Why are there so many people who are not able to raise their copper levels ?

[Motif]

I don't have all of this figured out but:

I think a big part of it is actually due to the Zinc-to-Copper ratio - this is something that Ray Peat doesn't seem to discuss much.

As a general rule: zinc can block copper absorption (and vice versa). All of the foods that Ray Peat recommends for copper (oysters, beef liver, to a lesser extent dairy) are usually much higher in zinc than copper - so the ratios are still not ideal if the goal is to increase your copper.

Also, land animal meat (ruminants) is generally much higher in zinc and much lower in copper. Whereas, fish is usually higher in copper and lower in zinc.

Lots of meat consumption, without white fish consumption to balance it out (or mushrooms and some plant foods), can lead to high zinc and low copper.

Morley Robbins discusses this frequently, for what it's worth (I know he isn't too popular here). Frank Tufano also has a quite interesting introductory video on YT called "Understanding Zinc to Copper Ratio" (again, he's probably not too popular around here - but it could give you some further ideas to check out) - apologies, I cannot link the video due to being a new member to the forum.

A recent thread on Honey mentions it increased serum copper. -"Honey reduced serum immunoglobulin E by 34% and increased serum copper by 33%"

If that's what you're after then could be something looking into. - Honey speeds up metabolism and recovery in bone fracture

How much honey and which one?

My issue is that I also have low zinc , so it’s way more complicated.

Serum zinc deficiency , but whole blood zinc is perfect. Whatever this means . Nobody can tell me.

 

[youngsinatra]

I think the RCP‘s theory of copper is fascinating, but I know too many people who didn’t improve their copper on it and got themselves into even worse states of health, even if they stick to it perfectly for a long time.

I‘ve seen @Daniil raised his chronically low ceruloplasmin to the normal range by a low vitamin A and low copper diet.

 

[Daniil]

I also donated blood. I ate a lot of sugar and honey.

But if you think that a low level of cerruloplasmin is the cause of your symptoms - I don't think it is. My symptoms do not correlate with the level of cerruloplasmin.

Also, I don't think anyone on this forum has a deficiency of zinc or copper or another mineral (except maybe calcium). The body regulates the levels of minerals for some reasons of its own.

 

[Tim Lundeen]

I think the RCP‘s theory of copper is fascinating, but I know too many people who didn’t improve their copper on it and got themselves into even worse states of health, even if they stick to it perfectly for a long time.

Had the same experience -- tried Morley's protocol, and didn't see any benefit, and some things got worse until I added more zinc in the PM.

I've started trying MitoSynergy and so far am liking it, very positive so far, but it's only been a week.

I do really like Morley's new book, though. Incredibly useful information, even if I don't agree with some of his interpretations of the data, and some of his protocol recommendations. Amazon product ASIN 1662910282View: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1662910282/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[rayban]

I can't eat honey, i have some sort of allergy to it.

 

[Nebula]

I also donated blood. I ate a lot of sugar and honey.

But if you think that a low level of cerruloplasmin is the cause of your symptoms - I don't think it is. My symptoms do not correlate with the level of cerruloplasmin.

Also, I don't think anyone on this forum has a deficiency of zinc or copper or another mineral (except maybe calcium). The body regulates the levels of minerals for some reasons of its own.

I think you can often be deficient in quite a few minerals in a catabolic state, but supplementing minerals won’t likely fix deficiencies when you’re catabolic. You need to get into an anabolic state somehow. Find a source of calories that you tolerate well and gradually increase it until your metabolism adjusts to the higher calories. No need to push it too high just high enough to not be catabolic.Then the mineral transporter proteins should work much better. Mineral rich diet and maybe a small amount of supplement be enough.

 

[Kayaker]

I think the RCP‘s theory of copper is fascinating, but I know too many people who didn’t improve their copper on it and got themselves into even worse states of health, even if they stick to it perfectly for a long time.

I‘ve seen @Daniil raised his chronically low ceruloplasmin to the normal range by a low vitamin A and low copper diet.

Why would ceruloplasmin go up from low copper and low vitamin A?

Induction of ceruloplasmin synthesis by retinoic acid in rats: influence of dietary copper and vitamin A status - PubMed

Ceruloplasmin, a copper-containing acute phase plasma protein, has been shown to be regulated by 13-cis retinoic acid in rats. Ceruloplasmin activity was significantly increased within 24 h and remained elevated for at least 72 h after a single injection of 13-cis retinoic acid. With daily...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I think it's more likely to have been from blood donations.

 

[Daniil]

I also don't think it's the result of vitamin A depletion either, it hasn't been long. I still have symptoms of hypervitaminosis.

But I do not believe that VA is needed for the synthesis of cerruloplasmin and anything other than, perhaps, the treatment of xerophthalmia.

 

[Motif]

I also don't think it's the result of vitamin A depletion either, it hasn't been long. I still have symptoms of hypervitaminosis.

But I do not believe that VA is needed for the synthesis of cerruloplasmin and anything other than, perhaps, the treatment of xerophthalmia.

How often did you donate til it improved?
What were your iron and ferritin levels before ?

 

[Daniil]

I had ferritin 106. I lowered it to 68 with a couple of bloodletting. It's 32 now.

How often did you donate til it improved?
What were your iron and ferritin levels before ?

But I corresponded with one person, he says that bloodletting did not help him.

 

[Kayaker]

I had ferritin 106. I lowered it to 68 with a couple of bloodletting. It's 32 now.
But I corresponded with one person, he says that bloodletting did not help him.

Just donating a pint of blood twice caused your ferritin to go from 106 to 68?

Why did it drop from 68 to 32?

Did Peat ever mention what a good ferritin level is to aim for?

 

[Daniil]

Why did it drop from 68 to 32?

I'm not sure why. Maybe it was supplements of B1, or vitamin E, or bleeding in my intestines, or the result of a diet with low vitamin A. This drop occurred in about 2 months. I stopped taking VE and B1.

caused your ferritin to go from 106 to 68?

Yes.

 

[Daniil]

Did Peat ever mention what a good ferritin level is to aim for?

I don't know.

 

[Apple]

I can't eat honey, i have some sort of allergy to it.

Did you try honey from different suppliers ?
I once bought honey from so called "organic" supplier and one teaspoon made my kidneys ache. Some honeys don't feel good on my stomach.
But there are types of honey which don't cause any issues.

 

[Dave Clark]

Another perspective is that a compound like mercury, which many people have in their bodies from food, amalgams, vaccines, etc. will displace copper and iron in the cell, which will cause the cell to not make ATP and mess up the ETC. This is a cause of dysregulation of these minerals, which to many people will look like deficiency or overload. The displaced minerals will become free and form hydroxyl radicals, as well. Dr. Haley talks about this in the video, and mentions how his wife's alleged 'anemia' was fixed just by getting the mercury out of her system.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5wKvvhv7SA

 

[rayban]

Another perspective is that a compound like mercury, which many people have in their bodies from food, amalgams, vaccines, etc. will displace copper and iron in the cell, which will cause the cell to not make ATP and mess up the ETC. This is a cause of dysregulation of these minerals, which to many people will look like deficiency or overload. The displaced minerals will become free and form hydroxyl radicals, as well. Dr. Haley talks about this in the video, and mentions how his wife's alleged 'anemia' was fixed just by getting the mercury out of her system.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5wKvvhv7SA

How do you measure the levels of heavy metals? I had a hair test back then and I had no high metals, but mineral ratios were all over the place. Apparently its not as easy as looking at the lines, you must measure a insane amount of ratios so it was inclusive because I dont know how to interpet these tests.

 

[BibleBeliever]

Another way to look at it, the damage of cytochrome oxidase enyzme by excess blue light, and red light/sunlight deficiency.

Aging Eyes, Infant Eyes, and Excitable Tissues

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

"Cytochrome oxidase is one of the enzymes damaged by stress and by blue light, and activated or restored by red light, thyroid, and progesterone. It's a copper enzyme, so it's likely to be damaged by excess iron. It is most active when it is associated with a mitochondrial lipid, cardiolipin, that contains saturated palmitic acid; the substitution of polyunsaturated fats lowers its activity. Mitochonrial function in general is poisoned by the unsaturated fats, especially arachidonic acid and DHA."

 

[Motif]

Just got my newest results in.

Zink in wholeblood and Serum good.

Copper deficient in serum and whole blood.
Ceruloplasmin deficient.


I do eat high copper and stopped zinc supplements two weeks ago.

I bet my copper levels will still be low next time without any improvement.


What could I try to raise them ?

 

[BigShoes]

Just got my newest results in.

Zink in wholeblood and Serum good.

Copper deficient in serum and whole blood.
Ceruloplasmin deficient.


I do eat high copper and stopped zinc supplements two weeks ago.

I bet my copper levels will still be low next time without any improvement.


What could I try to raise them ?

Where are you getting your copper from? If it is from liver and oysters only, then it is possibly that you will maintain a high imbalance in zinc to copper (higher zinc relative to copper) which will impair absorption. See my previous comment about the Zinc to Copper ratio in certain foods - it could steer you in the right direction.

Edit: also to add, I wouldn't pay too much attention to serum levels - blood levels are far more accurate for minerals / metals and even then, they are not perfect - it is tissue levels that are more significant, but these are difficult to test...

 

[Motif]

Where are you getting your copper from? If it is from liver and oysters only, then it is possibly that you will maintain a high imbalance in zinc to copper (higher zinc relative to copper) which will impair absorption. See my previous comment about the Zinc to Copper ratio in certain foods - it could steer you in the right direction.

Edit: also to add, I wouldn't pay too much attention to serum levels - blood levels are far more accurate for minerals / metals and even then, they are not perfect - it is tissue levels that are more significant, but these are difficult to test...

Serum and whole blood. Could I only test whole blood in future? Would save some money.


I tied oysters months ago and it didn’t work.

It’s from supplements , liver and potatoes mostly. Sometimes mushrooms.