Looking for Help With Severe Inflammation: Edema and Arthritis

Mossy

Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
2,043
Hello RPF,

My elderly father has developed severe edema and arthritis. After scouring this forum I've yet to find anyone with a success story for severe edema.

I've taken note of urea, salt, taurine, B1, progesterone, pregnenolone, electrolytes, calcium, magnesium, MB, as potential remedies.

I've read Ray's articles and listened to a podcast of his that mention salt and progesterone.

I've like to hear of any success stories, should there be any.

@Regina, @yerrag, @Philomath
I see you've dealt with the edema issue for a parent and was wondering if you have anything to share (if time and interest permits). Thank you.
 

Titanium

Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Messages
27
Hello RPF,

My elderly father has developed severe edema and arthritis. After scouring this forum I've yet to find anyone with a success story for severe edema.

I've taken note of urea, salt, taurine, B1, progesterone, pregnenolone, electrolytes, calcium, magnesium, MB, as potential remedies.

I've read Ray's articles and listened to a podcast of his that mention salt and progesterone.

I've like to hear of any success stories, should there be any.

@Regina, @yerrag, @Philomath
I see you've dealt with the edema issue for a parent and was wondering if you have anything to share (if time and interest permits). Thank you.
What kind of edema? Swelling of large joints (knees) but also fingers is quite common with reumatoïde arthritis. Unfortunately I know that all too well.
For RA treatment you can follow the Ray Peat advice; most important is to avoid PUFA's like hell, take a lot of vitamin D3 (5000iu), vitamin K2 & absorbable form of vitamin A (just the RDA - do not overdo the vitamin A), eat fruit & vegetables to get enough antioxidants, sufficient protein (80-100 gram/day, meat and eggs are ok, be careful with dairy as it can give a flare up of RA), for minerals take magnesium and boron (10mg). If you take zinc (15mg) balance with copper (2-3 mg). Instead of B1 alone take a multivitamin with all B vitamins. Avoid iron. Aspirin or NSAIDS will do not much but I can recommend to look for a doctor that is familiar with LDN (low-dose naltrexone) therapy. Low cost but very effective.
 

Phosphor

Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2021
Messages
202
Edema can also indicate kidney failure. What is the result of that test? If he has chronically full bladder, that can back up and put poisons in the system. Common at that age and they get so used to it that they don't realize it has gone over the top. Catheters are not fun but a friend of mine who "overdid" full bladder (out of his control) developed severe edema and also eczema that alleviated a LOT when he had a catheter for a few months (waiting on prostate surgery.)
 

Regina

Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2016
Messages
6,511
Location
Chicago
Hello RPF,

My elderly father has developed severe edema and arthritis. After scouring this forum I've yet to find anyone with a success story for severe edema.

I've taken note of urea, salt, taurine, B1, progesterone, pregnenolone, electrolytes, calcium, magnesium, MB, as potential remedies.

I've read Ray's articles and listened to a podcast of his that mention salt and progesterone.

I've like to hear of any success stories, should there be any.

@Regina, @yerrag, @Philomath
I see you've dealt with the edema issue for a parent and was wondering if you have anything to share (if time and interest permits). Thank you.
I like your thinking. It already seems you are thinking about hypertonic as restorative hydration.

Ray Peat has said that estrogen causes cells to take up water.
Haidut has posted about endotoxin and arthritis.

So maybe your list plus a coarse of minocycline? And the usual suspects: carot salad, bamboo shoots and cooked mushrooms.
 
OP
Mossy

Mossy

Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
2,043
What kind of edema? Swelling of large joints (knees) but also fingers is quite common with reumatoïde arthritis. Unfortunately I know that all too well.
For RA treatment you can follow the Ray Peat advice; most important is to avoid PUFA's like hell, take a lot of vitamin D3 (5000iu), vitamin K2 & absorbable form of vitamin A (just the RDA - do not overdo the vitamin A), eat fruit & vegetables to get enough antioxidants, sufficient protein (80-100 gram/day, meat and eggs are ok, be careful with dairy as it can give a flare up of RA), for minerals take magnesium and boron (10mg). If you take zinc (15mg) balance with copper (2-3 mg). Instead of B1 alone take a multivitamin with all B vitamins. Avoid iron. Aspirin or NSAIDS will do not much but I can recommend to look for a doctor that is familiar with LDN (low-dose naltrexone) therapy. Low cost but very effective.
I'm not certain of the kind of edema; I could guess that the arthritis is rheumatoid. I have no means of diagnosis beyond the obvious symptoms: my father hates doctors more than me; so, basically I'm his doctor.

I have listened to Peat on a radio show about progesterone applied topically for RA, but I'm hesitant due to how progesterone makes me feel. I know my father won't like any altered state, which the progesterone will produce. I do know that the worse he gets the more willing he'll be to trying it.

I've tried to convince my dad to avoid PUFAs, but it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks.

I've read elsewhere on this forum that someone's edema was made worse with vitamin D. I do have vitamin D on my list though.

I appreciate your time and interest. I am considering all that you've suggested. Thank you.
 
Last edited:
OP
Mossy

Mossy

Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
2,043
Edema can also indicate kidney failure. What is the result of that test? If he has chronically full bladder, that can back up and put poisons in the system. Common at that age and they get so used to it that they don't realize it has gone over the top. Catheters are not fun but a friend of mine who "overdid" full bladder (out of his control) developed severe edema and also eczema that alleviated a LOT when he had a catheter for a few months (waiting on prostate surgery.)
I have read about kidneys being involved elsewhere, so I'll look to supporting that organ. My father will not go to the doctor, so I don't have any official tests.

Interesting about the full bladder causing problems. So, the same faulty function that retains water in the tissues is keeping the bladder from releasing all the urine? I've read about using a diuretic for edema—I'm considering taurine for my father.

Thank you for the input.
 
Last edited:
OP
Mossy

Mossy

Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
2,043
I like your thinking. It already seems you are thinking about hypertonic as restorative hydration.

Ray Peat has said that estrogen causes cells to take up water.
Haidut has posted about endotoxin and arthritis.

So maybe your list plus a coarse of minocycline? And the usual suspects: carot salad, bamboo shoots and cooked mushrooms.
Good idea about the antibiotic. Being that my father will not go to the doctor and get a prescription, I'll look for an OTC way; and, maybe even a Mexican pharmacy for the real stuff.

My father is quite set in his ways: at this point he's rejecting the "usual suspects".

Thank you for the reply and suggestions.
 

Regina

Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2016
Messages
6,511
Location
Chicago
Good idea about the antibiotic. Being that my father will not go to the doctor and get a prescription, I'll look for an OTC way; and, maybe even a Mexican pharmacy for the real stuff.

My father is quite set in his ways: at this point he's rejecting the "usual suspects".

Thank you for the reply and suggestions.
You could try fish antibiotics.
 

yerrag

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
10,883
Location
Manila
You could try fish antibiotics.
If it's tetracycline, be sure not to take it as a powder. It leeches the enamel and stains your teeth. I have stains from taking doxy dating as far back as 3 years ago.

While Ray Peat favors this class of antibiotic, I haven't found it helpful. I recently used tetracycline and a risk of using it is that it could cause some bacteria to turn into cell wall deficient (CWD) forms, and could cause bacteria to pleomorph into more pathogenic fungal forms. This I learned from a book written by Lida Mattman.

I could not be certain, shortly after taking tetracycline, and using industrial potassium citrate as a supplement, which is made from a fungus called aspergillus niger, I developed a fever and I contracted hemolytic symptoms that were similar to dengue/malaria. It was parasitic, but the parasite was fungal, which I suspect developed from bacteria pleomorphing into a fungal parasite.

But thanks to that experience, I have changed from the love of antibiotics I developed following Peat's ideas into favoring alternate approaches such as isopathy and the use of emf zappers a la Hulda Clark, Robert Beck, and Royal Rife.

Ray Peat, while being spot on with his ideas on metabolism being foundational for our health, still plies around the inner fringe of mainstream medicine. Although he has touched briefly on the use of bacteriophages, which shows he is familiar with pleomorphism, it is far outside the mainstream that I feel he does not want to lose his core audience going into a 180° turn for pleomorphism. Still, his ideas do not conflict with the precepts of terrain theory, the partner to pleomorphism.
 

yerrag

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
10,883
Location
Manila
@Mossy Could you give an idea of your dad's context and history? There are many causes to edema and to arthritis, and it's not easy to suggest an approach that is most suitable to your dad. I've resolved my mom's edema around her knees when I was taking care of her, and it wasn't so difficult when I look back. All I did was to give her good nutrition along the lines that would be consistent with Ray Peat's ideas. I also resolved my own edema around my ankles, and in my case it had to do with bacterial and fungal causes. Separately, a longstanding knee pain that I could call arthritic got resolved by happenstance, when I was trying to improve my blood sugar regulation, and it turned out the TCM formula I was taking was able to deactivate enzymes produced by bacteria. The enzymes were producing metabolites that would accumulate around my knees and cause an autoimmune response that creates inflammation.
 
OP
Mossy

Mossy

Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
2,043
@Mossy Could you give an idea of your dad's context and history? There are many causes to edema and to arthritis, and it's not easy to suggest an approach that is most suitable to your dad. I've resolved my mom's edema around her knees when I was taking care of her, and it wasn't so difficult when I look back. All I did was to give her good nutrition along the lines that would be consistent with Ray Peat's ideas. I also resolved my own edema around my ankles, and in my case it had to do with bacterial and fungal causes. Separately, a longstanding knee pain that I could call arthritic got resolved by happenstance, when I was trying to improve my blood sugar regulation, and it turned out the TCM formula I was taking was able to deactivate enzymes produced by bacteria. The enzymes were producing metabolites that would accumulate around my knees and cause an autoimmune response that creates inflammation.
Thank you for the reply and I'm sorry for the long delay—life has been busy.

My father is 88 and has a history of very good health: I can remember two occasions of him ever being sick and that was just a minor cold. Due to his good track record, he never understood what I was going through 10 years back with hypothyroid and chronic fatigue—now he does. And now he is willing to listen where prior he was not. He actually allowed me to put a small dose of progesterone on his knee, which is indeed proof of his poor state (his willingness to try things). The progesterone did seem to bring some relief but also some side effects: a small nightmare. So, he said he'd like to try other things before trying that again. I did give him a couple doses of methylene blue in vitamin C on the same day as the progesterone, but I believe it was the progesterone that caused the mental/chemical effect.

That will be motivating for my dad, to pass along that simply changing diet helped your mom. Especially so, because I've been recommending the low pufa approach, which he actually has started. So, I guess you can teach an old (and in pain) dog new tricks.

Can you share some specifics on the TCM formula and blood sugar regulation approach that worked for you?

EDIT: I should add that in my dad's older age joint problems did come about years back but nothing like this current problem. So, that aside, he's had very good health.
 
OP
Mossy

Mossy

Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
2,043
You could try fish antibiotics.
Is your thought that fish antibiotics are easier to get a hold of, and would you feel they would be just as effective? (And sorry for the long delay in my response.)
 
OP
Mossy

Mossy

Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
2,043
@Mossy Could you give an idea of your dad's context and history? There are many causes to edema and to arthritis, and it's not easy to suggest an approach that is most suitable to your dad. I've resolved my mom's edema around her knees when I was taking care of her, and it wasn't so difficult when I look back. All I did was to give her good nutrition along the lines that would be consistent with Ray Peat's ideas. I also resolved my own edema around my ankles, and in my case it had to do with bacterial and fungal causes. Separately, a longstanding knee pain that I could call arthritic got resolved by happenstance, when I was trying to improve my blood sugar regulation, and it turned out the TCM formula I was taking was able to deactivate enzymes produced by bacteria. The enzymes were producing metabolites that would accumulate around my knees and cause an autoimmune response that creates inflammation.
I should also add that my dad most likely had the omicron variant of Covid, back in January; and though he recovered from that, he's never been quite the same.
 

Regina

Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2016
Messages
6,511
Location
Chicago
Is your thought that fish antibiotics are easier to get a hold of, and would you feel they would be just as effective? (And sorry for the long delay in my response.)
Yes. Easy to get.

So far, my experience is good. But I have never taken a sustained course.
I might pop one when I feel off. Or if my dog seems blah and isn't eating.
I have a variety.
 
OP
Mossy

Mossy

Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
2,043
Yes. Easy to get.

So far, my experience is good. But I have never taken a sustained course.
I might pop one when I feel off. Or if my dog seems blah and isn't eating.
I have a variety.
Ok, good information to know. Thank you.
 

Titanium

Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Messages
27
Hello Mossy,
Does your father take dairy? For people with rheumatoid arthritis or other autoimmune diseases dairy is a double edged sword. The protein and the minerals in dairy are nutritious but undigested protein fragments can leak in the bloodstream and cause a flare up. I have a long history of severe RA and joint problems myself. The most severe flare up i got ever was after I took a bovine colostrum supplement for about a week. Last week I ate a lot of cheese and dairy and noticed swollen, puffy eyes. I have heard from other people that they get knee pain from cheese.
Regarding the protein fragments that possibly leak in the bloodstream, i don't have a pubmed article but there are books about it. Like 'Devil in the Milk: Illness, Health and the Politics of A1 and A2 Milk'. A range of serious illnesses is linked to a tiny protein fragment that is formed when we digest A1 beta-casein, a milk protein produced by many cows in the United States and northern European countries. Milk that contains A1 beta-casein is commonly known as A1 milk; milk that does not is called A2.
 

yerrag

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
10,883
Location
Manila
Thank you for the reply and I'm sorry for the long delay—life has been busy.

My father is 88 and has a history of very good health: I can remember two occasions of him ever being sick and that was just a minor cold. Due to his good track record, he never understood what I was going through 10 years back with hypothyroid and chronic fatigue—now he does. And now he is willing to listen where prior he was not. He actually allowed me to put a small dose of progesterone on his knee, which is indeed proof of his poor state (his willingness to try things). The progesterone did seem to bring some relief but also some side effects: a small nightmare. So, he said he'd like to try other things before trying that again. I did give him a couple doses of methylene blue in vitamin C on the same day as the progesterone, but I believe it was the progesterone that caused the mental/chemical effect.

That will be motivating for my dad, to pass along that simply changing diet helped your mom. Especially so, because I've been recommending the low pufa approach, which he actually has started. So, I guess you can teach an old (and in pain) dog new tricks.

Can you share some specifics on the TCM formula and blood sugar regulation approach that worked for you?

EDIT: I should add that in my dad's older age joint problems did come about years back but nothing like this current problem. So, that aside, he's had very good health.
Thanks for providing a bit of a history on your dad's health. Can I assume that your dad has had no overweight nor obesity issues? That his issues were recent, and that he didn't get vaxed, and that he lives with you and not in a nursing home?

Does he take any prescription medication? What indication do you have about his thyroid status? Does he have a full set of teeth? Does he have periodontitis? Does he have root canals?
Could you share a recent CBC?

The TCM I use has an herb called Huang Lian, which has berberine. I had used berberine as well and the herb itself. Recently I used a formula called San Huang Xie Xin Tang which contains the herb also. The brand Sun Ten from Taiwan is a good one. I bought it though from acuatlanta.net which is based in the US.
 
Joined
Mar 10, 2021
Messages
21,494
Read through this thread for some ideas…

 

Lejeboca

Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2017
Messages
1,039
I should also add that my dad most likely had the omicron variant of Covid, back in January; and though he recovered from that, he's never been quite the same.
I'd focus on clearing this up first. Artemisia annua and thuja are specific for this. Tinctures. Start w/1 drop of each 3x per day for a few days. If gets better increase dose gradually to 3dr 3x. If worsens, decrease to 1dr. 1x. But do not stop for a weei. Else continue 1dr 3x for about two weeks.

The above two herbs should help with joint infl. too.

Additionally for joints w/swelling try symphitum 200c (homeopathic) 1 pellet
1x. Or symphitum salve or leaf taped to the joint.

Aspirin helps too, btw.

Parsley is good for kidneys, gravel root too.
 
OP
Mossy

Mossy

Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
2,043
Hello Mossy,
Does your father take dairy? For people with rheumatoid arthritis or other autoimmune diseases dairy is a double edged sword. The protein and the minerals in dairy are nutritious but undigested protein fragments can leak in the bloodstream and cause a flare up. I have a long history of severe RA and joint problems myself. The most severe flare up i got ever was after I took a bovine colostrum supplement for about a week. Last week I ate a lot of cheese and dairy and noticed swollen, puffy eyes. I have heard from other people that they get knee pain from cheese.
Regarding the protein fragments that possibly leak in the bloodstream, i don't have a pubmed article but there are books about it. Like 'Devil in the Milk: Illness, Health and the Politics of A1 and A2 Milk'. A range of serious illnesses is linked to a tiny protein fragment that is formed when we digest A1 beta-casein, a milk protein produced by many cows in the United States and northern European countries. Milk that contains A1 beta-casein is commonly known as A1 milk; milk that does not is called A2.
Hello, yes he does eat dairy: milk and cheese. Thank you for sharing this. I will add it to my list of things and consider having him try A2 milk to see if there is any relief.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom