Aromatase Inhibitors

[haidut]

@haidut do you think its advisable to regularly check blood prolactin levels while on bromo or cabergolin to not fall too low in prolactin?

I would not test more often than once a month. Getting regular blood draws can itself cause stress hormones like prolactin to rise and if done every 2 weeks it will even elevate LDH considerably to the shock and dismay of most doctors who would not be wise enough to consider the excessive blood draws as a reason. @Such_Saturation posted something about this I think.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I would not test more often than once a month. Getting regular blood draws can itself cause stress hormones like prolactin to rise and if done every 2 weeks it will even elevate LDH considerably to the shock and dismay of most doctors who would not be wise enough to consider the excessive blood draws as a reason. @Such_Saturation posted something about this I think.

Oh yes, I would get a draw two-three times a month for some time and half of my arm would hurt... and some people I know can't even donate blood one single time because their veins are so fragile (older women).

 

[yourke]

Hi, thought about starting a new thread (new member), but might as well post it here.
aromatase inhibitors block the neuroprotective effects of pregnenolone and DHEA? any thoughts. Maybe the aromatase inhibitors are toxic to these hormones (maybe small amounts of estradiol are needed?).

The study concluded
These findings suggest that estradiol formation by aromatase mediates neuroprotective effects of pregnenolone and DHEA against excitotoxic-induced neuronal death in the hippocampus.

J Neurobiol. 2003 Sep 15;56(4):398-406.
Neuroprotection by the steroids pregnenolone and dehydroepiandrosterone is mediated by the enzyme aromatase.
Veiga S1, Garcia-Segura LM, Azcoitia I.

Maybe better to use natural inhibitors (orange juice, pomegranate )

 

[skycop00]

I cam tell you this....I have been on TRT for 8 years and my DHEA has been in the tank and very low even when we tried sublingual DHEA. Estradiol has to be controlled with arimidex. Although, I use only 0.25 mg per week as the diet and Calcium D glucarate assists greatly

 

[skycop00]

Thought I'd share as I had my last Testosterone Cypionate Injection 8 days ago. I started Clomid @ 12.5mg and 0.25 mg 3 days ago. This morning the libido came back like a schoolboy. REM Sleep Wood in the early AM .... JUST WOKE ME UP. Anyway, this is the drive I had intermittently over the last 8 years of TRT. I will keep you in the loop if anyone is interested. The dosing I am filing is clomid EOD 12.5mg and Arimidex @ 0.25 2x per week.

 

[James_001]

Thought I'd share as I had my last Testosterone Cypionate Injection 8 days ago. I started Clomid @ 12.5mg and 0.25 mg 3 days ago. This morning the libido came back like a schoolboy. REM Sleep Wood in the early AM .... JUST WOKE ME UP. Anyway, this is the drive I had intermittently over the last 8 years of TRT. I will keep you in the loop if anyone is interested. The dosing I am filing is clomid EOD 12.5mg and Arimidex @ 0.25 2x per week.

Please keep updating us, thanks.

How long do you plan on using this protocol for?

 

[skycop00]

Please keep updating us, thanks.

How long do you plan on using this protocol for?

Well that's a good question. I will go atleast 12 weeks and as soon as the HCG arrives I will dose very high like 3000-4000 IU every 3 days for atleast 8 weeks. At the 12 week point I will gradually come off products and then retest blood levels. If I crash and do not sustain a healthy level of T and other hormones, then I will have to decide what to do. I will either go back on TRT or return to Clomid and or a combination of Arimidex. That's the plan for now...

 

[Koveras]

Well that's a good question. I will go atleast 12 weeks and as soon as the HCG arrives I will dose very high like 3000-4000 IU every 3 days for atleast 8 weeks. At the 12 week point I will gradually come off products and then retest blood levels. If I crash and do not sustain a healthy level of T and other hormones, then I will have to decide what to do. I will either go back on TRT or return to Clomid and or a combination of Arimidex. That's the plan for now...

I think the clomid is unnecessary and potentially harmful, although if you are waiting for the hCG and having nothing else ATM that is probably your best bet in the mean time.

I think a good plan might be:

Weeks 0-8
-hCG & hMG (3x weekly)
-Low dose & infrequent aromatase inhibitor (once or twice weekly)
-Vitamin E (high dose daily)
-Taurine
-Optional dopamine agonist
-NO Aspirin

Weeks 8+
-Dopamine agonist
-Aspirin (600mg/day)
-Vitamin E
-Taurine
-Optional low dose & infrequent aromatase inhibitor

 

[skycop00]

Thanks for the reply. I have heard of HMG, but not in a PCT. This is good. Now I need to find some...! What dose of Vitamin E would you recommend? No Aspirin week zero - 8....Interesting... I have some research to do? Have you known anyone to use this protocol successfully?

I found this...
Does HMG really work?
So often we hear about various different drugs and the science for them is sound, but real world evidence is lacking. There are a few studies performed on HMG over the last 25 years, and I would like to draw your attention to two of these studies, pointing out a few key details. The first goes back to 1985 by Ley & Leonard and is an important study as it looks at males who had previously encountered AAS treatment (treatment for low hormone levels including mainly testosterone). This study is available online and I encourage you to read it in more detail than the brief summary I will provide here.

They looked at 13 hypogonadotropic men all of who had undetectable levels of LH/FSH, lower than normal levels of testosterone and azoospermia, thus were unable to currently conceive. Obviously with the low hormonal levels there were issues with libido as well. Furthermore, there were instances where upon testis biopsies, Leydig cells were completely absent. Despite this, all 13 men responded to treatment with HCG with increasing testosterone levels. However, upon addition of HMG treatment, most men saw a further increase in testosterone, sometimes very large. HCG was able to increase sperm counts in most men slightly; however, only upon addition of HMG were sperm counts above 'normal' fertility levels (i.e. 20 million per ml) observed. The study indicates that the addition of HMG therapy surpasses any level that HCG treatment could achieve alone. Admittedly this is a particular subset of men who have medical conditions and abnormal hormone issues, but the results are interesting nonetheless.

The second is more recent by Buchter et al in 1998. This is even more interesting from the point of view that it looks at three times the number of cases as the previous study and in a different manner. Again, this study can be found online and I encourage you to read it. The most interesting result you could take away from this study is that in the group of men treated who suffered from hypopituitarism, all 21 treated with HCG/HMG achieved spermatogenesis and a large proportion (81%) was able to successfully achieve pregnancies. The discussion of this article is most interesting as it raises the points from its own study and the literature that many in the field believe that to achieve spermatogenesis and pregnancy in a gonadotropin-compromised individual requires combinational therapy of HCG and HMG. The important point to note is that HCG is not sufficient alone in many cases.

Given the fact that other studies point to HMG increasing endogenous testosterone further than HCG can, as those who have relatively 'normal' pituitaries but have compromised their function due to AAS use, it would be wise to consider the use of HMG. This would not only be for purposes of fertility, but to induce natural testosterone levels back to normal values when they have been suppressed. Treatment in this latest study was the use of HCG twice per week at 1000-2500IU per dose (Mon-Fri) and HMG three times per week at 75-150IU (Mon-Wed-Fri). Thus for bodybuilders seeking to regain fertility, spermatogenesis and restore natural testosterone levels but wishing to keep costs down, a weekly dose of the lower ends should be employed for at least one month.

A schedule would involve:
Monday: 1000-1500IU HCG + 75IU HMG
Wednesday: 75IU HMG
Friday: 1000-1500IU HCG + 75IU HMG

Depending on the amount of suppression this cycle may need to be lengthened for a further period. Please note this information is for hypothetical purposes and neither I nor MuscleTalk recommends the use of any prescription medicines without the consultation of a qualified physician.

 

[skycop00]

HMG is expensive for sure...these are 75IU @ $38 an injection x 225IU / week x 8 weeks = $114/ week x 8 weeks = $912....

 

[skycop00]

As fertility is not an issue for me anymore...seems HMG may not be indicated...Your thoughts??

 

[Koveras]

As fertility is not an issue for me anymore...seems HMG may not be indicated...Your thoughts??

I think especially when you testes have been inactive for so long, there is some rationale to bringing as many cells back as possible with an FSH analogue initially

In regards to aspirin - beneficial for testosterone production in a normal setting, but not from hCG

Aspirin inhibits androgen response to chorionic gonadotropin in humans. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[skycop00]

Beautiful...thank you! Now if I can find it reasonably...

 

[Koveras]

Thanks for the reply. I have heard of HMG, but not in a PCT. This is good. Now I need to find some...! What dose of Vitamin E would you recommend? No Aspirin week zero - 8....Interesting... I have some research to do? Have you known anyone to use this protocol successfully?

1.5-3grams Vitamin E

Vitamin E is an estrogen receptor antagonist

Vitamin E raises testosterone in rodents and humans

 

[skycop00]

Getty Up!!!

 

[Bulletproof?]

Thought I'd share as I had my last Testosterone Cypionate Injection 8 days ago. I started Clomid @ 12.5mg and 0.25 mg 3 days ago. This morning the libido came back like a schoolboy. REM Sleep Wood in the early AM .... JUST WOKE ME UP. Anyway, this is the drive I had intermittently over the last 8 years of TRT. I will keep you in the loop if anyone is interested. The dosing I am filing is clomid EOD 12.5mg and Arimidex @ 0.25 2x per week.

1.5-3grams Vitamin E

Vitamin E is an estrogen receptor antagonist

Vitamin E raises testosterone in rodents and humans

This thread is EXTREMELY interesting!!! What do you think of the protocol posted by @skycop00 A schedule would involve:
Monday: 1000-1500IU HCG + 75IU HMG
Wednesday: 75IU HMG
Friday: 1000-1500IU HCG + 75IU HMG

 

[Koveras]

This thread is EXTREMELY interesting!!! What do you think of the protocol posted by @skycop00 A schedule would involve:
Monday: 1000-1500IU HCG + 75IU HMG
Wednesday: 75IU HMG
Friday: 1000-1500IU HCG + 75IU HMG

Seems fine/reasonable.

I think if you can establish that you get an increase in the size of your testes from hCG/hMG stimulation over 3-4 weeks or so, that is a good indication that the potential for recovery is there provided most other things in the lifestyle are in order.

 

[skycop00]

Seems fine/reasonable.

I think if you can establish that you get an increase in the size of your testes from hCG/hMG stimulation over 3-4 weeks or so, that is a good indication that the potential for recovery is there provided most other things in the lifestyle are in order.

Agreed. So many variables. But I have nothing to lose at this point.

 

[skycop00]

Ok so 6 weeks after my start (Started Clomid 6/4) here is what has transpired: The first 3 weeks on Clomid and the above protocol minus (HMG) was fine. I felt pretty good and didn't feel like Testosterone had dropped. Sense of well-being was still good up to that point! At the start of week 4 I am assuming the last bit of Test Cypionate was gone and I was starting to feel down! By week 5 I was feeling just aweful and started to feel slight depression starting. By week 6 I gave up. I went back on Testosterone at 60mg with 300IU HCG and kept up with supplements. Withing 12 hours I felt pretty damn good again. Sense of well being had returned and low grade depression gone. That's all I needed to remind me how bad I felt when I went on testosterone. So I will stay on about 100mg divided in 2 doses per week. This may not completely shut me down as in the past I noticed even on a low dose, I had upper 900's on my T levels.

There was something about CLOMID that I did not like. Kind of like when a dog sniffs something they may want to eat and then they turn away as it would not be good for them...almost like they can sense "DO NOT EAT THAT". Similar for me with Clomid...very strange for me.

That's my journey so far folks...I will come back if I make any great strides....

 

[Parsifal]

When I've studied bodybuilding nutrition, I've noticed that some people say that NO increases testosterone and they try to increase testosterone indirectly by increasing NO. I wonder if testosterone also can increase NO in the opposite direction.
Peat also said that oestrogens can raise libido in some cases. So is the morning wood coming from high NO because there is a relation between testosterone and NO?