), I was fortunately to immediately get it. What I mean, is that I could literally feel the truth inside me and was able to immediately begin putting into practice his dietary advise. And I have made steady improvement every since.

I do not have RA but I am quite certain I have estrogen dominance and am permimenopausal and can quickly slide into depression if I am not careful.

I have also eaten a paleo diet and was sugar and dairy for years. It did a lot of damage. But I am healing now.

It is very important to understand that all of what he says is within a specific context and his advice to us is always to eat to raise metabolism.

Also, routine tests for T3 and T4 are practically useless - especially since the "normal" ranges are not normal and the higher end levels are actually dangerous to our health.

I do not know about the progesterone you are taking but what is recommended here is a product called Progest-E. This product was created by Ray Peat himself. Most progesterone products don't work all that well - especially the creams. So you may wish to consider supplementing with this product. It is working wonders for me. I know you've contacted Ray and I think this is very wise.

This is the where I order Progest-E from - the cheapest I have found: http://store.agoodvitamin.com/prcoreoil28m.html

There are other members of the forum here who are far more knowledgeable than me. I hope some of them can offer some advice to you as well.
 

tomisonbottom

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Thank you.
I did order already actually. ;-)
I am desperate for help and I am willing to do whatever is needed including drinking dairy.
It's just really hard not to 2nd guess myself then they've done trials showing dairy aggrevates RA.
The progesterone I am using is not a cream; it has no additives. It's just pure progesterone in coconut oil so I think its good stuff. But I feel like I need so much of it. I dropperful of it is 20mg and I am supposed to take between 60-200mg to offset the estrogen dominance. I think it works but I also have read that it can takes months for the progesterone levels to be saturated properly.
How many mg of Progest E do you take to notice a difference?
 

4peatssake

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tomisonbottom said:
Thank you.
I did order already actually. ;-)
I am desperate for help and I am willing to do whatever is needed including drinking dairy.
It's just really hard not to 2nd guess myself then they've done trials showing dairy aggrevates RA.
The progesterone I am using is not a cream; it has no additives. It's just pure progesterone in coconut oil so I think its good stuff. But I feel like I need so much of it. I dropperful of it is 20mg and I am supposed to take between 60-200mg to offset the estrogen dominance. I think it works but I also have read that it can takes months for the progesterone levels to be saturated properly.
How many mg of Progest E do you take to notice a difference?

I think RP can help you best with your concerns about the dairy and RA. I do know that some people have been successful adding in small amounts of dairy to start.

For dosing Progest-E, this is good guideline: http://www.longnaturalhealth.com/sites/default/files/ProgestEInstructions.pdf

Here is a thread that may help you a lot.
viewtopic.php?p=5470&sid=6d302257dff056d2d9f876acaf84b314#p5470

I wanted to also ask if you have you read Ray Peat's article entitled, "Blocking Tissue Destruction."
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/tissue-destruction.shtml

This part got my attention but I suggest you read the full article.

Ray Peat said:
According to the Physicians' Desk Referenc, hormones similar to cortisone are useful for treating rheumatoid arthritis, post-traumatic osteoarthritis, synovitis of osteoarthritis, acute gouty arthritis, acute nonspecific tenosynovitis, psoriatic arthritis, ankylosing spondylitis, acute and subacute bursitis, and epicondylitis.

Although cortisone supplementation can help in a great variety of stress-related diseases, no curewill take place unless the basic cause is discovered. Besides the thyroid, the other class of adaptive hormones which are often out of balance in the diseases of stress, is the group of hormones produced mainly by the gonads: the "reproductive hormones." During pregnancy these hormones serve to protect the developing baby from the stresses suffered by the mother, but the same hormones function as part to the protective anti-stress system in the non-pregnant individual, though at a lower level.

Some forms of arthritis are known to improve or even to disappear during pregnancy. As mentioned above, the hormones of pregnancy can make up for a lack of adrenal cortex hormones. During a healthy pregnancy, many hormones are present in increased amounts, including the thyroid hormones. Progesterone, which is the most abundant hormone of pregnancy, has both anti-inflammatory and anesthetic actions, which would be of obvious benefit in arthritis.

There are other naturally anesthetic hormones which are increased during pregnancy, including DHEA, which is being studied for its anti-aging, anti-cancer, and anti-obesity effects. (One of the reasons that is frequently given for the fact that this hormone hasn't been studied more widely is that, as a natural substance, it has not been monopolized by a drug patent, and so no drug company has been willing to invest money in studying its medical uses.) These hormones also have the ability to control cell division, which would be important in forms of arthritis that involve invasive tissue growth.

While these substances, so abundant in pregnancy, have the ability to substitute for cortisone, they can also be used by the adrenal glands to produce cortisol and related hormones. But probably the most surprising property of these natural steroids is that they protect against the toxic side-effects of excessive adrenal hormones. And they seem to have no side-effects of their own; after about fifty years of medical use, no toxic side effects have been found for progesterone or pregnenolone.

Pregnenolone is the material the body uses to form either progesterone or DHEA. Others, including DHEA, haven't been studied for so long, but the high levels which are normally present in healthy people would suggest that replacement doses, to restore those normal levels, would not be likely to produce toxic side effects. And, considering the terrible side effects of the drugs that are now widely used, these drugs would be justifiable simply to prevent some of the toxic effects of conventional treatment.

It takes a new way of thinking to understand that these protective substances protect against an excess of the adrenal steroids, as well as making up for a deficiency. Several of these natural hormones also have a protective action against various poisons; Selye called this their "catatoxic" effect.

Besides many people whose arthritis improved with only thyroid supplementation, I have seen 30 people use one or more of these other natural hormones for various types of arthritis, usually with a topical application. Often the pain is relieved within a few minutes. I know of several other people who used progesterone topically for inflamed tendons, damaged cartilage, or other inflammations. Only one of these, a woman with rheumatoid arthritis in many joints, had no significant improvement. An hour after she had applied it to her hands and feet, she enthusiastically reported that her ankle had stopped hurting, but after this she said she had no noticeable improvement.

We often hear that "there is no cure for arthritis, because the causes are not known." If the cause is an imbalance in the normal hormones of adaptation and resistance, then eliminating the cause by restoring balance will produce a true cure. But if it is more profitable to sell powerful drugs than to sell the nutrients needed to form natural hormones (or to supplement those natural hormones) we can't expect the drug companies to spend any money investigating that sort of cure. And at present the arthritis market amounts to billions of dollars in drug sales each year.
 
J

j.

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tomisonbottom said:
Also is there any way to get an audience with RP for consultation? Does he do that?

A few years ago, he used to do phone consultations I think for $75. You could google contact Ray Peat to see if he still does this.
 

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Asimov

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My specific advice would be to get out of bed as quickly as humanly possible. Most of the debilitating features of RA come from a lack of movement at specific joints. It may not be pleasant, but moving prevents the pathological deformations to a large degree. Get outside and get some sun. Oh and quit smoking if you still do that.
 

tomisonbottom

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Asimov said:
My specific advice would be to get out of bed as quickly as humanly possible. Most of the debilitating features of RA come from a lack of movement at specific joints. It may not be pleasant, but moving prevents the pathological deformations to a large degree. Get outside and get some sun. Oh and quit smoking if you still do that.


I do not smoke.

You said being active would help.........do you have RA too?

Did that help you?

I cannot walk. The pain is so severe my legs buckle out from under me when I have a flare up. Whenever I don't have a flare up I can walk around normal just fine.
 

Asimov

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I don't have RA. I'm giving you the same advice any competent physician should be giving you. The main destructive feature of RA is NOT pain (although I'm sure that sucks) it's ankylosis. People stop moving because it hurts, and their joints fuse together at the bone from lack of movement. Then you're permanently disfigured.

I know this probably isn't the advice you want to hear, but if it hurts so bad you can't walk, drag yourself. If it hurts to bad to drag yourself, roll side-over-side. RA as it's clinically understood is arthritis that gets WORSE as you sit, and BETTER as you move. So move. Often. Slowly....but do not sit in bed and let your joints fuse up.
 

tomisonbottom

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No, Sorry but no physician has ever told me to do that during a flare up. They always tell me to rest, ice, compression, elevation, anti-inflammatories, etc. And they repremand me for not resting enough most of the time. When I have what I call "dry pain" I suffer through and never stop being active. But when I have a liquid flare up like I'm having right now walking isn't possible. I am not exaggerating when I say impossible. The joint is swollen to the size of a grapefruit and the pain is so intense if I put any weight on it, I about have a heart attack. It sometimes prevents normal breathing, I cry, etc. I have many years experience with these flare ups and every single time the only way to get better is to rest until the swelling goes down. Every time I start walking again too soon and try to tough it out too soon when the swelling is still there my leg buckles and the feeling of glass shards go through my knee cap. And i am back to being bedridden again. That is like telling someone with a broken leg to "walk it off". It is not that type of pain. The stiffness or normal arthritis you're thinking of is not my problem. That type I just deal with. It's the swelling that causes the immobilization. Putting weight on it increases the pressure on the joint causing more fluid to fill the joint sac, causing more pressure and more damage to the joint, etc. That's the time when I have to rest. I know you're trying to be helpful but that isn't the solution in this case.
 

Asimov

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Your physicians are leading you so wrong it's frightening.

Rest is the death sentence of your joints on RA. Ice is what's CAUSING your swollen joints. Anti-inflammatories (with the exception of aspirin) are crippling your bodies ability to detect and eliminate the inflammation that's occuring during your flare-ups.

There are thousands of pages of studies on RA and the positive effects of exercise on joint function, disability, pain and pain tolerance, CV health, and a probably lots of other things.

My last piece of advice (because frankly, it seems like you're not going to use it anyways) is to stop icing your joints, start heating them, get plenty of MODERATE exercise when feeling good, plenty of easy exercise when feeling bad supplemented by some aspirin and/or DMSO to relieve pain. If your joint is so swollen you can't walk, do push-ups. If you're in so much pain you can't do a push-up, do a push-up plank. Do ANYTHING but lay in bed. And find a new rheumatologist. Doctors telling you to bed rest and RICE are speeding you towards ankylosing spondylitis.

I wish you the best of luck, but frankly, without the desire to get out there and sweat your RA is going to get worse and worse.
 

Asimov

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Your physicians are leading you so wrong it's frightening.

Rest is the death sentence of your joints on RA. Ice is what's CAUSING your swollen joints. Anti-inflammatories (with the exception of aspirin) are crippling your bodies ability to detect and eliminate the inflammation that's occuring during your flare-ups.

There are thousands of pages of studies on RA and the positive effects of exercise on joint function, disability, pain and pain tolerance, CV health, and a probably lots of other things.

My last piece of advice (because frankly, it seems like you're not going to use it anyways) is to stop icing your joints, start heating them, get plenty of MODERATE exercise when feeling good, plenty of easy exercise when feeling bad supplemented by some aspirin and/or DMSO to relieve pain. If your joint is so swollen you can't walk, do push-ups. If you're in so much pain you can't do a push-up, do a push-up plank. Do ANYTHING but lay in bed. And find a new rheumatologist. Doctors telling you to bed rest and RICE are speeding you towards ankylosing spondylitis.

I wish you the best of luck, but frankly, without the desire to get out there and sweat your RA is going to get worse and worse.
 

HDD

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"Rheumatoid arthritis and asthma are two inflammatory conditions that are notoriously worse during the night. Melatonin has been reported to be higher in patients with severe asthma and rheumatoid arthritis, and to promote the secretion of a variety of other pro-inflammatory substances. The peak of melatonin secretion is followed by the peak of aldosterone, and a little later by the peak of cortisol."

"The use of bright light (which suppresses melatonin) to treat depression probably helps to inhibit the production of aldosterone, which is strongly associated with depression."


"Pregnenolone can sometimes very quickly allow swollen tissues to release their water. This function is probably closely related to its antifibromatogenic function, since swelling and leaking set the stage for fibrosis"



These quotes are from "Water: Swelling,......"
 

tomisonbottom

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Thanks, I have upped the progesterone massively and I'm in no pain right now, am walking around but I also had the fluid drained which instantly helped, so it's probably a combo of those things.
I was taking melatonin for sleep until recently when I read that it increases stress hormones so hopefully being off of that will help somewhat.
 

HDD

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"Buy gelatin and start using it in everything you drink. Coffee is best for me because it dissolves more easily in hot drinks. It will lower your stress symptoms and counter tryptophan. It (with egg shell powder) will make the arthritis disappear. (I wouldn't have said it like that if I hadn't seen it first hand in so many women.) 

Orange Juice is important to increase magnesium. Some people take Epsom Salt baths and feel better immediately. You can use baking soda or aspirin in the bath. "

Hi Tom ; )'
Glad you are feeling better. The quote above is from Peatarian who was answering Spacehoppa at the time. Spacehoppa has RA. I think 4peats put a link to this thread up above. I think Sjpacehoppa is getting help now thru East West Healing. I remembered aspirin for bath being recommended. I thought it might help with pain but I am not sure if that is why it is used.
 

tomisonbottom

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Thank you, yeah, I am doing the gelatin and OJ, I read that post by peatatarian too. I am not supplementing calcium though because I wasn't sure if I needed to if I am eating cheese. I know too much calcium or too little can both be problems.......do you know how to tell if one needs more calcium?
 

4peatssake

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tomisonbottom said:
Thank you, yeah, I am doing the gelatin and OJ, I read that post by peatatarian too. I am not supplementing calcium though because I wasn't sure if I needed to if I am eating cheese. I know too much calcium or too little can both be problems.......do you know how to tell if one needs more calcium?
You can track your food and nutrient intake using something like Crononmeter online. I find it very useful in keeping track of calorie and nutrient intake as well as ratios of protein, carbs and fat.
http://cronometer.com/

Fit Day is another one I've used but I prefer Cronometer.
http://www.fitday.com/
 

tomisonbottom

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Thank you.
I was already using cronometer and I've used fitday before as well.

I know how to record what I'm eating I just didn't know how much I'm SUPPOSED to be eating of the different things, like calcium.
I read in a post today though 1000-1500 mg of calcium. Does that sound right?
 

Mittir

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tomisonbottom said:
Thank you.
I was already using cronometer and I've used fitday before as well.

I know how to record what I'm eating I just didn't know how much I'm SUPPOSED to be eating of the different things, like calcium.
I read in a post today though 1000-1500 mg of calcium. Does that sound right?

If your PTH is high then you will need 1500 mg to bring it down , You also need to have good level of vitamin D. He mentioned this number in interview with Josh on" Glycemia". He also gave tons of additional information on PTH in " Milk and calcium" with Josh and " Calcium and Phosphate" with KMUD. For your problem monitoring Vitamin D, PTH and blood calcium level is very important. It does not take long to lower PTH. Ratio of calcium to phosphorus is very important. You have to make sure their ratio is within 2:1 to 1:1, ideal is 1:1 as in milk ( Phosphorus: calcium) . Niacinamide, Vitamin A , Vitamin K also plays a role in lowering PTH. I think Endotoxin and PTH are two major factors in managing joint pain.

http://eastwesthealing.com/podcasts/ray-peat/
 

Spacehoppa

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Hi Tomisbottom, I've only just logged in and read this thread. I too have RA and fibro and Lyme. I have also found the same connections with progesterone deficiency and estrogen excess as you. I have some videos at www.youtube.com/ruthheasman where I talk about what I'm doing to try and get well.

That person who was saying walk it off is quite deluded, I agree. It's okay to stretch and walk when you'r joints aren't like balloons, but when they are that just leads to more joint destruction, and quickly! I know from experience.

One thing I have discovered is that for some reason steroids (prednisone and injections) cause my body to overproduce estrogen like crazy, resulting in bonkers high estrogen symptoms, such as involuntary twitching, difficulty breathing, digestive distress, dizziness, pain, joint swelling, headaches, and many more. I had to halve my oral steroid dose to get my estrogen levels down, (from 9mg/day to 4mg/day) and take it in split doses, one mg at a time! I say this because you mentioned using steroid injections to improve your arthritis, which they do, but have you ever noticed that when it begins to wear off you're in more pain than you were before the injection? I'd love to talk to you more. I'm sure we have a lot in common.
 

Poppyseed13

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Hello. For 15 years I have had incredible stiffness and joint pain--very difficult to walk in the morning, very stiff shoulders, walking a bit stilted. I ignored it for a long time--using ibuprofen to help with what I thought was inflammation.

But, since starting NDT (Thiryoid) last year (January 2013) I have had remarkable relief of this stiffness and joint pain (not total, but significant). I have noticed that as I increased my dose, my stiffness would lessen.... every time. So, the return of stiffness and pain is ONE indication that I need to increase my dose again.

After a year of taking NDT I am at 8 grains, and am still not at my optimal dose (recession of all hypothyroid symptoms) ...I hope that by the end of this year I will have found my optimal dose and the stiffness and joint pain will largely be a thing of the past.

Cheers,
Poppyseed13
 
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