What Does A Serotonin/estrogen Dominant Society Behave/look Like

[uuy8778yyi]

many people buckle under the stress of society

 

[honeybee]

M

basically a suicidal , depressed, slave population, who are incredibly invested in their ego, identity and themselves

also a lack of awareness seems to be a problem.

basically the opposite of LSD

Lots of that here in this forum. And everywhere I look in this world.

 

[tara]

Robert Sapolsky's work shows that being in the lower social class can lead to higher levels of cortisol and worse health overall. And being in the upper social class can have a health protective effects.

I think there is also evidence that in more egalitarian societies (ie where the difference between the highest and lowest pay rates is less), health (and lots of other social parameters) are better not only for the poorer people, but also for the wealthier.

 

[pboy]

its as simple as cortisol basically ruins health, even with a good diet. it suppresses growth, thoughts, creativity, sleep, immune system, GI function, including bowel, and kidneys and bladder. Basically if guys simply stopped being douches and girls didn't nag or start drama, and no one postured or carried out some fake ego for whatever reason, everyone's health right away would tremendously go up.
Some Asian cultures kind of prove it, they might work hard and have non optimal diet, but people there are straight up with each other and more cool in general, they don't fear each other like westerners do and always have to look out to be huckstered and taken advantage of. Native americans are an even better example, there was no such thing as classes, everyone was healthy without medicine...they might get physically injured or rub some poisonous plant or get bit or something, that was it. Its as much a spiritual concept as it is a tangible big deal, and health factor, but actually being loving, open and not a douche basically is better for everyone on every level, if everyone simply did that, things would pretty much pan out to being very very good, at least not bad, or no one could complain about anything other than life itself
The entire neurotic health and in general, mindset and way of behaving, that most people have, all has to do with lack of people being real, and instead constant cortisol in public situations and even in peoples homes all from neurotic mask full of false philosophies and beliefs garbage people live by and hide. Step one is people being real with themselves and others..this is what I know and have experienced, maybe this maybe that, and then say they really aren't sure or don't know about other things, and realize we're all kind o strangers to an extent in life itself. No one knows whats really going on, we're here, and no one wants to suffer or be in stress, and people wanna feel good and have fun and ..feel really good. That's the common goal, hiding from that or acting like its something else just stalls everything, when people don't even realize that about themselves, they cant realize it about others, and realize how simple it is to actually live by that and that if everyone did that, people would be really cool and not ever bs anything, and in general cortisol and stress would nearly vanish other than actual environmental life challenges like weather and stuff

 

[SQu]

From what I've read, Hunter gatherers are egalitarian, have more free time as they have to work less hard to survive, and are found to be ingenious, creative and flexible thinkers while we are less open and more narrow. I blame the agricultural revolution. The first one! Crop growing gave people for the first time something to lose, something to hoard, something to defend/desire; something to keep and pay soldiers with, a way to amass wealth and power and create class and unbalanced ownership of resources. Hunter gatherers might do better without succumbing to the new way but without their own armies they could be forced, overrun and enslaved by farmers. Since the farmers won we've had male deities and cruelty, malnutrition, specialization, governments and all the rest of it. Since we can't turn back the clock I think the best we can do is inform ourselves of the depth, subtlety and deep internalization of our distortion and enslavement by society and attempt to reintroduce personal control inasmuch as it's possible, considering that keeping us ignorant and brainwashed is the major means of control currently, stacks the deck against us and makes our attempts pretty feeble compared with what we could have been. that's my take on it, for what it's worth.

 

[you]

From what I've read, Hunter gatherers are egalitarian, have more free time as they have to work less hard to survive, and are found to be ingenious, creative and flexible thinkers while we are less open and more narrow. I blame the agricultural revolution. The first one! Crop growing gave people for the first time something to lose, something to hoard, something to defend/desire; something to keep and pay soldiers with, a way to amass wealth and power and create class and unbalanced ownership of resources. Hunter gatherers might do better without succumbing to the new way but without their own armies they could be forced, overrun and enslaved by farmers. Since the farmers won we've had male deities and cruelty, malnutrition, specialization, governments and all the rest of it. Since we can't turn back the clock I think the best we can do is inform ourselves of the depth, subtlety and deep internalization of our distortion and enslavement by society and attempt to reintroduce personal control inasmuch as it's possible, considering that keeping us ignorant and brainwashed is the major means of control currently, stacks the deck against us and makes our attempts pretty feeble compared with what we could have been. that's my take on it, for what it's worth.

Stop. Here's an article write by Ted Kaczynski (unabomber), disproving these falsehoods and myths.

http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ ... rimitivism

Another element of the anarchoprimitivist myth is the belief that hunter-gatherers, at least the nomadic ones, had gender equality

Among the Eskimos with whom Gontran de Poncins lived, husbands clearly held overt authority over their wives and sometimes beat them.

Much worse are the forced marriages of girls in their early teens to men much older than themselves.

Among the Siriono: “A woman is subservient to her husband”; [73] “The extended family is generally dominated by the oldest active male”; [74] “[Women] are dominated by the men”; [75] “If a man is out in the forest alone with a woman, ...he may throw her to the ground roughly and take his prize [sex] without so much as saying a word”; [76] Parents definitely preferred to have male children; [77] “Although the title ererekwa is reserved by the men for a chief, it one asks a woman: ‘who is your ererekwa?’ she will invariably reply: ‘my husband’.”

On free time

Whatever hunter-gatherers’ working hours may have been, much of their work was physically very strenuous. Siriono men typically covered about fifteen miles a day on their hunting excursions, and they sometimes covered as much as forty miles. [25] Covering such a distance in trackless wilderness [26] requires far more effort than covering the same distance over a road or a groomed trail.

Even picking wild fruit could be dangerous[29] and could take considerable work[30] for the Siriono. [31] The Siriono made little use of wild roots, [32] but it is well known that many hunter-gatherers relied heavily on roots for food. Usually, gathering edible roots in the wilderness is not like pulling carrots out of the soft, cultivated soil of a garden. More typically the ground is hard, or covered with tough sod that you have to hack through in order to get at the roots

I wish I could take certain anarchoprimitivists out in the mountains, show them where the edible roots grow, and invite them to get their dinner by digging for it. By the time they had enough yampa roots or camas bulbs for a halfway square meal, their blistered hands would disabuse them of any idea that primitives didn’t have to work for a living

Really good read that dispels a lot of myths and really shows some deep insight, here's a particularly interesting paragraph.

But leisure is a modern concept, and the emphasis that anarchoprimitivists put on it is evidence of their servitude to the values of the civilization that they claim to reject. The amount of time expended in work is not what matters. Many authors have discussed what is wrong with work in modern society, and I see no reason to go over that ground again. What does matter is that, apart from monotony, what is wrong with work in modern society is not wrong with the work of nomadic hunter-gatherers. The hunter-gatherer’s work is challenging, both in terms of physical effort and in terms of the level of skill required. [40] The hunter-gatherer’s work is purposeful, and its purpose is not abstract, remote, or artificial but concrete, very real, and directly important to the worker: He works to satisfy the physical needs of himself, his family, and other people to whom he is personally close. Above all, the nomadic hunter-gatherer is a free worker: He is not exploited, he is subservient to no boss, no one gives him orders; [41] he designs is own work-day, if not as an individual then as a member of a group that is small enough so that every individual can participate meaningfully in the decisions that are made [42]. Modern jobs tend to be psychologically stressful, but there are reasons to believe that primitive people’s work typically involved little psychological stress. [43] Hunter-gatherers’ work often monotonous, but it is my view that monotony generally causes primitive people relatively little discomfort. Boredom, I think, is largely a civilized phenomenon and is a product of psychological stresses that are characteristic of civilized life. This admittedly is a matter of personal opinion, I can ‘t prove it, and a discussion of it would take us beyond the scope of this article. Here I will only say that my opinion is based largely on my own experience of living outside the technoindustrial system. How hunter-gatherers felt about their own work is difficult to say, since anthropologists and others who visited primitive peoples (at least those whose reports I’ve read) usually do not seem to have asked such questions. But the following from Holmberg’s worth noting: “They are relatively apathetic to work (taba taba), which includes such distasteful tasks as housebuilding, gathering firewood, clearing, planting, and tilling of fields. In quite a different class, however, are such pleasant occupations as hunting (gwata gwata) and collecting (deka deka, ‘to look for’), which are regarded more as diversions than as work.” [44]

 

[SQu]

It is an insightful paragraph and one of those ways in which we can get perspective on our modern lives, which is valuable. Thank you.
Please note that I do not wish to argue as I find no value in it. This is just a viewpoint. To explain:I am not calling hunter gatherers gentle or totally without violence nor do I consider their lives perfect. We've moved beyond romanticizing. Presumably ,in like vein, you also do not mean to suggest that their societies are as unequal and violent as ours.

 

[cantstoppeating]

It wouldn't look like the capitalistic-toned videos posted in this thread.

High serotonin promotes reserved, helpless and submissive behaviour. The behaviour seen on wallstreet/capitalistic and similar environments is often the opposite i.e. can-do, achieving and proactive, hormonally it corresponds to high testosterone and low cortisol which can't be sustained by high serotonin or estrogen.

A high serotonin society would be very passive and reserved with a high intolerance to risk. Such a society wouldn't progress beyond industrialisation.

Obviously such a society doesn't exist because it only takes a few low serotonin/estrogen folks to push forward and pull up the rest of the high serotonin/estrogen folks with them.

 

[you]

It is an insightful paragraph and one of those ways in which we can get perspective on our modern lives, which is valuable. Thank you.
Please note that I do not wish to argue as I find no value in it. This is just a viewpoint. To explain:I am not calling hunter gatherers gentle or totally without violence nor do I consider their lives perfect. We've moved beyond romanticizing. Presumably ,in like vein, you also do not mean to suggest that their societies are as unequal and violent as ours.

Yea, I'm not trying to argue either, arguing gets you nowhere.

I'm sure there were some egalitarian hunter-gatherer tribes that worked little due to living in lucky conditions (abundant food, kind weather conditions, etc) and of course the opposite, violent and ruthless tribes living in horrible conditions. It's a whole spectrum, like today, we have a few prosperous countries and then in comparison to prosperous countries, we have countries that could be called Hell on Earth (working conditions in China, Thailand, Vietnam, etc Really puts our lives in perspective).

Suicide nets at Foxconn factory

 

[jaguar43]

Robert Sapolsky's work shows that being in the lower social class can lead to higher levels of cortisol and worse health overall. And being in the upper social class can have a health protective effects.

I think there is also evidence that in more egalitarian societies (ie where the difference between the highest and lowest pay rates is less), health (and lots of other social parameters) are better not only for the poorer people, but also for the wealthier.

I agree, however I think it still defeats the purpose of a more conscious orientated society. Or, work that is more purpose orientated.

Several years ago, in the quarterly publication Social Sciences, I noticed an article by a man whose specialty was exploring the future of work; he projected a future in which a person's desire for growth and exploration is realized in his work. This person's job was to clarify the changes that must be made in the "economy" so that it will serve humanity--the workers and consumers--instead of vice versa.

Previously, in Mind and Tissue, I had briefly discussed some Soviet views on labor: That work tends toward percep- tion, as machines become available; politics, work, culture, and science interpenetrate; brain function, education, science, and work have much in common--an emphasis on purpose and goals, deep reorganization, and complex perceptual inter- action with the material. P. K. Anokhin and A. A. Ukhtom- skii, and their students have created a sound basis for the role of goals and future thinking.

The attitude toward the future is an important part of how we orient ourselves and what concrete things we do to prepare for the future. A mechanistic view argues that we can't intervene to change the future, that it must fundamentally resemble the past, and that if people just invest in things that promise to give them a good profit the future will be nice. Another view sees the future as being composed of choices which lead to new choices, with new possibilities emerging as choices are put into action


Generative Energy page 139

I think as we are starting to see as machines become available, Jobs that were previous held won't longer be there. I have talk to a number different employees from different fields, and they are starting to notice the rise of machines. I know Amazon was going use drones to delivery packages. I am assume once the technology becomes cheaper then they will use drones.

 

[jaguar43]

It wouldn't look like the capitalistic-toned videos posted in this thread.

High serotonin promotes reserved, helpless and submissive behaviour. The behaviour seen on wallstreet/capitalistic and similar environments is often the opposite i.e. can-do, achieving and proactive, hormonally it corresponds to high testosterone and low cortisol which can't be sustained by high serotonin or estrogen.

A high serotonin society would be very passive and reserved with a high intolerance to risk. Such a society wouldn't progress beyond industrialisation.

Obviously such a society doesn't exist because it only takes a few low serotonin/estrogen folks to push forward and pull up the rest of the high serotonin/estrogen folks with them.

I think that is really going to be the downfall of Ray Peat's ideas gaining any momentum in the U.S( or the westernized countries). Once people start reading his books especially Mind and tissue. They are probably going to lose it.

 

[Such_Saturation]

It wouldn't look like the capitalistic-toned videos posted in this thread.

High serotonin promotes reserved, helpless and submissive behaviour. The behaviour seen on wallstreet/capitalistic and similar environments is often the opposite i.e. can-do, achieving and proactive, hormonally it corresponds to high testosterone and low cortisol which can't be sustained by high serotonin or estrogen.

A high serotonin society would be very passive and reserved with a high intolerance to risk. Such a society wouldn't progress beyond industrialisation.

Obviously such a society doesn't exist because it only takes a few low serotonin/estrogen folks to push forward and pull up the rest of the high serotonin/estrogen folks with them.

But what do you think helps those people to work twelve hours a day just to climb the ladder? What makes them backstab their colleagues to gain that spot in the employer's heart? What gets the PhD student through the night? What makes a child eat a raw human heart without feeling a thing? I stacked the videos by social prestige... by power... and it's turtles all the way down. The guys in Liberia are still better off than the Kowloon Walled Citizens, because at least they still have the sun and the stars to look up to.

 

[cantstoppeating]

It wouldn't look like the capitalistic-toned videos posted in this thread.

High serotonin promotes reserved, helpless and submissive behaviour. The behaviour seen on wallstreet/capitalistic and similar environments is often the opposite i.e. can-do, achieving and proactive, hormonally it corresponds to high testosterone and low cortisol which can't be sustained by high serotonin or estrogen.

A high serotonin society would be very passive and reserved with a high intolerance to risk. Such a society wouldn't progress beyond industrialisation.

Obviously such a society doesn't exist because it only takes a few low serotonin/estrogen folks to push forward and pull up the rest of the high serotonin/estrogen folks with them.

But what do you think helps those people to work twelve hours a day just to climb the ladder? What makes them backstab their colleagues to gain that spot in the employer's heart? What gets the PhD student through the night? What makes a child eat a raw human heart without feeling a thing? I stacked the videos by social prestige... by power... and it's turtles all the way down. The guys in Liberia are still better off than the Kowloon Walled Citizens, because at least they still have the sun and the stars to look up to.

They don't see those things the same way as you do.

There's no 'ladder to climb' but a continous progression of achievement and growth. There's no 'backstabbing' but realising that the workplace is a competitive environment between colleagues -- the process of which pushes both sides to greater achievement. A child eats a raw human heart and a piece of kale just the same.

 

[Such_Saturation]

There's no 'ladder to climb' but a continous progression of achievement and growth. There's no 'backstabbing' but realising that the workplace is a competitive environment between colleagues -- the process of which pushes both sides to greater achievement.

Is that why people watch the show, then? There is a common ground achievable by all things, and all these things differ only in their connectedness, only in the position they are to walk that common ground. Serotonin simply happens to deal with that kind of business.

 

[pboy]

I think that kind of business is more estrogen, adrenaline, and NO than it is, cortisol also, than it is serotonin. Seretonin is more like...a give up vibe...a be numbed but not in pain, just no dope or drive...just a kind of float with the wind state. The kidn of thing that makes people do inhumane and harsh aggressive things is the more estrogen cortisol adrenaline side of things. Basically its a feel threatened vibe or most of the time, literally, well being is threatened..its just the kind of society that's been made, and any dietary thing that irritates intestines also promotes that part of the brain, even caffeine which is why...ultimately stimulants aren't ideal. They can be seemingly useful for survival and staying afloat in this society that's been made and collective conscious being carried by the people, but ultimately for human well being and potential we'd create something where adrenaline was never necessary. Dopamine has to do with action that has to do with fun, exploration, expansiveness, learning, curiosity, happiness, sharing, all together enjoyment and captivation...it happens only when there isn't threats, and dopamine is also responsible for imagination, creativity, meditation, and healing to a large extent. Theres a huge albeit difficult to notice for most, but really not, difference between dopamine and adrenaline...dopamine quickly degrades into adrenaline if the situation is not a self love, fun thing, and more of a battle thing...that's how life has been set up for us since school, parents, and into the work place and college. The part of brain that deals with love and creativity and insight, is basically all but shut off in such states...so its no wonder most people are dumb (not dumb..just major, major ignorant..and therefore destructive) and only living in concepts and no joy and little love, outside of thier close family and friends to a small extent, even there lotta drama. Seretonin actually protects from the cortisol adrenaline estrogen aspects to an extent, but it doesn't bring joy, energy, motivation, like dopamine does. It happens when you're in a situation of with which dopemine outlets are stunted, and adrenal outlets are futile...basically the days will go by, you can go through them simply and gracefully, but with a sad melancholic tone to it, not really grow, energy is a slight drain in feel, and not outgoing or uplifting. If serotonin state goes on too long you're heart and digestive function will weaken and desire to even be alive, but in short term its protective, rather than bang head against wall and get no where and hurt yourself or burn bridges

The problem in our society is by far adrenalin cortisol, and its all because dopamine inevitably degrades immediately for m ost people, soon after they wake up, based on the forecast of the day and how much time and space they have. Your body senses a threat to deal with before the happy fun insightful mind, loving, inspiration...think kids, excited ton of energy but not like in a battle, so for most dopamine degrades into adrenaline, you go meet the threat of the day...but unfortuneately, you get home at night, body knows whats gon happen tomorrow, and doesn't really let it down until sleep, then cycle repeats. Its the mind prison that's been referred to....this is why vacation or like...that's dopamine, when actually can live basically instead of fight...and if people around you are cool and/or you're more alone, it can greatly increase the chance of that

The sad thing is humans when in a dopamine free state, naturally harmonize, don't pollute, care more about others and theenvironment, its a loving vibe cause you're so happy you naturally want to stay that way and increase it, people are better at thier jobs, more creativity, more teamwork, amd everything that needs to be done in life can happen oyfully, in fact, also, more efficiently and effectively than it is now.

Some butt hurt people long ago got in power and forced their ***t onto the world, basically...lol

 

[Such_Saturation]

I think that kind of business is more estrogen, adrenaline, and NO than it is, cortisol also, than it is serotonin. Seretonin is more like...a give up vibe...a be numbed but not in pain, just no dope or drive...just a kind of float with the wind state.

Yes, this is exactly what people feel on "antidepressants" and it is exactly what benefits them. It allows them to cope. But all those substances imply one another in the end, that is when they turn from an instrument into the only reason to live, they become a curse. They are the soapy water that spills from the bucket when the ship is tipping over.

Some butt hurt people long ago got in power and forced their s*** onto the world, basically...lol

But that's not an explanation. What was going on inside them?

 

[pboy]

probably people living in cold harsh climates with nothing but food that irritated them and...by the time they're adults, their whole brain is wired in a certain way...because their whole life has been like a battle to an extent...they've sseen people suffer and stuff. All it takes in that situation is one person to do something like steal or backstab and theres an explosion of pent up anger. They proably don't have any sort of faith in life, because life isn't actually showing them much love...bad food, bad weather, no explanation, ect. So even if those people come into contact with a more harmonious loving society, some will likely be cool about it but many others after years of a harsh life and no food will try to steal and pillage and out of jealousy destroy it. The adrenalized mind is not receptive to love...like, even if the most perfect thing is right there in front of them, they cant feel it or see it at the time, literally perception is changed...by hormones and neuro states, its profound. So it all probably started from hungry cold humans that had been living in chronic elevated adrenaline and built a mind out of fighting and having no faith in life, then like...its been passed on and on, that's all I can think of...they then create power structures that are going with lifes a battle outlook, and after generations the once harmonious people are forced to play that game and start losing touch with what they had and know and stuff

and it mighve not been just a cold climate, that would make a lot of sense though...basically a deprived stressed place, however that occurs

im just educated guessing on that, but it doesn't really matter...I just know how the current human being works...and the situation at present

 

[Anonymous]

Would it be safe to say that higher serotonin levels are probably consistent with egoic thinking patterns? Not egoic in the way mainstream society typically defines it, but ego as used in spiritual circles. I read some Eckhart Tolle books recently and this topic reminded of his teachings.

 

[cantstoppeating]

There's no 'ladder to climb' but a continous progression of achievement and growth. There's no 'backstabbing' but realising that the workplace is a competitive environment between colleagues -- the process of which pushes both sides to greater achievement.

Is that why people watch the show, then? There is a common ground achievable by all things, and all these things differ only in their connectedness, only in the position they are to walk that common ground. Serotonin simply happens to deal with that kind of business.

What show?

The point you seem like you're trying to make is that a high serotonin/estrogen individuals lack 'connectedness' - right?

 

[Such_Saturation]

The point you seem like you're trying to make is that a high serotonin/estrogen individuals lack 'connectedness' - right?

Yes, much like the cancer cell that doesn't recognize the whole anymore because of how it has been treated by it or because it is the only option for survival. I think if it really were only the tv shows that introduced that kind of feelings, it would be suspicious at best that those work environments were chosen for dramatization in the first place. It is also suspicious that people watch them with such interest.