What did Ray Peat meant about the horrible enzymes in cheese

BaconBits

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I dont quite understand.

What do we have to look for. I dont really understand how cheese is made. I now it is made traditionally with "rennet", stuff from one of the cow stomachs.

Now they make GMO rennet like stuff from fungi or bacteria, is that what he meant. Or are fungi and bacteria like conventional and used instead of rennet. Is rennet safe?

So what now, is organic cheese OK? What do you have to look on a label? Are there any safer cheese, like to say Gouda or is there no rule. Does heating over the 60°c (or 100°C) destroy the bacteria and enzymes and make it safe, like in pizza?
 

kiran

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Re: What did Ray Peat meant about the horrible enzymes in ch

It means that non-rennet (including vegetarian,usually bacterial, rennet) cheeses can irritate your gut. So traditional rennet cheese is ideal. I think you can eat whatever you can tolerate ...
 

Ingenol

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Re: What did Ray Peat meant about the horrible enzymes in ch

It should say "animal rennet." At least here in the US just "rennet" can mean vegetarian. Parmesano reggiano and other imported hard cheeses are the most likely to still be made with animal rennet.
 

BaconBits

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Re: What did Ray Peat meant about the horrible enzymes in ch

This is what wikipedia says:

"Rennet is a mixture of enzymes used to coagulate cheese. Originally it was available only from the fourth stomach of calves, and was scarce and expensive, or was available from microbial sources, which often suffered from bad tastes. With the development of genetic engineering, it became possible to extract rennet-producing genes from animal stomach and insert them into certain bacteria, fungi or yeasts to make them produce chymosin, the key enzyme in rennet.[52][53] The genetically modified microorganism is killed after fermentation and chymosin isolated from the fermentation broth, so that the Fermentation-Produced Chymosin (FPC) used by cheese producers is identical in amino acid sequence to the animal source.[54] The majority of the applied chymosin is retained in the whey and some may remain in cheese in trace quantities.[34] In ripe cheese, the type and provenance of chymosin used in production cannot be determined.[54]
FPC was the first artificially produced enzyme to be registered and allowed by the US Food and Drug Administration. FPC products have been on the market since 1990 and have been considered in the last 20 years the ideal milk-clotting enzyme.[55] In 1999, about 60% of US hard cheese was made with FPC[56] and it has up to 80% of the global market share for rennet.[57] By 2008, approximately 80% to 90% of commercially made cheeses in the US and Britain were made using FPC.[54] Today, the most widely used Fermentation-Produced Chymosin (FPC) is produced either by the fungus Aspergillus niger and commercialized under the trademark CHY-MAX®[58] by the Danish company Chr. Hansen, or produced by Kluyveromyces lactis and commercialized under the trademark MAXIREN®[59] by the Dutch company DSM."

Doesnt the heat destroy the enzymes or is it a allergenic protein not affected by heat?
 

BaconBits

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Re: What did Ray Peat meant about the horrible enzymes in ch

I did a little research and I can say this are weird times we live in. Almost all cheese producers want to be vegetarian friendly, isnt that nice. They are proud to say they dont use animal rennet. So instead of animal rennet you get toxic GMO bacteria or fungi made enzymes, but hey, its vegetarian.


But too bad Ray Peat didnt elaborate on this subject more. I mean you have to use bacteria, rennet only curdles the milk, if no bacteria is used all the cheese would taste and smell the same. You cant just use rennet and no bacteria. Then there would be no Swiss cheese or Edam, it would just be one cheese.
 

4peatssake

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Re: What did Ray Peat meant about the horrible enzymes in ch

BaconBits said:
I did a little research and I can say this are weird times we live in. Almost all cheese producers want to be vegetarian friendly, isnt that nice. They are proud to say they dont use animal rennet. So instead of animal rennet you get toxic GMO bacteria or fungi made enzymes, but hey, its vegetarian.


But too bad Ray Peat didnt elaborate on this subject more. I mean you have to use bacteria, rennet only curdles the milk, if no bacteria is used all the cheese would taste and smell the same. You cant just use rennet and no bacteria. Then there would be no Swiss cheese or Edam, it would just be one cheese.
I'm pretty much convinced the only way to be safe is making our own - at least for those of us in North America. I've read that most European cheese is still made with animal rennet, but that may not be accurate.

For the adventurous, this could be fun.

New England Cheesemaking Supply Company
 

BaconBits

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Re: What did Ray Peat meant about the horrible enzymes in ch

So,thing is a little bit more complicated, there are 4 types of rennet like a found out

1.traditonal rennet from 4 stomach of a veal(calf)
2.microbial rennet from (non GMO) molds-it makes the cheese taste slightly bitter" BEING PHASED OUT"
3.GMO rennet,also called FPC rennet- bovine genes were inserted into GMO mold
4.Vegetable rennet- made from vegetables

So the odds rennet number 2 is found is very low, number 3 is bad, what about number 4? Most companies in Europe use number 4, France and Austria (maybe even Denmark ) do not allow number 3.
 

Jake sullivan

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Does anybody fully understand why microbial enzymes are harmful? Ray mentioned that its seriously toxic but i dont remember him elaborating on why and how, and its frustrating because you cant find almost anything in the internet that explains why?

My guess is microbial enzymes maybe contain mycotoxins or aflatoxins/endotoxin or even live fungi that can infect the gut, if anybody knows more about this please share, i seem to notice i get horrible reactions from almost all cheeses,

And if you search cheese and mycotoxins or aflatoxins you can find quite a few sources that claim those toxic components can be found in cheese in large amounts, but they dont directly say its because of microbial enzymes so if anyone knows anything we dont know about microbial enzymes please share, i want to know what exactly makes its toxic, my guess is that it contains form(s) of endotoxin
 

gaze

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Does anybody fully understand why microbial enzymes are harmful? Ray mentioned that its seriously toxic but i dont remember him elaborating on why and how, and its frustrating because you cant find almost anything in the internet that explains why?

My guess is microbial enzymes maybe contain mycotoxins or aflatoxins/endotoxin or even live fungi that can infect the gut, if anybody knows more about this please share, i seem to notice i get horrible reactions from almost all cheeses,

And if you search cheese and mycotoxins or aflatoxins you can find quite a few sources that claim those toxic components can be found in cheese in large amounts, but they dont directly say its because of microbial enzymes so if anyone knows anything we dont know about microbial enzymes please share, i want to know what exactly makes its toxic, my guess is that it contains form(s) of endotoxin
it's main problem is that it's an allergen. causes reactions in some people. digestive upset or stuffy nose/mucus. if you can eat it and feel good with no ill effects, it's not the worst thing in the world
 

Jake sullivan

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it's main problem is that it's an allergen. causes reactions in some people. digestive upset or stuffy nose/mucus. if you can eat it and feel good with no ill effects, it's not the worst thing in the world
I agree, the only thing i dont understand is what about them makes them allergenic? I think peat mentioned one time they can contain fungal antigens or toxins but i wish i knew more
 
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I have bad reactions to enzymes which I shared with Dr. peat who helped me identify the culprit. I only buy cheese made with traditional rennet.

so called vegetarian rennet or enzymes or microbial rennet is made by fermentation from fungus and contains toxins. Bad stuff.
 

AlexR

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A goat cheese I bought at Whole Foods had vegetarian enzymes in the ingredients and eating that cheese gave me a terrible reaction where my neck became extremely stiff and I felt very strange overall. I tried eating it again a few months later and had the same reaction. I have no problem with other goat cheeses that don't have the vegetarian enzymes listed on the ingredients. Off-topic, but I'm very disappointed with the poor quality and amount of random franken-ingredients that Whole Foods shoves into their foods while marketing themselves as a company that only uses the best and healthiest ingredients.
 

cdg

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A goat cheese I bought at Whole Foods had vegetarian enzymes in the ingredients and eating that cheese gave me a terrible reaction where my neck became extremely stiff and I felt very strange overall. I tried eating it again a few months later and had the same reaction. I have no problem with other goat cheeses that don't have the vegetarian enzymes listed on the ingredients. Off-topic, but I'm very disappointed with the poor quality and amount of random franken-ingredients that Whole Foods shoves into their foods while marketing themselves as a company that only uses the best and healthiest ingredients.
Many cheeses especially from UK use vegetarian rennet but state rennet on the label. Fortunately some say suitable for vegetarians so you need to check that as well to make sure.
 
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