Serotonin

[Kasper]

If serotonin is bad:
1. Why do selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors treat premature ejucalation effectively ? This is a very objective measurement. Is premature ejaculation a sign of good health then ?
2. And glucose is good. Why then does glucose water raise serotonin in rats:

3. [A major decrease in 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid was found in cortex and hippocampus in rats exposed to cadmium during lactation]http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0892036296002188 So maybe cadmium has positive effects ?
4. [Serotonin in mammals is made by two different tryptophan hydroxylases: TPH1 produces serotonin in the pineal gland and the enterochromaffin cells, while TPH2 produces it in the raphe nuclei and in the myenteric plexus. Genetically altered mice lacking TPH1 develop progressive loss of heart strength early on. They have pale skin and breathing difficulties, are easily tired, and eventually die of heart failure.][http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC263847/]

I actually wanted to make a whole list about topics like
cold exposure/omega-3/melatonin/cortisol/cooked protein/amphetamines/exercise/acidbase theory/sleep duration/gut flora/nuts etc. all things where I just have questions.

Studies that I read in the last 5 years, or experiences that I have, that just don't fit in the ray peat theory. But reading those studies again takes quite some time... Maybe another day.

 

[jyb]

Some of the SSRI have impotence as a risk. I'm not sure if that's a good solution to premature ejaculation.

 

[Blossom]

I personally think of serotonin as one of the problematic areas in our nature due to the tendency for its excess. I believe we live in an environment where it is easy to end up with too much serotonin to our detriment. Nothing is completely negative in all scenarios. Carbon monoxide can act as an antioxidant in very limited situations but this doesn't mean we need to actively seek out carbon monoxide. The troublesome issue is that our 'medical' culture and society in general has an infatuation with serotonin based on a flawed understanding of cellular physiology. I believe this partially is the direct result of greed on the pharmaceutical companies part and it has now become widely accepted as fact that serotonin is a great thing that everyone needs to be happy. Ray Peat is the only sane voice I've ever heard speak out on this topic. I can't explain that experiment at all and I believe the whole publication would need to be reviewed by an unbiased scientist for a clear interpretation to be made. As a person who has suffered tremendously from excess serotonin induced most definitely by the 'medical' profession I can tell you that serotonin was not positive in any way for me in elevated amounts. I just view it as something we have to contend with as part of being human but it is probably wise to provide the best environment for keeping serotonin in check.

 

[Suikerbuik]

You are seeing things way too narrow/simple Kasper. I don't have time to cover the whole topic. There are some links in Peat's work too, which should lead you to more specific studies. Ray is certainly onto something with serotonin, endotoxin, estrogen, and alot else he is saying!

Serotonin plays direct roles in intestinal inflammation, ATP depletion in the brain and thus has many more indirect effects (and most likely more direct effects). Endotoxin (and histamine and serotonin?) via serotonine receptors are activators of mast cells. Type of immune cells which also mediate between the nervous system and immune system an example. Mast cells are implicated in many diseases especially intestinal inflammation and permeability.

Endotoxin on itself also has many negative effects and especially with a compromised gut barrier. It will lead to endothelial cell disfunction and inflammation, activation of macrophages, stresses the liver, many negative effects on the metabolism.

So all these effect have many systemic affects with many more factors involved: interleukins, cortisol, insulin resistance, estrogen (dominance), mitochondrial disfuntion, translocation of bacteria, and so on and on.

To simplify it: STRESS STRESS AND STRESS, a long with PUFA certainly the cause of diseases.

And about the glucose. This is pure glucose with only water, no sodium, no other minerals, no protein, no fat... Only 1 factor like sodium could already give very different results.

But it's good to question things! Peat in my opinion could be a bit to simplistic about microflora, well most likely not Peat himself (I think Peat knows it, but due to the complexity and many uknown things he doesn't say much about it) anyway then the simplicity some people here speak about microflora. Bacteria like us, want to thrive and they are seemingly everywhere, IMO Peating won't solve the problem so easy when there's disbiosis.

 

[Kasper]

@Suikerbuik

I will certainly study this theory better some day, but anyway, if genetically altered mice lacking TPH1 develop progressive loss of heart strength early on, have pale skin and breathing difficulties, are easily tired, and eventually die of heart failure. Then I can only conclude, okay, so serotonin has also positieve effects in at least mice. If mice are unable to make serotonin in the pineal gland and the enterochromaffin cells, then they die... Isn't it that simple?

 

[Suikerbuik]

Sorry for the spelling errors that are around, but you should be able to understand what I mean.

It's all about context. Every single substance has beneficial effects when you look for them. It's just that things have to be seen in context..

Mice for example have a different genomic inflammatory responses than men. I count serotonin excess in as an inflammatory disease, since it's mostly produced in an iritated gut. See Blossom's on excess and concentration, no doubt we will suffer from too little serotonin.

 

[j.]

If mice are unable to make serotonin in the pineal gland and the enterochromaffin cells, then they die... Isn't it that simple?

It's also very simple to debunk that Peat advocates such low level of serotonin. If one does everything diet-wise to reduce serotonin, such as having a high calcium diet, one still would have a higher amount of serotonin than someone whose ability to make serotonin is damaged.

So you're arguing against a view that is not defended by Peat. Your target is the argument, which no one I know made, that serotonin should be as low as possible. But Peat's argument is that a person whose serotonin-making ability isn't damaged should reduce the factors in nutrition that increase serotonin. The two views -Peat's argument and your straw man- are very different.

 

[Kasper]

I readed that at Danny Roddy's blog. But I can't find it, maybe I remember wrongly, but it was something like that serotonin has no positive role anymore in humans anymore... it used to have a positive function million years ago... something like that. But what is Ray peat's opinion about too low serotonin levels ? If you have premature ejucalation ? I don't know.

 

[Blossom]

I'm going to read up on this topic more because I feel woefully inadequate in my ability to explain what I believe are Peat's views on this subject. I do think it is probably still something that is not necessarily negative in small amounts made by a healthy body. I believe the problem comes with horrible environmental conditions that cause us to produce an excess. If only for my own curiosity I would love to be able to explain why I feel this way in a more intelligent and straight forward manner. I will post what I find that might be of interest.

 

[Mittir]

I think you know answers to all the questions you are asking.
These questions been floating around in health blogs for a while.
If you know about these points you also know about their answers.
Whether you accept those answers is up to you.
If you are sincere about learning you can check old threads and RP articles.
If your plan is just to have fun throwing around studies,then have fun.

 

[j.]

I think you know answers to all the questions you are asking.
These questions been floating around in health blogs for a while.
If you know about these points you also know about their answers.
Whether you accept those answers is up to you.
If you are sincere about learning you can check old threads and RP articles.
If your plan is just to have fun throwing around studies,then have fun.

My guess is that this is the thread he made to make it seem like he is genuinely interested, so in the other thread he can do the job he is paid to do by the nuts association. It's just too obvious when he can't even decide what straw man he wants to use. So spreading propaganda, or as I said, just really stupid.

 

[Kasper]

@j, I'll ignore your troll like comments from now on if you don't mind.

@mittir
I don't have those question from blogs. This mice study is from Wikipedia. Cadmium and glucose study I've gotten from waiworld.

If you can point me to blogs where this is discussed, I would like to read it.

Btw, I'm doing a ray peat inspired diet, but that is just because from all things I tried, I feel best with a lot of milk and orange juice. Not because the theory makes so much sense to me.

I don't have the time to really study it, I'm studying mathematics for 50 hours a week. I just thought let's put some doubts I have together. I mean the wai diet says glucose is great because it raises serotonin. And vegetables are bad because they are high in cadmium and deplete serotonin.

 

[Mittir]

Btw, I'm doing a ray peat inspired diet, but that is just because from all things I tried, I feel best with a lot of milk and orange juice. Not because the theory makes so much sense to me.

If you are aware of RP theories then you must have known about
his website raypeat.com. There is a google search box and you can
plug in "serotonin", you will get RP's views on serotonin.
You can not critique someone without knowing what exactly they are saying.

 

[jyb]

And vegetables are bad because they are high in cadmium and deplete serotonin.

Vegetables have the fibre that can be fermented by bacteria, which produce toxins that irritate the gut which then raises serotonin. Most of the serotonin comes from the gut. Also, vegetables are lower in nutrients and higher in pesticides than animal product.

 

[Kasper]

Of course, I've read of all of that. But I didn't have studied all the studies he refers too. I didn't have tried to see how he comes to his conclusions from those articles. I just readed it. And I've readed other stuff, and I'm not able to answer my own questions, maybe someone else can. Could vegetables high in cadmium (maybe take the juice only) lower serotonin? How far can we go with lowering serotonin? Is premature education a sign that you go too far in lowering serotonin? Why does glucose raise serotonin in rats?

Those questions are not answered by ray peat, as far as I know, and I know too little too answer that myself. But where are those blogs that you talked about that answer them?

 

[Blossom]

Mittir is correct that Ray Peat's website does contain an abundance of information on serotonin. It would be counterproductive for me to copy and paste it all here when you can do a search from his site and have access to his numerous, brilliant and informative writings on the subject. I do not think specific questions are answered about ejaculation and so forth though. I suppose that would be up to each individual to determine for himself. I'm sure that since each person's serotonin level will vary as will their response to any serotonin lowering measures it becomes impossible to give a one size fits all recommendation. I'm confident that if I were a guy and noticed such an issue with ejaculation i might back off a bit on the serotonin lowering maneuvers. I doubt diet alone would produce such an extreme scenario. Maybe some guys will weigh in on this topic if they feel it is an issue or have experience in this area. Best of luck on your quest for understanding. We are all on that same journey and just at various points along the way.

 

[Suikerbuik]

Kasper if you read all the articles from Peat, then read the studies and posts I wrote yesterday. With some common sense you'd be able to make it I hope. Wouldn't worry about too little, and if that's the case go for a doctor..

 

[juanitacarlos]

Is premature education a sign that you go too far in lowering serotonin?

Sorry, but I had to point this out - Freudian slip perhaps?

I remember Peat in an interview being asked how SSRIs work - and from memory, I think he said that nobody knows how they work. And a quick Google search seems to confirm that.

So who knows? SSRIs could be lowering or raising serotonin in the system. Or could be doing something completely different that is unknown.

Common Prozac side effects may include:

drowsiness, yawning;
tremors, sweating, feeling anxious or nervous;
dry mouth, upset stomach, mild nausea;
sleep problems (insomnia), strange dreams;;
mild rash;
changes in weight or appetite;
decreased sex drive, impotence, or difficulty having an orgasm; or
cold symptoms such as stuffy nose, sinus pain, sore throat.

Have you taken SSRIs?

 

[Kasper]

I have never taken SSRIs, never been really depressed. Did I talk about SSRI's anywhere :P ?

Kasper if you read all the articles from Peat, then read the studies and posts I wrote yesterday. With some common sense you'd be able to make it I hope. Wouldn't worry about too little, and if that's the case go for a doctor..

Do you claim that I'll be able to answers those question, if I read all that:
"Could vegetables high in cadmium (maybe take the juice only) lower serotonin? How far can we go with lowering serotonin? Is premature education a sign that you go too far in lowering serotonin? Why does glucose raise serotonin in rats? "

Why don't you just answer them yourself, it are just 4 questions :P ?

 

[juanitacarlos]

I have never taken SSRIs, never been really depressed. Did I talk about SSRI's anywhere :P ?

If serotonin is bad:
1. Why do selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors treat premature ejucalation effectively ?