• Due to excessive bot signups along with nefarious actors we are limiting forum registration. Keep checking back for the register link to appear. Please do not send emails or have someone post to the forum asking for a signup link. Until the current climate changes we do not see a change of this policy. To join the forum you must have a compelling reason. Letting us know what skills/knowledge you will bring to the community along with the intent of your stay here will help in getting you approved.

Some Pretty Damning Views Of Starch In Peat Interview

narouz

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
4,429
An attached, but rather stray point of discussion, later in the interview,
was a discussion of omega-3 vs omega-6 oils:
whether one was better than the other.

Go to about the 52:00 mark for that.

I mention this because
I remember long ago we had a thread that got very deeply involved
in trying to figure out if Peat thought just one of those oils was bad,
or both,
or if one was better than the other,
etc.

Here, he does seem to say that the Omega-3's, while bad,
are perhaps somewhat less destructive than the Omega-6's.
 

dietf***ed

Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
31
He had written quite favorably about potatoes but now he does seem to be very anti-starch. In a recent interview, when asked about the feeling of 'warmth' after eating starches/grains versus OJ, he mentioned that this happened due to cortisol rising.

I am not sure if there are studies tying starch to stress hormones. The problem is every diet whether its pro-starch (mcdougall, phd etc) or anti-starch has a set of medical studies that they can wave around to prove their case. And of course, each party is always willing to 'debunk' the studies used by the other party as being inferior in some way. sigh :?
 

Jenn

Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2013
Messages
1,035
A potato is not the same thing as grains, beans and other starches. First it is NOT all starch, depending on storage temperature, it can be more than half sugar. Proper preparation of the potato will also further convert the starches. It is also one of the BEST sources of potassium, all other starches are low/very low in potassium.

Body warmth from a properly prepared potato is not cortisol.
 

narouz

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
4,429
Just from listening to this interview
he makes several charges against starches.
But with regard to body temperature increase after eating starch,
he discusses one of the first lab experiments he did
where they fed mice a blob of corn starch,
then dissected them minutes later and looked--I presume in the intestines--
for starch.
None could be found.
The takeaway was that the starchy carbs,
touted by many as superior because "complex carbs"
and thus supposedly better on the glycemic index and more slowly absorbed...
the takeaway was that that is a mistaken idea:
the starchy carbs (glucose) get absorbed almost instantaneously.
Whereas the sucrose from, say, oranges is more slowly absorbed.

That would seem to me to explain what many find in personal experience:
that starchy carbs like potatoes really warm them up.
And following the general Peatian view--to eat foods so as to increase the metabolism--
this would seem to be a good thing.

But, if I'm interpreting Peat correctly, he would seem to be saying that would also be somewhat wrongheaded.
Because that instantaneous absorption--notwithstanding the temperature increase--
is problematic for several reasons.
He mentions insulin spiking as a result.
And he mentions the liver not being able to deal with all that glucose so quickly,
thus the body converts it and stores it as fat (so, depending on the person, could pose a weight-gain problem).

I'm not sure he mentioned the cortisol rising as a result in this interview,
but that would be another negative.

With potatoes, at least, there is such a gray area
because it is not clear to what extent the techniques of
long-cooking and consuming with saturated fats
ameliorate those negative results.
 

narouz

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
4,429
Jenn said:
First it is NOT all starch, depending on storage temperature, it can be more than half sugar.

Yeah...I'd like to understand this better.
Peat refers, in the instance of the blob-of-cornstarch-experiment,
to that starch as "pure glucose."
So...yes, I'd think you're right about the high sugar level.

And as you say, someone posted a while back some interesting facts about potato storage temperature
and the effects on its chemistry.
The potatoes stored in a refrigerator converted a significant amount of their starch back to sugar.

Here is where my knowledge of chemistry fails me:
If Peat refers to starch as pure glucose,
in what sense would starch be converted back to sugar?
Maybe Peat was speaking losely there--oversimplifying.
How is starch different from sugar?
I guess starch is very close to sugar and just needs some minor changes to become glucose....

On the point of potatoes not being all starch:
I'd also think there is a lot of fiber in there.
When I've juiced potatoes--peeled potatoes--
there sure seems to be a lot of what would seem to be fiber in there.
And that can be problematic from a Peat viewpoint.

Jenn said:
Proper preparation of the potato will also further convert the starches.

Here too...an area of mystery for me.
You say the cooking (I guess) would "convert" the starches.
Peat seems to think it makes them less potentially harmful,
but I don't know why, exactly, he thinks that.
I don't know what they are converted to.

Jenn said:
It is also one of the BEST sources of potassium, all other starches are low/very low in potassium.

Good point.

Jenn said:
Body warmth from a properly prepared potato is not cortisol.

I'd not heard that either, but "dietf**ked" said he heard Peat say this in a "recent interview."
I guess if something causes insulin to spike, that might trigger cortisol release. Don't know.
 

dietf***ed

Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
31
Thanks Narouz & Jenn. Hmm, true, perhaps the humble potato is exempted from the bad starch list. Instead of using fat, could you eat potatoes with fruit to slow down absorption? Peat mentioned fructose (and I think Potassium) tempering the release of insulin.

Narouz, the recent show I was referring to was this one (user question on 1h 36m):
viewtopic.php?t=1222&p=12976
http://www.radio4all.net/files/Politics ... -02-20.mp3
He does say insulin -> cortisol -> can increase body temp. But this is not ideal way to increase temp. as it causes long range issues.

Of course, the idea that increased insulin release after a high glycemic meal leading to stress/fat gain may itself be debatable as this of course has been the primary way to gain muscle after a workout used by most bodybuilders. So it has to be seen in context.

Hope I did not misinterpret his message. Lot of good stuff in there.
 

charlie

The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
12,293
Location
USA
I believe it was Cliff that said he always makes sure to eat fruit with potatoes to balance the sugar issue.
 

jyb

Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
2,780
Location
UK
It's not just about sugar issue, its starch particles crossing the intestinal barrier - RP or Andrew Kim has it in one of his articles.
 
T

tobieagle

Guest
A different question on the same subject:

Is there any method which one can do at home and can reveal wether a certain food/drink contains hfcs, hfcs-sugar-mixture or pure sugar?

And by sugar i mean sucrose.
 

charlie

The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
12,293
Location
USA
Yes jyb. Ray Peat says the particles cross over into the blood and causes damage.
 

Jenn

Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2013
Messages
1,035
Starch is the storage form of glucose for a plant. Starches do not contain any fructose. We can assimilate glucose and fructose, but not starch. If starch is not converted into an assimilate able form before it reaches the intestines....it goes through whole and too big and wreaks havoc, eventually. Glucose requires potassium for assimilation, insulin is supposed to be a back up system. Fructose suppresses insulin. Cane sugar is sucrose and is a balance of equal parts fructose and glucose. Orange juice is balanced with potassium too.

The saliva glands are supposed to convert starch into glucose BEFORE it reaches the blood stream. These enzymes are activated by CHEWING. Sufficient chewing should cause the food to become sweeter in the mouth during the conversion process. (I don't know anyone who chews that long...except maybe my aunt. She was taught to chew each small bite at least 20 times. She called it "Fletcherizing".<L>)

Most starches do not contain enough potassium to handle the glucose, so cause an insulin response even with sufficient chewing involved.
 
T

tobieagle

Guest
Jenn said:
Starch is the storage form of glucose for a plant. Starches do not contain any fructose. We can assimilate glucose and fructose, but not starch. If starch is not converted into an assimilate able form before it reaches the intestines....it goes through whole and too big and wreaks havoc, eventually. Glucose requires potassium for assimilation, insulin is supposed to be a back up system. Fructose suppresses insulin. Cane sugar is sucrose and is a balance of equal parts fructose and glucose. Orange juice is balanced with potassium too.

The saliva glands are supposed to convert starch into glucose BEFORE it reaches the blood stream. These enzymes are activated by CHEWING. Sufficient chewing should cause the food to become sweeter in the mouth during the conversion process. (I don't know anyone who chews that long...except maybe my aunt. She was taught to chew each small bite at least 20 times. She called it "Fletcherizing".<L>)

well explained :)
 

narouz

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
4,429
jyb said:
It's not just about sugar issue, its starch particles crossing the intestinal barrier - RP or Andrew Kim has it in one of his articles.

Yes, very true.
I was just commenting on the starch & body heat aspect
because dietf**ked was discussing that.

So, the potentials for mischief with starches are several:
1. insulin spike and cortisol release
2. fat storage
3. getting out of intestine into bloodstream
4. appetite increase
 

narouz

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
4,429
Mittir said:
Another point is that most starchy foods ( mostly grains and potato) have high phosphorus and low calcium.

Here is link from last year on drawbacks of starch

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=44

Thanks for linking to that interview, Mittir.
I'll have to give it a listen.

On the calcium:phosphorus ratio,
here's a chart I found:

Table 2: CALCIUM - PHOSPHORUS RATIO OF FOODS
Ca/P ratio mg/100 g Ca/P ratio mg/100 g
Bone 36,700/16,400 Dried apricots 67/108
Kelp, dry 1200/300 Raisins 62/101
Molasses 684/84 Sweet potatoes 31/52
Sesame seeds 1160/616 Filberts 209/337
Carob flour 352/81 Cottage cheese 90/165
Turnip greens 246/58 Salmon 188/328
Kale 249/93 Beetroot 16/33
Parsley 203/63 Cauliflower 25/56
Mustard greens 183/50 Almonds 234/504
Dandelion greens 187/66 Soy beans, dry 226/554
Endive 181/54 Pumpkin 21/44
Watercress 151/54 Capsicum 12/28
Beet greens 119/40 Spirulina 396/1023
Leaf lettuce 68/25 Buckwheat 114/282
Green Barley powder 1100/590 Bananas 8/26
Grass juice 150/75 Beans, dry 135/460
Spinach 93/51 Jerusalem artichokes 14/78
Broccoli 103/78 Potatoes 8/53
Cheese 750/480 Herring 66/254
Goats' milk 129/106 Eggs, whole 54/205
Cow's milk 118/93 Egg yolk 141/569
Cabbage 67/54 Lentils, cooked 25/119
Celery 39/28 Pecans 73/289
Pineapple, raw 17/8 Walnuts 99/380
Turnips 39/30 Coconut, dried 26/187
Grapes 16/12 Peas, dried cooked 11/89
Butter 20/16 Peanuts 69/401
Carrots 37/36 Brazil nuts 186/693
Tofu 128/126 Barley 16/189
Grapefruit, whole 16/16 Mushrooms 6/116
Cucumber 25/27 Sweet corn 3/111
Dates 59/63 Corn, dried 22/268
Lemon juice, apples 7/10 Rice, brown 37/292
Watermelon 7/10 Cashew nuts 38/373
Pears 8/11 Millet 20/311
Apricots, fresh 17/23 Sunflower seed 120/837
Plums 12/18 Rye, wheat 37/380
Orange juice 11/17 Oats 53/405
Onions 27/36 Torula yeast 424/1713
Peaches 9/19 Brewers' yeast 210/1753
Sardines 430/575 Bran, rice/wheat 100/1300
Eggplant 11/21 Wheat germ 72/1118
Peas, fresh 62/90 Pumpkin seeds 51/1144
Parsnip 50/77 Meat average 10/200
Tomatoes 13/27 Liver average 15/540

[Sorry, can't get the formatting to come out right.]


http://www.health-science-spirit.com/calcium.html

Yeah, potatoes don't look so good from that perspective.
Is phosphorus, if effect, the same as "phosphate" for our purposes here?
I think when I've heard Peat talk about that ratio
he says calcium : phosphate...doesn't he?

Other Peat foods don't do so well from this angle, you'll notice.
I guess we would need to balance this kind of assessment with other positive attributes.
Notice liver, for example: very high phosphorus compared against calcium.
But then...most don't eat it in high volume--and the nutrient content outweighs the phospate, I'd say.

But it could be a factor with something like potato,
since a lot of Peatians like to think of it as a staple,
and because Peat does praise it in some ways.
 

Attachments

  • Calcium to Phosphorus Chart.doc
    72 KB · Views: 72

Mittir

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
2,034
He uses phosphorus and phosphate in the same sense. He suggested a ratio of 2 Phosphorus to 1 calcium , preferably 1 to 1. P:C ratio are extremely imbalanced in meat, rice and wheat. Liver is not a daily food, its once every week.
 

Jenn

Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2013
Messages
1,035
Those numbers don't make sense...how can you have cheese as a roughly 2:1 ratio and cottage cheese as a 1:2 ratio?

You do know that the nutrient numbers in any given food are totally variable on the soil they are grown in, right?

My opinion, eat cheese with your potato and call it good. ;)
 

narouz

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
4,429
Jenn said:
Those numbers don't make sense...how can you have cheese as a roughly 2:1 ratio and cottage cheese as a 1:2 ratio?

You do know that the nutrient numbers in any given food are totally variable on the soil they are grown in, right?

My opinion, eat cheese with your potato and call it good. ;)

Yeah, they are kinda strange, aren't they.
Especially on milk, cottage cheese, cheese.

Too tell the truth, I haven't thought a lot about Calcium : Phosphate ratio.
I've known Peat's general take on it,
and I've known that muscle meats have a high phosphate content.
But I'd never really looked at a chart.

With the potato, it doesn't have much of either,
while cheese is great, with voluminous calcium compared to phosphate.
So your rough take makes sense.
 

Similar threads

Top