Stuck in vicious sibo or helico cycle

[LJS]

My health collapsed 14 years ago after a course of amoxil for a skin infection. I’d been doing Atkins and probably have been hypothyroid all my life. Severe anxiety, major food intolerance, weakness, fatigue, constipation, eczema

Currently 35 female. Infertility is an issue

Underweight prior to peat but cypro has improved that

Had been low carb almost carnivore as I was reacting to everything new I tried.

I believe I have helicobactor (still) and sibo from previous tests.

I often feel so sick very soon after eating and dizziness. I do feel least bad just eating meat.

Reading Ray Peats articles finally explained what was going on but I’m struggling to implement all he suggests.

I get reflux from Orange juice
Dairy causes constipation
Raw carrot salad gives me severe anxiety (figure fibre)
Even today watermelon juiced cause horrible nausea 10 minutes after consumption (thanks bugs)
Gastritis is on and off an issue (aspirin makes it worse)

So fibre free and starch free is what I am trying. Potato protein helps but I am struggling to get enough calories in to heal. I desperately want to handle even lactose free milk to get myself out of this situation.

On top of this the cortisol and anxiety reactions I get from most supplements or die off (probably from a lack of calories) complicates things.

Recently I took clarithromycin (60mg, 60mg, 120mg days 1-3) and the histamine response was so bad I had to stop. I think I made my whole situation worse.

The only thing I really don’t react to is thyroid hormone (armour and cytomel).

I have famotidine I’m currently trying and small amounts of erythromycin I think I’m okay with (it does stop the horrible nausea if I’m experiencing it)

If anyone has any ideas of how to get out of a really sensitive reactive situation pleas let me know

 

[Jonk]

Have you had your vitamin D checked? Also trial and error is key. I feel like having the approach of finding a causative factor is very important and until you do keep experimenting with what works specifically for you. B-vitamins can be helpful but need good nutrition/calories and for me personally a lot of magnesium. But sometimes you just need more calories which kind of kickstarts the digestive system, but a more restricted diet might be appropriate for some until inflammation goes down. I don't do well on carrots either but do fine on wheat bran, bamboo shoots and mushrooms. Higher intake of liquids require a lot more salt. For most supplements I feel like I need to take it with magnesium + enough food to not get a stress reaction. I think B1 is good for increased stomach acid, B2 general antimicrobial, B3 increasing NAD+ and improving leaky gut, B5 feels like it speeds up bile flow. Do your own research though as I only have very surface level knowledge. When I didn't eat starch I did a lot better on whole fruits and smoothies than juices.

 

[LJS]

@Jonk
Thanks for the reply. Yes I figure I need to just keep reading and trialing what other people have done here.

My vitamin D is good. 120nmol but Danny Roddy said to get it up to 140 so I am taking some pf the premier research brand.

B's always seem to speed me up but I do think I go to hard to fast for my system and don't eat enough to use them. B2 I had a die off reaction from. B1 I think made me feel razzy but I can try it again. B3 I had a small mouth this morning and was my normal shaky chattering teeth self so I don't think it made me worse.

The constant chattering teeth and shakiness I figure is endotoxin and If I could get rid of those 2 symptoms that would make my day to day life easier

I have Haiduts Energin (I have a lot of his topical sups) and I think I'm okay with it

I do think I am scared of foods as my worst reaction is terrible inner anxiety and agitation but Ill try bamboo shoots (mushrooms im iffy as to whether I'm okay or not)

 

[GTW]

1ml castor oil three times a day helps my post antibiotic bloating etc.
I read a study showing that dose was effective antiinflammatory for knee osteoarthritis without adverse effects vs pharma drug. I figured that was a starting dose for good GI effects, not laxative.

Comparative clinical trial of castor oil and diclofenac sodium in patients with osteoarthritis - PubMed

A randomized, double-blind, comparative clinical study was conducted to compare the safety and efficacy of castor oil with diclofenac sodium in patients with knee osteoarthritis. Subjects with symptoms of knee osteoarthritis were given a castor oil capsule 0.9 mL (n = 50) thrice daily for 4...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Jonk]

@Jonk
Thanks for the reply. Yes I figure I need to just keep reading and trialing what other people have done here.

My vitamin D is good. 120nmol but Danny Roddy said to get it up to 140 so I am taking some pf the premier research brand.

B's always seem to speed me up but I do think I go to hard to fast for my system and don't eat enough to use them. B2 I had a die off reaction from. B1 I think made me feel razzy but I can try it again. B3 I had a small mouth this morning and was my normal shaky chattering teeth self so I don't think it made me worse.

The constant chattering teeth and shakiness I figure is endotoxin and If I could get rid of those 2 symptoms that would make my day to day life easier

I have Haiduts Energin (I have a lot of his topical sups) and I think I'm okay with it

I do think I am scared of foods as my worst reaction is terrible inner anxiety and agitation but Ill try bamboo shoots (mushrooms im iffy as to whether I'm okay or not)

Do you know approx. how many calories you are eating/day?

 

[Jonk]

I also really like this thread. I don't endorse anything in particular but I find it helpful getting different perspectives on gut health. "When A Turk's Bowels Move Less Than Three Times A Day, He Consults A Physician."

 

[mostlylurking]

My health collapsed 14 years ago after a course of amoxil for a skin infection. I’d been doing Atkins and probably have been hypothyroid all my life. Severe anxiety, major food intolerance, weakness, fatigue, constipation, eczema

Currently 35 female. Infertility is an issue

Underweight prior to peat but cypro has improved that

Had been low carb almost carnivore as I was reacting to everything new I tried.

I believe I have helicobactor (still) and sibo from previous tests.

I often feel so sick very soon after eating and dizziness. I do feel least bad just eating meat.

Reading Ray Peats articles finally explained what was going on but I’m struggling to implement all he suggests.

I get reflux from Orange juice
Dairy causes constipation
Raw carrot salad gives me severe anxiety (figure fibre)
Even today watermelon juiced cause horrible nausea 10 minutes after consumption (thanks bugs)
Gastritis is on and off an issue (aspirin makes it worse)

So fibre free and starch free is what I am trying. Potato protein helps but I am struggling to get enough calories in to heal. I desperately want to handle even lactose free milk to get myself out of this situation.

On top of this the cortisol and anxiety reactions I get from most supplements or die off (probably from a lack of calories) complicates things.

Recently I took clarithromycin (60mg, 60mg, 120mg days 1-3) and the histamine response was so bad I had to stop. I think I made my whole situation worse.

The only thing I really don’t react to is thyroid hormone (armour and cytomel).

I have famotidine I’m currently trying and small amounts of erythromycin I think I’m okay with (it does stop the horrible nausea if I’m experiencing it)

If anyone has any ideas of how to get out of a really sensitive reactive situation pleas let me know

I've been very sick in the past with SIBO, low stomach acid, leaky gut, almost universally reactive to all foods and chemicals for over 20 years. I'm not that way anymore. I've done multiple things that I believe helped me:
1. I'm hypothyroid. I found a good endocrinologist who optimized my prescription desiccated thyroid med, NP Thyroid by Acella.
2. I was estrogen dominant due to a tubal ligation at age 28. I take progesterone daily; I also take pregnenolone daily.
3. I cleaned up my diet and banned all PUFA, including olive oil. I get half or more of my protein from dairy and gelatin.
4. I discovered I was thiamine deficient. I believe this was originally caused by mercury poisoning from childhood mercury amalgams. Mercury is attracted to the sulfur in thiamine and also to selenium. I high dose thiamine hcl and I take 200mcg selenium daily. The high dose thiamine has normalized my digestive tract.
I suspect that the thiamine deficiency has been the primary underlying issue all of my adult life. I wish I had learned about it in my teens rather than in my 70's. Thiamine deficiency/functional blockage causes many issues, including poor thyroid function, poor liver function, poor pancreas function, poor digestive tract function. It causes low stomach acid which creates a vulnerability to ingested bacteria etc. that high stomach acid is supposed to destroy.

suggested reading:

SIBO, IBS, and Constipation: Unrecognized Thiamine Deficiency? - Hormones Matter

Is it possible that small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO) is simply a symptom of an underlying vitamin B1 or thiamine deficiency?

www.hormonesmatter.com

Gastrointestinal Disease and Thiamine - Hormones Matter

Modern research has revealed that the GI tract has a very complex relationship with the rest of the body, especially the brain.

www.hormonesmatter.com

Allergies, Autonomic Response, and Thiamine - Hormones Matter

Allergies, hypersensitivity reactions or intolerances represent a set of undesirable effects produced by a normal immune system.

www.hormonesmatter.com

Please note that a lot of pharmaceutical drugs block thiamine function, especially antibiotics. Bactrim is the one that nearly killed me but it isn't the only one that causes problems with thiamine function.

Bactrim: An Anti-Folate, Anti-Thiamine, Potassium Altering Drug - Hormones Matter

Bactrim is one of those antibiotics, that because it has been around for so long, is considered safe and benign.

www.hormonesmatter.com

 

[mostlylurking]

@LJS
I want to add that I found magnesium very beneficial. I use magnesium glycinate. Taking high dose thiamine hcl has massively improved my tolerance for magnesium.

Magnesium Status and Stress: The Vicious Circle Concept Revisited

Magnesium deficiency and stress are both common conditions among the general population, which, over time, can increase the risk of health consequences. Numerous studies, both in pre-clinical and clinical settings, have investigated the interaction of ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBxWivhBdpA


also you might find this one helpful:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi0O_fzczYA

 

[Nfinkelstein]

I have famotidine I’m currently trying and small amounts of erythromycin I think I’m okay with (it does stop the horrible nausea if I’m experiencing it)

If anyone has any ideas of how to get out of a really sensitive reactive situation pleas let me know

You didn't mention why you are taking the famotidine --- are you taking it to reduce stomach acid, or rather are you using it for an off label purpose? You probably already know that famotidine is anti-serotonin and may (if your serotonin is high) help reduce symptoms relating to elevated cortisol.

 

[LJS]

@Nfinkelstein
A big issue is excess histamine (and estrogen and serotonin I figure). After I get sick (recently with the flu) the mental anxiety and gastritis goes on for ages.

I recently read about someone on this forum who sounded similar to me using famotidine so I’ve started to see if it helps me be less histamine reactive to foods and help the post illness mental stuff. Hoping it might help with the bad muscle fatigue I get when my histamine is worse than normal.

@Jonk it wouldn’t be above 1500 and worse when my gastritis is bad. Trying to find a juice I tolerate. Trialling pear juice currently

Just today whislt having a big shaky adrenaline histamine reaction (post exertion) I had some lactose free pasteurised milk with sugar and I can notice a definite calming response. So I know I need it. I just need to find a way for my motility to work. (Cascara doesn’t make me feel that good mentally and it all seems upper GI slow motility)

@mostlylurking does it have to be thiamine hcl? Would allithiamine potentially help or thiamax. I have a supplement graveyard and pretty sure thiamine hcl made me feel crappy previously

 

[LJS]

@mostlylurking sorry I just finished the articles and can see they mention allithiamine. I breathe garlic/Sulfur all day after I take 50mg but I can handle that. In my current state I could not do the megadoses they mention

 

[mostlylurking]

@mostlylurking sorry I just finished the articles and can see they mention allithiamine. I breathe garlic/Sulfur all day after I take 50mg but I can handle that. In my current state I could not do the megadoses they mention

Another option that you may find of benefit is to use the sublingual thiamine mononitrate. Because it goes straight into the system via absorption under the tongue, you get the full 100mg quickly. The reason why thiamine hcl requires such high doses is because it doesn't get through the intestinal wall very effeciently. I could definitely feel a cerebral response on the first dose of the sublingual thiamine. People are using it successfully for Parkinson's Disease.

Consistency is really important because your body needs to get used to having the thiamine available in order to undo workarounds that it has developed.

links:
what it is: How to take sublingual B1: As many of you... - Cure Parkinson's
where to get it: NO SHOT B-1 100 mg
how to take it: Advantages of Compounding Sublingual Medications
Book about it: The Book

One thing to consider is that many people who get Parkinson's Disease started off with digestive tract problems first. It's a pattern to consider. Thiamine deficiency is implicated in both issues.

 

[LJS]

Okay so thiamine is making me feel weird. It seems when my gut moves I get anxiety? Fruit gets it moving too and helps constipation but my anxiety is way worse.
Not sure if I just keep pushing through it.

My estrogen is high on my recent blood tests and I have a feeling estrogen in my gut is causing a lot of the issues...even the slow motility perhaps

 

[GreekDemiGod]

A warning: high dose B1 taken for a long period will only cause bigger issues.

 

[LJS]

A warning: high dose B1 taken for a long period will only cause bigger issues.

Im super sensitive and doubt I’d ever get to a high dose

 

[mostlylurking]

A warning: high dose B1 taken for a long period will only cause bigger issues.

Well, yeah.

Thiamine is required for oxidative metabolism to happen. If you facilitate oxidative metabolism, whether by taking thiamine or by taking thyroid hormone, more vitamins and minerals (and nutritious food) are required to avoid other deficiencies. Supplementing the needed additional nutrients is a really good idea.

 

[mostlylurking]

Okay so thiamine is making me feel weird. It seems when my gut moves I get anxiety? Fruit gets it moving too and helps constipation but my anxiety is way worse.
Not sure if I just keep pushing through it.

My estrogen is high on my recent blood tests and I have a feeling estrogen in my gut is causing a lot of the issues...even the slow motility perhaps

Serotonin is released when your gut moves, is stretched, or expanded. Drinking a big glass of water can trigger serotonin release because it will stretch the intestine. Serotonin causes anxiety.

Serotonin: Effects in disease, aging and inflammation

In the early 1950s, several people recognized that the symptoms produced by administering an excess of serotonin were similar to those experienced by people with intestinal tumors called argentaffinomas or carcinoid tumors, which are usually in the small intestine or appendix.

raypeat.com

Serotonin, depression, and aggression - The problem of brain energy.

Serotonin research is relatively new, but it rivals estrogen research for the level of incompetence and apparent fraudulent intent that can be found in professional publications. This is partly because of the involvement of the drug industry, but the U.S. government also played a role in setting...

raypeat.com

The liver is the organ that detoxes estrogen, it exits via the intestine. If you are constipated, the estrogen gets reabsorbed.

Ray Peat, PhD on the Benefits of the Raw Carrot – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

The autonomic nervous system needs thiamine to function. The autonomic nervous system controls the digestive tract. Getting the digestive tract working is really important especially if you are high estrogen because you cannot detox estrogen if you are constipated.

SIBO, IBS, and Constipation: Unrecognized Thiamine Deficiency? - Hormones Matter

Is it possible that small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO) is simply a symptom of an underlying vitamin B1 or thiamine deficiency?

www.hormonesmatter.com

If you are deficient in magnesium, thiamine supplementation will make the deficiency worse because magnesium gets used up faster.

info on magnesium:

Magnesium Status and Stress: The Vicious Circle Concept Revisited

Magnesium deficiency and stress are both common conditions among the general population, which, over time, can increase the risk of health consequences. Numerous studies, both in pre-clinical and clinical settings, have investigated the interaction of ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Supplementing other b vitamins (like niacinamide, riboflavin, b6) would be helpful too.

 

[Peatful]

My health collapsed 14 years ago after a course of amoxil for a skin infection. I’d been doing Atkins and probably have been hypothyroid all my life. Severe anxiety, major food intolerance, weakness, fatigue, constipation, eczema

Currently 35 female. Infertility is an issue

Underweight prior to peat but cypro has improved that

Had been low carb almost carnivore as I was reacting to everything new I tried.

I believe I have helicobactor (still) and sibo from previous tests.

I often feel so sick very soon after eating and dizziness. I do feel least bad just eating meat.

Reading Ray Peats articles finally explained what was going on but I’m struggling to implement all he suggests.

I get reflux from Orange juice
Dairy causes constipation
Raw carrot salad gives me severe anxiety (figure fibre)
Even today watermelon juiced cause horrible nausea 10 minutes after consumption (thanks bugs)
Gastritis is on and off an issue (aspirin makes it worse)

So fibre free and starch free is what I am trying. Potato protein helps but I am struggling to get enough calories in to heal. I desperately want to handle even lactose free milk to get myself out of this situation.

On top of this the cortisol and anxiety reactions I get from most supplements or die off (probably from a lack of calories) complicates things.

Recently I took clarithromycin (60mg, 60mg, 120mg days 1-3) and the histamine response was so bad I had to stop. I think I made my whole situation worse.

The only thing I really don’t react to is thyroid hormone (armour and cytomel).

I have famotidine I’m currently trying and small amounts of erythromycin I think I’m okay with (it does stop the horrible nausea if I’m experiencing it)

If anyone has any ideas of how to get out of a really sensitive reactive situation pleas let me know

14 years?

And you think it was the abx?

Gut cells turn over in 90 days or as quickly as 5




Your eating- how / what
Or lack thereof has made you sick

Ive been there
I understand completely

If you have distorted eating or distorted body image
That needs to be addressed of course

How I healed?
I got off of all supplements and I ate

I couldn’t eat most things

So I ate what i could digest

Most are stunned by what that looked like




Being restrictive
Carnivore
Keto
Clean
“Peaty”
Atkins
And all the trials of medications or supplements
Has kept u stuck in ill health

My opinion
My experience

 

[Jonk]

@Jonk it wouldn’t be above 1500 and worse when my gastritis is bad. Trying to find a juice I tolerate. Trialling pear juice currently

Just today whislt having a big shaky adrenaline histamine reaction (post exertion) I had some lactose free pasteurised milk with sugar and I can notice a definite calming response. So I know I need it. I just need to find a way for my motility to work. (Cascara doesn’t make me feel that good mentally and it all seems upper GI slow motility)

Okay. I find it tricky myself getting enough calories sometimes, and I don't think it's good forcing down food if you're not hungry, but I think being a little more on the side of overeating than undereating is probably better. I didn't do well on lots of liquids and am practically unable to get enough fresh fruits to sustain me, so for now I'm eating starches. Not saying you should or should not eat starches, but it can be worth keeping in mind. I tried eating super restrictive for a few days only drinking freshly squeezed orange juice, which I tolerate fine in and of itself, but without any other foods I had the worst bloating ever. So be vigilant how your body reacts and don't take for granted that certain foods are only "good" or "bad". If your body craves salted potatoes lets say, try eating them. Or anything else for that matter, and then evaluate. It's easy getting bogged down by seemingly paradoxical statements about what's healthy and not that we sometimes forget to listen to bodily signals.

 

[LJS]

@Peatful
A few months prior to the abx I had to have a hep b booster for university degree.
Definitely have distorted body image and being underweight at age 21 and doing Atkins (eating Atkins bars full of pufa) + hep b + abx + stressful toxic uni degree we’re all likely contributes.

Yeh I do think supps are making me worse and I need to eat. Issue is I barely know what I can digest. Meat yes. (Well without reacting).

What did you handle first post carnivore?