1. 5% Discount At HealthNatura.com!
    Click Here For More Information
    Dismiss Notice

Serotonin Dominance And How To Deal

Discussion in 'Health' started by natedawggh, Jun 12, 2015.

Tags:
  1. natedawggh

    natedawggh Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Messages:
    650
    Gender:
    Male
    I have had some success at manually lowering my serotonin dominance.

    First let me explain why I know I have serotonin dominance and maybe you can see if your symptoms are similar to mine: I have had severe depression and anxiety. I have quite a bit of grey hair for my age (34). This is a sign of serotonin dominance as a manifestation of improper tryptophan metabolism (as I understand it). I also have had severe sleep disturbances, easily gain weight (especially water retention). I also have had difficulties keeping my temperature elevated (lowering temperature is a direct function of serotonin). I also have had dull skin with increasing hair loss and eczema, etc. Serotonin seems to reduce blood supply to the skin. There are probably other symptoms I am not considering at the moment (like my varicocelle and some spider veins in my foot).

    Improvements seen: I immediately experienced an increase in mood and a complete elimination of my depression (before was constant and every day... now I only have a bad day maybe once every three weeks). My hair began growing back in right away too. My skin has improved and I've lost a little more weight, (though it doesn't seem to help with weight loss, it does seem to prevent weight gain, especially water retention and constipation). I also experienced an improvement in my libido (this being a consistent and sustained ability to be aroused, and not to become exhausted from sexual activity).

    LYSINE
    I started this protocol by taking lysine after reading this thread:
    viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6004&hilit=lysine

    FEVERFEW
    I took Feverfew a few years ago. At the time I hadn't noticed any effects, until I stopped taking it and developed a 24 hour, horrible migraine similar to a headache that occurs in caffeine withdrawal. I realized that feverfew is truly a potent serotonin lowering herb as it is said to do (it does this by keeping serotonin bound to platelets). And started using that as well.

    Those are the two main therapies. I take one Feverfew and one Lysine in the morning, noon, and night. Lysine seems to reduce serotonin for about 4-6 hours and depending on what you eat. Feverfew will last for about 8-12 hours, also depending on what you eat.

    HERE IS A WARNING: if you take these and then cease taking them abruptly, or eat sources of protein that are high in tryptophan without these supplements, you will experience a profound and painful migraine from the sudden increase in serotonin. This is VERY uncomfortable, so if you decide to take them be mindful you have an appropriate supply, time and resources to make sure you don't miss doses. My doses last for some time if I don't eat tryptophan. If I eat tryptophan, I must immediately also take the supplements to avoid the conversion to serotonin. If you need to stop taking them, reduce your dose and frequency over a few days and avoid major sources of tryptophan.

    Other unpleasant but beneficial side effects is a reduced stress response and bit of loopiness/balance problems. This is good for long term health, but in the first two weeks if I exerted myself I ran out of energy VERY quickly. Walking uphill, exercising, these were activities that quickly rendered me exhausted. After about two weeks as my metabolism has returned to normal this effect has diminished greatly. I also fell over once in a situation that should have been easy to keep my balance, and sometimes found myself very spacey and checked out, as if I had zoned out as a result of the reduced serotonin in the brain. If this happens to you I wouldn't be alarmed, because long term elevated serotonin in the brain will cause degenerative diseases, and I am happy to be loopy for a little bit to lower that. The elimination of my depression is the best result of this protocol, and I just can't tell you how happy I have been over the last month that I've been doing this (I will also again assert my insistence that alcohol be completely and utterly avoided, otherwise there really is no point in doing any of these as the effect of alcohol is much stronger than any of these supplements). This is also why it is important to support your primary metabolism if you use these, because having adequate carbs, protein, thyroid, etc. will prevent your body from NEEDING the stress response and help keep up your energy levels.

    I have noticed that these do not have a permanent effect. If I stop my body still converts tryptophan rapidly into serotonin, which would mean my metabolism is not fully restored at all. So this is merely a stop-gap measure to deal with the awful effects of serotonin dominance. A diet truly low in tryptophan is especially helpful, and I have found the use of casein as my main source of protein to be extremely helpful in getting that ratio while still maintaining a high intake of protein. Dr. Peat has also mentioned how adequate sodium also helps reduce serotonin, so enough sodium should be maintained in the diet.

    EDIT: Also, one thing that is pretty obvious for lowering serotonin is high dietary calcium. Not enough calcium raises Parathyroid hormone, which ALWAYS increases serotonin. So to stop that cascade one would need to have high dietary calcium, which I have found be extremely beneficial. This means shooting for 2000mg of calcium. Supplements aren't good, however, because ornate, lactate, and citrate all leach calcium from bones. Milk and Eggshell calcium are the best sources.
     
  2. narouz

    narouz Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2012
    Messages:
    4,431
    Very interesting Nate!
    I too have had good effects from lysine.
    How much do you take per day?
    And what about taurine--same question.

    Is feverfew essentially aspirin?
    It has salicylic acid?

    And on this casein powder...
    I've been resistant to powders.
    Peat doesn't seem to like them.
    But...there can be problems with other Peat-approved protein sources too.
    For instance, he talks about the sucky cultures replacing rennet in cheeses.
    So...I might give it a try.
    Which brand do you like?

    Oh. And on the "serotonin dominance"...
    Are you just assuming this is a problem for you,
    or have you measured it by labs?
    I don't have a resistance to believing it is a problem for you.
    Just wondering how you formed that idea...
     
  3. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Have you tried BCAA's?

    Also, just out of curiosity...how would you go about "repairing" any brain issues from the elevated serotonin after you have raised your temperature?
     
  4. natedawggh

    natedawggh Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Messages:
    650
    Gender:
    Male
    I guess I take 1500mg a day, across 3 doses. I've taken more but I really don't notice a difference in quantity. Consistency seems to be more useful. Taurine I take only 500 because more than that starts to make me smell sulfury.

    I doubt in this therapy that feverfew would be like aspirin, because every time I take feverfew, quitting produces a migraine (and I have never had nor do I get migraines otherwise). This doesn't happen with aspirin.

    I haven't specifically heard that Peat disliked ALL powders. I heard he dislikes whey, because of it's high tryptophan content. Casein is very low in tryptophan. If it came down to powder or low protein (as is my choice since I just cannot get enough protein in my diet otherwise), I'd think that the powder would be the better choice, and I definitely notice benefits from it already, especially in satiety, sleep, and immunological response.

    As for serotonin dominance... I haven't specifically had it measured, but there are just conditions of the human body that occur only in certain states of the endocrine system. Depression, for instance, does not occur with low serotonin because depression is a state of low vitality, not a lack of happiness. If serotonin is low then a person would either feel happy or in a continual state of excitement/high energy. Hair loss as well only occurs in conjunction of high serotonin because prolactin activates serotonin, so no person with hair loss has low serotonin, as I understand it.
     
  5. natedawggh

    natedawggh Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Messages:
    650
    Gender:
    Male
    I haven't specially used BCAA's, though casein powder naturally has high levels of them. So that could help although I've only started taking casein recently, and I was taking lysine and feverfew about two months before I started taking casein.

    I would assume that your body will natural repair itself, once the stress hormone is suppressed. It seems to be that way for me as I am more alert and energetic than before. I did also try taking uridine, which is touted to repair myelin sheaths... but in a state of health your body produces that anyway so it's probably not necessary.
     
  6. tara

    tara Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2014
    Messages:
    7,748
    Gender:
    Female
    Thanks for posting this nate.

    It seems that all the substances you mention have relatively short duration. I've figured that might be why coffee gets me - withdrawal during sleep can set of a migraine that's too far gone by the time I wake up to be able to interrupt it. Lately I've only been drinking small amounts of decaf, and only at supper.

    Are you aware of any substances that have longer effect? I guess reduced production of serotonin would be preferable to just reducing it's release from platelets, since if it's sitting there waiting to be released as soon as the brakes are eased off, that might give a quicker rebound?

    I think I will try to avoid eating meat when I feel I'm in the danger zone. It's hard to do though, since I'm having trouble with milk, too.
    Also looking for what to eat instead of chocolate when I get the munchies at work.
     
  7. BobbyDukes

    BobbyDukes Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2015
    Messages:
    345
    Hi Dawg.

    I can relate to a lot of things you speak of in this thread.

    Progress has been slow for me with my RP approach to eating/lifestyle.

    One thing that I am especially concerned with at the moment, like you, is the grey hair that I seem to be developing. I'm 33. Hardly any of my friends my age have grey hair. They aren't dying it (I'm talking about 8 of my male buddies).They aren't pounding protein, like I am. I'm getting about at least 100g of protein, each day. I've cut way down on meat, to the extent now where I hardly ever eat it. I do eat a small piece of liver each day (30g) for the copper content (so I get at least 3mg, per day). Most of my protein is from milk. I stopped eating cheese, because it causes bad constipation, for me. So my calcium/phos ratios are always good. Technically, I can't see how I can really do much more than what I am. The hair I have got is considerably thicker, I will admit that. Seems higher in quality. But the grey is a concern, and is starting to make me look old. Despite having wonderful skin and a lean, muscular physique (so, not all bad).

    I eat no starch, whatsoever. I take a small pinch of t3 three times, per day. Aspirin 75mg, three times per day. Estroban, three times per day. Energin once per day. My diet and supplemental approach is pretty clean.

    But anyway. The grey is accelerating at such a rate right now, I am tempted to get on a cyproheptadine/lissuride combination to destroy serotonin and perhaps stay on it for a considerable amount of time.

    Unless anyone thinks this is a terrible idea?
     
  8. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    1,100
    Gender:
    Male
    Strange... I started to develop lots of gray hair right AFTER I discontinued Prozac some years ago... Maybe gray hair is not about serotonin ?
     
  9. SQu

    SQu Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    1,054
    Thanks nate for posting. I'm very interested in this and share your symptoms other than the skin and vein related ones. I've found daily sunlight, intermittently but starting early, and then a burst around midday for the vitamin d, to be crucial to lowering symptoms. Red light also good but not as marked an effect for me. It's winter here now and sunny, and so long as I get some sun daily I manage fine. Just one cloudy day drags me down badly though.
    Cyproheptadine has been fantastic especially small bits during the day.
    I just realized I passed my anniversary for no migraine! Last one I recorded was 12 June last year! I too attributed it to serotonin lowering.
    I did try BCAAs and they did indeed help but the other measures were more powerful. Just the sun alone, for example. Also, when tracking during a low fat diet experiment on cronometer.com, I was struck by how many BCAAs I was getting in my daily diet which had a lot of fat free dairy. They were always the highest types of protein I got, not counting glycine which did not get measured by cronometer.
    Bobby re tryptophan lowering have you used gelatin?
    All these things have been very key for me and I am very interested to consider lysine and feverfew knowing what the others have done to improve my quality of life. Thanks again.
     
  10. tara

    tara Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2014
    Messages:
    7,748
    Gender:
    Female
    Congratulations!
     
  11. SQu

    SQu Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    1,054
    thanks! :disco
     
  12. BobbyDukes

    BobbyDukes Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2015
    Messages:
    345
    Your comment doesn't really make sense. Do you think that SSRIs work for depression by increasing serotonin? And I'm not talking about the acute phase, where they flood the synapses with serotonin. I'm talking about the efficacious effects that occur when the drug plateaus. Even Peat himself has said that they may actually work by lowering setotonin, not increasing it. Added to that, SSRIs are highly complex drugs, and there is a lot more going on than 'serotonin'. Sorry to hear about your experience, though. Seems there are a few of us about. Mine is probably part genetic.

    And you're probably right. It's not all going to be about serotonin. Let me know if you've got any other ideas.
     
  13. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    1,100
    Gender:
    Male
    Well, my comment makes sense because that's what happened. I don't know why SSRIs work. I don't think Peat knows either. Not at all. He doesn't provide much info for it. I don't have any other ideas, just wanted to share my experience to see if someone would have an hypothesis for it.

    One thing I'm wondering since starting to dig into RP's world is this : When he talks about serotonin being bad, where and when is that serotonin ? Blood, presynaptic vesicles, intersynaptical space, which part of the brain, at which time of the day, which organs, and so many other questions. "serotonin is bad". Well...
     
  14. HDD

    HDD Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Messages:
    1,673
    This thread has a study shedding light on the mechanism of Prozac and other ssri's:

    viewtopic.php?f=68&t=1964
     
  15. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2014
    Messages:
    1,100
    Gender:
    Male
    Thanks! Though I find the linked evidence to be clearly insufficient to explain the SSRI issue.
     
  16. Dean

    Dean Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2013
    Messages:
    529
    I've been just thinking about greyness as related to "peating." I've noticed, in short order, a major greying of my beard. I've had little batches of grey in there for quite a few years, but it seems all of a sudden that my beard has largely turned to grey--almost overnight.

    I still have a full head of hair, with very little grey in there though, for whatever reason.
     
  17. natedawggh

    natedawggh Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Messages:
    650
    Gender:
    Male
    Yeah you sound hot so shut up.
    Sorry, just kidding. Couldn't resist.
    I am not totally clear on the physiology of grey hair, but i think it is more related to tryptophan and not so much serotonin (serotonin and prolactin being involved in loss). Graying, as I understand it, is an interruption of copper by tryptophan but not necessarily a deficiency. Or something like that. Reducing serotonin will increase the amount of hair, but not the color. The high metabolic rate associated with healthy thyroid levels converts tryptophan into niacin, and in a depressed metabolism (localized, such as the hair follicle, which is a high energy demanding organ) this conversion doesn't happen. High fruit intake will provide good nutrient balance for hair as well as the necessary carb load.

    I have found a lot of benefit from getting closer to 200 g of protein. I use casein, which is what most cheese is made from, so it might also give you constipation...but if that is happening you might want to consider why, because that protein is better because it's lower in tryptophan. Maybe you don't have enough magnesium? I use magnesium chloride as a supplement. It's the best absorbed and retained (it's the type in seawater). It will also clear up any constipation REALLY quickly, because constipation is a swelling of the intestines and magnesium instantly reduces swelling. I'd try to fix that, because that it occurs at all could be a problem down the road.

    Do you know how much calcium you get per day? High dietary calcium improves the conversion of tryptophan to niacin, which in theory would help reduce or stop greying. I haven't been doing this long enough to confirm, but everyone should be getting at least 2000mg of calcium a day anyway, and this helps keep metabolism up and lowered stress hormones. Try that and see if it halts the greying. Also, milk is really high in tryptophan. i can't drink it or I get a migraine, so as I said before I use casein to get the bulk of my protein (about 160gs) and then fruit, potatoes, and shrimp).
     
  18. natedawggh

    natedawggh Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Messages:
    650
    Gender:
    Male
    If you want to know the answer to this question, just read his papers. They explain.
     
  19. BobbyDukes

    BobbyDukes Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2015
    Messages:
    345
    Double post
     
  20. BobbyDukes

    BobbyDukes Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2015
    Messages:
    345
    Haha, ok; thanks, Nate. I guess I was just mentioning my appearance to try and illustrate the strange contrast in things I am noticing.

    Very useful information and thank you for taking the time to answer. I think you are right about the calcium/copper/tryptophan thing.


    I guess I went to milk because of that 'cheese constipation' issue. I theorised that milk was closer to how Mother Nature intended, and was nutrionally superior to cheese (including it's magnesium content). But, saying that, perhaps milk might increase serotonin. Perhaps the high liquid content of my diet could be contributing to increased serotonin type symptons? I think I read somewhere that Peat mentioned that being a potential problem for hypo people, like me.

    Oh, to add further information to this discussion (with regards to grey hair), I messaged Danny Roddy as well. Just to see what he thought. He basically came back with some studies to support his viewpoint of (his words):

    ''Everything I've read points to thyroid as a regulator of pigment, and that copper deficiency (and iron overload), and an excess of cortisol and prolactin are factors in the development of grey hairs''.

    I can quote the studies he linked me, but I have no laptop at the moment, so I basically type everything by phone (which is a pain).
     
Loading...