What Do You Guys Think Of Masturbating And Do You Do It

[Inaut]

Masturbating is a symptom of being unwell imo. Mentally/spiritually/emotionally/physically.

I haven’t done it in over a year and don’t think I ever will. I also don’t watch porn anymore. “Wasted energy”. Find love. It’s fsr more satisfying on all levels. Just sex is “cheap”. My experience from the past of course. My stamina also massively improved when I dropped the cheap tricks

 

[S-VV]

You get that naturally, or it's after peating, after taking hormones, or else?

Normally its about 1 per day. When taking AAS it jumps to two per day. AAS + D2 agonist 3 times. After suddenly stopping roids it goes away for 1-2 weeks while the HPG axis starts revving up.

Low dose amitriptyline helps by lowering it to 1 every three days, which is where I feel optimal.

 

[Libra guy]

Wow, congrats on 100+ days. I think masturbation is awful. I only ever feel an extreme need to do it when I’m stressed or depressed.

Yes and i was under alot of Stress

 

[Libra guy]

Normally its about 1 per day. When taking AAS it jumps to two per day. AAS + D2 agonist 3 times. After suddenly stopping roids it goes away for 1-2 weeks while the HPG axis starts revving up.

Low dose amitriptyline helps by lowering it to 1 every three days, which is where I feel optimal.

What d2 antagonist do you take and what is AAS

 

[S-VV]

What d2 antagonist do you take and what is AAS

D2 agonist: bromocriptine, cabergoline or lisuride
Aas: androgenic anabolic steroids

 

[Libra guy]

D2 agonist: bromocriptine, cabergoline or lisuride
Aas: androgenic anabolic steroids

I have some bromo in 2.5 mg pills how many mgs do you take

 

[gately]

I was thinking about this some more and I realized that when I start to masturbate out of compulsion rather than physiological need to release it's easy for me to stop once I notice that my body is contracting in unnatural, stressful ways (good sign of compulsive behavior conditioned by porn or addiction as opposed to natural behavior). for example I can masturbate completely relaxed and with a calm mind if i am just ending a nofap streak because I feel like it's time but if I am just doing it out of compulsion i can't do it without tensing my legs and especially my psoas muscles and a kind of frantic, unsatisfactory daydreaming or fantasizing

Habitual behavior in the absence of addiction is another thing that's under discussed. I've been gaming excessively since 6 and acquired a porn addiction at 9 or 10 so every now and then just out of habit I'll open a tab for porn or open a game, realize I dont actually even feel like engaging in this behavior on a compulsive level and close the tab. It's kind of a weird thing to experience

Fully agree. You could interchange addiction with habituation in my post and the meaning basically stays the same. The gist is the same. Whatever causes someone to over-masturbate / over-ejaculate is harmful.

And for posterity, I will mention again: repression is also not healthy. It is extremely dangerous, especially to the mind. You would be amazed at how many celibates lose their mind or start acting in extremely cruel ways. (Catholic Church, anyone?) If one naturally feels called to retain semen and it isn’t much of a struggle, than it’s fine. But if someone’s body is demanding release (within reason, while listening to the body’s signals and using intelligence and moderation) and they continue ignoring that demand, then they are walking a dangerous road. Masturbation, within the boundaries of all that I’ve already written, is the lesser of evils.

I’ll also say this: celibacy has no authentic place in the western world. Those catholic priests are a perfect example. Nobody trained them how to handle celibacy. For instance, they continued eating meat and drinking alcohol, things which in the East would have been absolutely forbidden or shunned for a celibate. And for good reason!

The eastern paths of renunciation are filled with rules for a reason. In the west we never explored any of them. We just made ***t up and hoped it would work out. We’re now starting to see the occasional fallout from nofap communities: we’re seeing people who forced themselves way past their body’s demands, and are now dealing with increasing derangement / mental illness. Not to mention mass levels of guilt and shame. (For the Christians reading this. Ask yourself why the devil is called the accuser in revelations.)

And in the east, they knew the whole point of celibacy was to sublimate that primal energy into something divine. And they knew it was the path for the few, not the many. And they knew the dangers of that energy. (Again, why there were rules.) In the west, people are like, “Kundalini yoga is sick. Can’t wait to experience it. I’m working on my chakras and doing pranayama to raise my vibration. My yoga teacher did a 6 months teacher-training in India so he definitely knows what this is all about.” Little do these people know the mind shattering ego death that awaits them if they were to actually succeed, as though Cthulhu sits and patiently watches them, just beyond the brink of their sanity.

 

[Ableton]

Fapping is bad when you are not genuinely horny but get horny through addiction like porn or through boredom.
I think this is also the case for sex btw.

after like 5-7 days i personally have trouble to think about anything other than sex, even in absence of porn/women. So I fap, and am trying not to do it multiple times. I also jelq my D a bit before so that the tissues don’t shrink and stuff.

basically you need to seperate addiction from your sex drive and then you are good to go. Depending on age And health you can even fap daily then

120 day streaks are bull****

 

[kyle]

@Jessie I think the observation of test peaking a week afterward and then declining doesnt say much from a health standpoint.

In any diagnostic sense those changes dont mean much. What other changes in the body are going on? And if T levels subside after 1 week, what of it? We know excess exogenous testosterone converts to estrogen.

Not saying this is a 1:1 example but in general it certainly suggests elevated test isnt always a good thing.

At any rate if someone wanted to build a case for it being healthy on a biological basis, a much broader panel of info is needed, even notwithstanding the theoretical objections of its broader ramifications in virtually every other facet of life.

My own understanding is it isnt healthy whatsoever and 95% of what names this a controversial claim is driven by people addicted to justifying their wanking habit but I digress.

@gately
It seems logical for a young man to struggle against his passions.

Without that urge to resist their passions, you cant expect become a "householder" let alone a monk...it seems completely absurd dichotomy that single men have a choice of jerking off or becoming a monk! That aside...

"Householder" sounds like a term lifted from a badly translated eastern spiritual tract...but are you even considering to take on that role of a having a wife/household requires a powerful level of willpower - something nobody has accused zoomers or millenials of having in great abundance.

But ok, if there are a lot of lonely young men the last thing they need to hear is to indulge in the very thing messing with their minds and preventing them from ya know, going out and falling in love.

The reason the "nofap" thing has risen to prominence is because this culture has destroyed all restraint and now young men feel enslaved to their addictions to pornography.

And if you use porn, use it judiciously and with respect.

...

The level of nofap insanity on this forum lately is ridiculous.

You fail to see how those are completely contradictory ideas. The "insanity" is precisely a cultural phenomena from the complete absence of restraint and indulgence taking place. It is like telling the junkie to just take small amount of drugs.

Or perhaps, more accurately, telling people with addictions that their wanting to attend AA meetings is "insanity."

Certainly the accounts Ive read on the forum, these people often have a completely compulsive pattern. Their brains are so trained that feeding into it will possibily spiral into self destruction.

But the real point I wanted to make was it still is completely arbitrary to say masturbation is governed by some kind of natural "yin/yang."

There is a multitude of reasons why it is arbitrary but the most glaringly obvious is porn is completely unnatural. So by your very own criteria of there being some kind of naturally existing mean to follow.

If your idea of "natural" requires endless foot notes and expositions to explain, natural ceases to holds much meaning.

 

[Summer]

Fully agree. You could interchange addiction with habituation in my post and the meaning basically stays the same. The gist is the same. Whatever causes someone to over-masturbate / over-ejaculate is harmful.

And for posterity, I will mention again: repression is also not healthy. It is extremely dangerous, especially to the mind. You would be amazed at how many celibates lose their mind or start acting in extremely cruel ways. (Catholic Church, anyone?) If one naturally feels called to retain semen and it isn’t much of a struggle, than it’s fine. But if someone’s body is demanding release (within reason, while listening to the body’s signals and using intelligence and moderation) and they continue ignoring that demand, then they are walking a dangerous road. Masturbation, within the boundaries of all that I’ve already written, is the lesser of evils.

I’ll also say this: celibacy has no authentic place in the western world. Those catholic priests are a perfect example. Nobody trained them how to handle celibacy. For instance, they continued eating meat and drinking alcohol, things which in the East would have been absolutely forbidden or shunned for a celibate. And for good reason!

The eastern paths of renunciation are filled with rules for a reason. In the west we never explored any of them. We just made ***t up and hoped it would work out. We’re now starting to see the occasional fallout from nofap communities: we’re seeing people who forced themselves way past their body’s demands, and are now dealing with increasing derangement / mental illness. Not to mention mass levels of guilt and shame. (For the Christians reading this. Ask yourself why the devil is called the accuser in revelations.)

And in the east, they knew the whole point of celibacy was to sublimate that primal energy into something divine. And they knew it was the path for the few, not the many. And they knew the dangers of that energy. (Again, why there were rules.) In the west, people are like, “Kundalini yoga is sick. Can’t wait to experience it. I’m working on my chakras and doing pranayama to raise my vibration. My yoga teacher did a 6 months teacher-training in India so he definitely knows what this is all about.” Little do these people know the mind shattering ego death that awaits them if they were to actually succeed, as though Cthulhu sits and patiently watches them, just beyond the brink of their sanity.

I would like to experience at least a brief instance of ego death. It’s like current events are shaped by TPTB to make one completely stressed out (though it’s likely been like this for centuries). I’ve heard that people who experience ego death see things in a different light. Some of them say they lose their fear of death. Although the people I talked to say they experienced it through drugs, I wouldn’t do those. Have you ever reached such a state?

 

[Jessie]

@kyle The evidence I've seen suggests the T levels peaked after a week, but didn't climb any higher. This is likely due to reproduction purposes. All this being independent of any sort of sexual "need" to ejaculate (which is typically driven by a endorphin addiction, not reproduction).

I don't really think masturbating is "healthy" under any context. Rather, prolonged sexual inactivity appears to be unhealthy for optimal androgen function. If you aren't sexually active, it probably wouldn't be harmful to masturbate once a week. That way prolactin stays low and your body can go through the processes to create new sperm (and under the context of good nutrition, also increase T).

It's just a convenient hack for sexually inactive men to keep androgen production solid.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I have said this multiple times and people can think what they want, I truly feel that my body knows the difference between me ejaculating from self stimulation versus sex or having a GF..... I avoid masturbation, I get strange inflammatory symptoms and spasms and brain fog from masturnation but I can ejacluate 15 times a week from sex and it’s no issue

It is completely different.

 

[kyle]

@Jessie It would also seem like anything else susceptible to rebound and downregulation affects over time. I think much more evidence would be needed to make that claim and rule out those possibilities.

 

[gately]

@Jessie I think the observation of test peaking a week afterward and then declining doesnt say much from a health standpoint.

In any diagnostic sense those changes dont mean much. What other changes in the body are going on? And if T levels subside after 1 week, what of it? We know excess exogenous testosterone converts to estrogen.

Not saying this is a 1:1 example but in general it certainly suggests elevated test isnt always a good thing.

At any rate if someone wanted to build a case for it being healthy on a biological basis, a much broader panel of info is needed, even notwithstanding the theoretical objections of its broader ramifications in virtually every other facet of life.

My own understanding is it isnt healthy whatsoever and 95% of what names this a controversial claim is driven by people addicted to justifying their wanking habit but I digress.

@gately
It seems logical for a young man to struggle against his passions.

Without that urge to resist their passions, you cant expect become a "householder" let alone a monk...it seems completely absurd dichotomy that single men have a choice of jerking off or becoming a monk! That aside...

"Householder" sounds like a term lifted from a badly translated eastern spiritual tract...but are you even considering to take on that role of a having a wife/household requires a powerful level of willpower - something nobody has accused zoomers or millenials of having in great abundance.

But ok, if there are a lot of lonely young men the last thing they need to hear is to indulge in the very thing messing with their minds and preventing them from ya know, going out and falling in love.

The reason the "nofap" thing has risen to prominence is because this culture has destroyed all restraint and now young men feel enslaved to their addictions to pornography.



You fail to see how those are completely contradictory ideas. The "insanity" is precisely a cultural phenomena from the complete absence of restraint and indulgence taking place. It is like telling the junkie to just take small amount of drugs.

Or perhaps, more accurately, telling people with addictions that their wanting to attend AA meetings is "insanity."

Certainly the accounts Ive read on the forum, these people often have a completely compulsive pattern. Their brains are so trained that feeding into it will possibily spiral into self destruction.

But the real point I wanted to make was it still is completely arbitrary to say masturbation is governed by some kind of natural "yin/yang."

There is a multitude of reasons why it is arbitrary but the most glaringly obvious is porn is completely unnatural. So by your very own criteria of there being some kind of naturally existing mean to follow.

If your idea of "natural" requires endless foot notes and expositions to explain, natural ceases to holds much meaning.

I once spent three long months deep in the desert, completely celibate in a pseudo-religious program for young men. I was 15 years olds. There were no women allowed where I was, and when one finally did come to visit us for a night around the campfire, nearly every young man, to my knowledge, went out into the dunes and masturbated to the thought of her. She wasn't even particularly beautiful, and there certainly wasn't anything pornographic about her being there. But the urge for sexual release was over-whelming for the young men, including myself. This was a completely natural expression of our sexual frustration, considering we couldn't have sex with her. I'm starting with this story to explain that masturbation, and sexual expression in general, is completely natural, even far removed from the temptations of a degenerate society.

There's so much to refute in what you've written and I find this kind of thing exhausting, but I'll do my best, compadre.

1 - In Buddhism a 'householder' simply means any layperson, i.e. - not a monk. There is no "poor lifting" of eastern texts happening here, but instead a poor understanding, on your part, of the definition of a word.

2 - You repeatedly mention some kind of notion that you believe young men must struggle against their passions to achieve anything worthwhile in life. My entire point was extreme measures get extreme results, for better or worse. I warned, primarily, against taking extremes, in either direction...especially without guidance. You on the other hand, seem to be advocating extremes. Let's break down what just happened: we have an OP, presumably pretty young, who went 100 days without orgasm, and then masturbated four times in a row and felt like garbage, because he had depleted himself. My advice to him was essentially: stop working with extremes, find a middle path, because these extreme forms of repression and expression bring...again... extreme results. Seems pretty sensible, right? But no, Big Boi Kyle comes in on the scene, got his testicles on ice and wants to tell everyone and OP that I'm wrong: that extremes are needed in this world today. Oh what a demented, degenerate, and fallen Kali Yuga world we live in, right, Kyle? But let me ask you something: how do these extremes seem to be working out for OP, Kyle? How do you think your advice is going to benefit him?

3 - Yes, I'm well aware of the reasons nofap started.

4 - Footnotes on the naturalness of being? Are you for real, homie? Even animals in the wild will masturbate. There is nothing unnatural about masturbation. Is there something unnatural about pornography? Maybe. But Venus of Willendorf would like a word with you.

5 - Comparing natural sexual urges to alcoholism is so ridiculous I don't even know where to begin with you on that one. (And as a recovered teenage crack addict, who spent 4 years sober in AA, I can resolutely tell you that AA is a band-aid that works about 5% of the time. But this is a whole other debate.)

6 - You seem to think I'm advocating 'free love' or something, or that I don't understand the throws of sexual addiction that young men are enmeshed in these days. I am fully aware. But YOU don't seem to be aware the dangers of extreme repression, which is odd, considering it's what you advocate. It's like you only see one side of the coin, perhaps because you have never spent a lot of time in sexually repressive communities, so you haven't seen the potential damage firsthand?

I'm advocating sensible use of the body's primordial energy, all with moderation and wisdom, and also coming from a health perspective from years of study of Chinese Medicine and Ayurveda. If you can't understand that any form of prolonged repression not only damages the mind, but also the body's energy system, then I honestly don't know what to say to you. You're just simply wrong and haven't thought it through, because it should be pretty self-evident. For example, repression builds heat in the body, leading to stress and thus inflammation. It quite literally destroys the mind and body. I don't know how I can be more clear, but perhaps these examples will help:

- Do we not all know what unrequited love does to us?
- Do we not know what holding in years of anger leads to?
- Do we not all know what unrepentant shame and guilt leads to?
- Do we really not know the end result of extreme sexual frustration and repression in a man?

Maybe James Joyce can help you: "Gazing up into the darkness I saw myself as a creature driven and derided by vanity; and my eyes burned with anguish and anger."

This is common sense stuff, homie. You shouldn't need Joyce to help you along.

Besides institutional repression without wisdom, such as the Catholic Church example I gave earlier, have you not yet noticed what extreme sexual repression does to entire cultures around the world? I would urge you to read Wilhelm Reich, but I'm certain you'd outright dismiss him. (Feeling a little fascist today, are we, Kyle?)

In this thread, I've advocated moderation of sexual release, and naturalness of being. I advocated listening to the body, with wisdom and discipline. I advocated finding a partner, and barring that, I've said that porn can be utilized...but only judiciously and with respect, AND YOU come at me for convincing young men to "indulge in the very thing messing with their minds?" Shame on you, for you are emblematic of the ones who have been messing with young men's minds for centuries, you puritan.

 

[gately]

I would like to experience at least a brief instance of ego death. It’s like current events are shaped by TPTB to make one completely stressed out (though it’s likely been like this for centuries). I’ve heard that people who experience ego death see things in a different light. Some of them say they lose their fear of death. Although the people I talked to say they experienced it through drugs, I wouldn’t do those. Have you ever reached such a state?

Yes, I have. And I don't think it should ever be sought. Just walk the path of virtue, friend. That way when you experience the fireworks of heightened spiritual states, you will have done it in an organic and natural way, and you will have the merit to see yourself through the scary times.

 

[lvysaur]

when I start to masturbate out of compulsion I notice that my body is contracting in unnatural, stressful ways. for example I can masturbate completely relaxed and with a calm mind if i am just ending a nofap streak but if I am just doing it out of compulsion i can't do it without tensing my legs and especially my psoas muscles and a kind of frantic, unsatisfactory

I've noticed similar. The biggest thing for me is the flexing of the PC muscle (pubococcygeal).

Good orgasms/sex = the PC muscle is relaxed until the instant of ejaculation.
Frantic orgasms/poor sex = the PC muscle is clenched before ejaculation, often even at the start of sex.

Also during relaxed orgasm, my penis is very hard and lasts longer in that state. During a frantic orgasm, my penis is soft, even though it's the same size, and the erection can be lost easily.

A good erection is both slow to come, slow to fade. Coincidentally, this is exactly in tune with women (most healthy women complain about lack of foreplay, and men being rushed)

This is also why men complain of a difference between normal sex and masturbation. Men only even have actual sex when in the healthy state to begin with. In the frantic state, the girl doesn't get stimulation, so the sex doesn't happen or gets called off. Obviously actual sex still has other things going on, but I think this filter is one of the main differences.

This is also true even outside of masturbation. When I'm in poor health, I'll notice my PC muscle clenching even during normal activities.

 

[S-VV]

@gately truly refreshing perspective

 

[Quelsatron]

being in decent health, masturbation was perfectly fine, I didn't suffer any acute ill effects from it, but now in poor health masturbation is incredibly draining, I feel like going to bed right after for hours. There's also a distinct difference in the orgasm, and I can tell because oysters are incredible for my libido and I can yo-yo across the border that nominally separates good health from bad health in days or weeks with them. The unhealthy orgasm is very strong and pleasurable, while the healthy orgasm is brief and light. I don't know which is supposed to be healthy, but the light orgasms are what I had throughout all my life until recently so I'm betting it's that one.

it's probably another case where a healthy metabolism can return to the equilibrium quickly

 

[Jib]

Fully agree. You could interchange addiction with habituation in my post and the meaning basically stays the same. The gist is the same. Whatever causes someone to over-masturbate / over-ejaculate is harmful.

And for posterity, I will mention again: repression is also not healthy. It is extremely dangerous, especially to the mind. You would be amazed at how many celibates lose their mind or start acting in extremely cruel ways. (Catholic Church, anyone?) If one naturally feels called to retain semen and it isn’t much of a struggle, than it’s fine. But if someone’s body is demanding release (within reason, while listening to the body’s signals and using intelligence and moderation) and they continue ignoring that demand, then they are walking a dangerous road. Masturbation, within the boundaries of all that I’ve already written, is the lesser of evils.

I’ll also say this: celibacy has no authentic place in the western world. Those catholic priests are a perfect example. Nobody trained them how to handle celibacy. For instance, they continued eating meat and drinking alcohol, things which in the East would have been absolutely forbidden or shunned for a celibate. And for good reason!

The eastern paths of renunciation are filled with rules for a reason. In the west we never explored any of them. We just made ***t up and hoped it would work out. We’re now starting to see the occasional fallout from nofap communities: we’re seeing people who forced themselves way past their body’s demands, and are now dealing with increasing derangement / mental illness. Not to mention mass levels of guilt and shame. (For the Christians reading this. Ask yourself why the devil is called the accuser in revelations.)

And in the east, they knew the whole point of celibacy was to sublimate that primal energy into something divine. And they knew it was the path for the few, not the many. And they knew the dangers of that energy. (Again, why there were rules.) In the west, people are like, “Kundalini yoga is sick. Can’t wait to experience it. I’m working on my chakras and doing pranayama to raise my vibration. My yoga teacher did a 6 months teacher-training in India so he definitely knows what this is all about.” Little do these people know the mind shattering ego death that awaits them if they were to actually succeed, as though Cthulhu sits and patiently watches them, just beyond the brink of their sanity.

Excellent post. Thanks for that.

Very true. People treat celibacy like a fad diet, when in reality its true purpose is deeply spiritual. Actually deeply spiritual practices are antithetical to fads. Chaos ensues when things like NoFap become popular without understanding its roots. More guilt, more shame, more sense of failure, when most of these men were already starting out with an above average burden of all of these.

Partnered sex is obviously ideal. But it is not an option for all of us. I choose to masturbate occasionally as it tends to quell the demons of isolation/loneliness. I get extremely sexually frustrated and when I stop masturbating completely, it ends up piling up into some kind of borderline psychosis. Masturbation may be "numbing" to an extent, but couple with imagination, it also keeps my brain connected somewhat healthily to sexuality.

I have no issues with porn. Or I try not to anymore. I have a long history of issues with it, far more than I can explain here. But what's funny lately is I find myself preferring fantasy about 50% of the time when I use porn. I'll simply forget I was even looking at porn and get caught up in a fantasy I'm having.

For just about everyone, either celibacy or partnered sex is the ideal. Masturbation is a poor substitute for the real thing, but for a vast majority of people, it's the only option they have most of the time for any kind of sexual release.

It's one thing to abstain from masturbation if actual sex is an option. But if sex is not an option for someone, completely shutting off their sexuality seems pretty toxic to me. I feel a sense of relief from masturbation that's probably something like 10% of the relief I'd get from actually having sex. But it's better than nothing. When I've gone long periods without masturbation my thoughts start getting out of control and my mood tends to get pretty unstable, and I get pretty detached from reality. Just my personal experience.

Again though, great post. I understand the basic concepts of transmuting sexual energy and it is definitely not for everyone. It's a deeply personal practice and the only people actually doing it for real are the ones who don't talk about it.

 

[Jib]