Hypothyroid Recovery Primer

[Luann]

Bookmark !

 

[lvysaur]

Prolonged taurine consumption in high doses may deplete beta alanine, but this shouldn't be a problem in doses of 1-5 grams/day. There are numerous benefits to taurine; haidut frequently references it as a powerful substance.

I think coconut oil is protective in all situations, and I think Ray would agree. You should gradually introduce it, a teaspoon at a time.

I think the carrot salad is important.

I've seen benefits from raw carrot, but I also consume it intermittently.

Peatarian Reviews: The daily raw carrot is not antiseptic, it increases bacterial growth in the gut

Bukowski posted this, and it shows that regular consumption of 200g raw carrot a day increases bacterial fermentation after a period of 10 days.

In my opinion, this is just microevolution of the gut biome. Short of actual antibiotics (and even then antibiotic resistant bacteria exist), nothing can infinitely sustain gut sterility for an extended amount of time without cycling.

Hence, I think the carrot works as a general and weak antibiotic, and like any other antibiotic, may promote the evolution of bacteria resistant to it. I myself have not ever tried eating raw carrot regularly for more than a week, so I cannot comment. I have seen dramatic improvements in mood and cognition from eating 2 or so raw carrots once or twice a week.

 

[FD8]

Excellent thread !
Small high sugar and frequent meals (6 times a day) literally saved me.
I think "taking it easy", i.e not exercising and having naps whenever you're feeling tired helps tremendously in the first weeks of recovery.
Overall I think OJ makes a huge difference

 

[FD8]

Also, I think it is essential to find what is causing your hypothyroidism. For me it was anemia/iron defiency ( 2 years vegan..). Once you know what the trigger was, you can work on it along with thyroid supp

 

[lindsay]

Also, I think it is essential to find what is causing your hypothyroidism. For me it was anemia/iron defiency ( 2 years vegan..). Once you know what the trigger was, you can work on it along with thyroid supp

How did you deal with your anemia/iron deficiency? I've been feeling lately like I need to eat more beef. I was vegetarian for about 8 years and always borderline anemic. When I discovered RP, I stayed away from beef due to high iron content and also because it upset my digestion. But now I feel like I need to make it work to get all the lovely vitamins in beef. Did you get B-shots at all?

 

[FD8]

How did you deal with your anemia/iron deficiency? I've been feeling lately like I need to eat more beef. I was vegetarian for about 8 years and always borderline anemic. When I discovered RP, I stayed away from beef due to high iron content and also because it upset my digestion. But now I feel like I need to make it work to get all the lovely vitamins in beef. Did you get B-shots at all?

Yes muscle meats are harder to digest, being vegetarian for a long time can make things worse I believe (lack of enzymes and digestive juices). My iron was very low so I introduced more beef and liver. I know Ray Peat doesn't like iron but anemia is a serious issue so you really need to up your iron. It took me about 4 months but I didnt get any B-shots.

 

[FD8]

How did you deal with your anemia/iron deficiency? I've been feeling lately like I need to eat more beef. I was vegetarian for about 8 years and always borderline anemic. When I discovered RP, I stayed away from beef due to high iron content and also because it upset my digestion. But now I feel like I need to make it work to get all the lovely vitamins in beef. Did you get B-shots at all?

If you don't tolerate meat you can get lots of iron from white rice, 50% of RDA iron in 2.5 cups of rice/ day. Grape juice is a good source too

 

[Owen B]

I've been having some conversations with Diokine, who's been a huge help to me, and he made this layout, which I think can benefit some people who are trapped in a cycle of hypothyroidism, high cortisol, adrenaline, serotonin, histamine, and estrogen.

"The effects of unmitigated stress in the body are devastating. A lot of things play into it, but when you start getting into a situation where the body is not able accurately reflect it's current energy stores, or it's not able to manipulate the cellular environment through different nervous tones, big problems become apparent. The shift from an environment characterized by high CO2 levels, efficient respiration, high mineral/H2O flux, and sensitivity of cells to androgens, to one characterized by respiration hampered by histamine and nitric oxide, under the influence of estrogen, cannot be understated. The sicker your cells are, the less you can handle. Pretty soon you get to a point where cells will not respond to thyroid, metabolism falls even further, and the body is primed for all sorts of dis-ease including degenerative nerve issues like MS or ALS, cancer, dementia, etc.

I would say recovery can be fairly swift (most major issues can probably be cleared in around a month, depending on conditions) once cellular respiration starts to produce enough energy to allow the cells to spend much of their time in a cooperative living state, with highly structured water and efficient metabolism. This absolutely requires lowering the influence of histamine and serotonin and consequently estrogen. Some steps you can take to do this are;

- Limiting low blood sugar. Keeping the cells in an environment where if they need fuel on short notice, they're able to get it. This includes large blood sugar drops at night.
- Keeping salt intake high. Through many mechanisms, this can help keep the metabolic machinery moving even in the presence of assault.
- Encourage the turnover of histamine and serotonin. The best thing I've found is bright sunshine. It encourages the activity of MAO and DAO (enzymes that process histamine and serotonin.) Get as much of as it you can.
- Neuromodulatory amino acids like glycine. Be careful on the dosing with things like this (including taurine.) Sometimes less is more, and more is way too much. High doses of things like this are indicated for only very short term.
- Bag breathing/exercises and increasing CO2. This was huge for me, partly because it gave me a lot of opportunity to listen to my body and realize what happens to the nervous tone depending on how I'm breathing. If you allow yourself to get slightly starved for air, and be OK with it, it changes the tone of the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. You will maybe notice a little sweat breaking out on your forehead as you do this. This is good, it means that the CO2 is doing it's job and cells are expelling water. On that note, if you notice you're not very liable to sweat, and you're urinating a lot, this is a good indication that the cells are not responding very well and metabolism may be low.
- Liver health. The liver is the organ responsible for maintaining blood sugar and other nutrient levels. Learn to listen to it. It can sense glucose, amino acids, salt, and many other things through the hepatoportal system. Concentrate on the feelings in the solar plexus area. You should learn to distinguish between when you need glucose, salt, protein, etc.

Some other things off the top of my head are coconut oil, saturated fats are pro metabolic and can be chemically and electrically "insulating" to the different metabolic processes. 4-6tbsp a day is a good amount. Sauna therapy, encourage lots of water/mineral flux in the cell. Sugar, salt, and sunshine are going to be extremely helpful. I see you're starting some red light therapy, this is excellent. Aspirin can help to oppose the effects of estrogen and histamine, and can consequently lower the influence of serotonin. Use it cautiously, though. Make sure thyroid status is adequate. If your TSH is under 1.5, you probably don't need any supplementation. Over 1.5, a VERY small amount of T4 (<50mcg/day) may be appropriate. I would probably hold off on thyroid supplements until you start to feel damn decent, otherwise it will make things harder. I like to look at pictures of smiling faces in the morning, this is pro-metabolic. If you're tired, sleep.

I've attached a few links to some interviews with Dr. Peat (from KMUD, these series of shows are GOLD by the way,) most of the info I'm presenting here I think would be considered "Classic Peat" as far as the metabolic details are concerned.
Herb Doctors: Autonomic Nervous System (2013)
Herb Doctors: Blood Pressure Regulation Heart Failure and Muscle Atrophy (2012)
Herb Doctors: Digestion and Emotion (NEW 2015)"

I don't believe the links are working, but they can easily be searched.

Dave........You seem to be pretty knowledgeable about this whole bit with sugar and cortisol and i was looking for one of your posts on the subject, esp. about the cortisol drop. maybe it was in the Metergoline thread.

I'm struggling with a lot of the same stuff: very high cortisol (I've got a lot of muscle wasting now) with 2 traumas in my system, my T3 is a little low and I'm not eating a lot of PUFAs.

But this cortisol drop is really getting to me now because my metabolism is higher now and I'm getting changes I've never got before. I'm using bag breathing and a Klaire BiCarb tab once a day. Rat is even able to tolerate Cypro now and it's giving me some sustained effects for the first time. I think serotonin antagonism is good for increased O2, because it has an immobilizing effect on the metabolism. I can even tolerate Naltrexone now which is tailormade for getting O2 up because the opioids are a major brake on O2 metabolism. One drop of Lapodin, 6-8 drops of Estroban and 2-3 drops of Progest-E every couple of days.

I tried the Metergoline, got the "drop". I saw you didn't like it. Did you get a drop? But what's really got me puzzled now is that i can't even take those 2 - 3 drops of Prog (on the gums) without a drop. The drop i get is staggering. The bottom drops out and I get seriously disoriented. So this is a sugar drop???

is this like when haidut says that fat and sugar are blocking each other's oxidation? I mean, I'm not going out of my way to load up on fat. But it's everywhere. So apparently I have sugar in my system but when cortisol gets reduced, sugar drops because it's not getting taken up well???

haidut also says stress hormones promote fat oxidation and oppose sugar oxidation. I have to assume my stress hormones are very high but my thyroid looks to be not that low. And I have huge problems with the stress reducers. Pregnenolone makes me feel possessed. So does DHEA.

This "drop" thing is my obstacle now. I'm feeling better than ever but I'm having trouble sorting out all these stress dynamics. I'm not much of a science guy and I'm pretty new to this.

Does any of this resonate with you? Do i have any kind of a understanding of this thing?

 

[DaveFoster]

Dave........You seem to be pretty knowledgeable about this whole bit with sugar and cortisol and i was looking for one of your posts on the subject, esp. about the cortisol drop. maybe it was in the Metergoline thread.

I'm struggling with a lot of the same stuff: very high cortisol (I've got a lot of muscle wasting now) with 2 traumas in my system, my T3 is a little low and I'm not eating a lot of PUFAs.

But this cortisol drop is really getting to me now because my metabolism is higher now and I'm getting changes I've never got before. I'm using bag breathing and a Klaire BiCarb tab once a day. Rat is even able to tolerate Cypro now and it's giving me some sustained effects for the first time. I think serotonin antagonism is good for increased O2, because it has an immobilizing effect on the metabolism. I can even tolerate Naltrexone now which is tailormade for getting O2 up because the opioids are a major brake on O2 metabolism. One drop of Lapodin, 6-8 drops of Estroban and 2-3 drops of Progest-E every couple of days.

I tried the Metergoline, got the "drop". I saw you didn't like it. Did you get a drop? But what's really got me puzzled now is that i can't even take those 2 - 3 drops of Prog (on the gums) without a drop. The drop i get is staggering. The bottom drops out and I get seriously disoriented. So this is a sugar drop???

is this like when haidut says that fat and sugar are blocking each other's oxidation? I mean, I'm not going out of my way to load up on fat. But it's everywhere. So apparently I have sugar in my system but when cortisol gets reduced, sugar drops because it's not getting taken up well???

haidut also says stress hormones promote fat oxidation and oppose sugar oxidation. I have to assume my stress hormones are very high but my thyroid looks to be not that low. And I have huge problems with the stress reducers. Pregnenolone makes me feel possessed. So does DHEA.

This "drop" thing is my obstacle now. I'm feeling better than ever but I'm having trouble sorting out all these stress dynamics. I'm not much of a science guy and I'm pretty new to this.

Does any of this resonate with you? Do i have any kind of a understanding of this thing?

It sounds like you're using anti-serotonin drugs (metergoline) in place of thyroid.

Foster’s Thyroid Protocol

 

[Owen B]

It sounds like you're using anti-serotonin drugs (metergoline) in place of thyroid.

Foster’s Thyroid Protocol

I'm not sure what you mean by using anti-serotonin drugs in place of thyroid. I only used Met once. The Cypro i use regularly (though i learn that it's good to cycle off it for a while). How do you see the importance of thyroid? Why do you feel you have to use such low doses in your protocol? It sounds like your stress hormones are high if you have to sensitize so much. That's what I'm worried about with thyroid: pushing up against high stress. What's better, getting stress hormones down first or getting thyroid up? Are you saying that good thyroid levels are good for the cortisol/sugar drops?

 

[DaveFoster]

I'm not sure what you mean by using anti-serotonin drugs in place of thyroid. I only used Met once. The Cypro i use regularly (though i learn that it's good to cycle off it for a while). How do you see the importance of thyroid? Why do you feel you have to use such low doses in your protocol? It sounds like your stress hormones are high if you have to sensitize so much. That's what I'm worried about with thyroid: pushing up against high stress. What's better, getting stress hormones down first or getting thyroid up? Are you saying that good thyroid levels are good for the cortisol/sugar drops?

Generally, thyroid will decrease your dependency on the stress hormones as your blood sugar levels become more stable.

Some people have increased sensitivity to hormones, particularly thyroid.

 

[tomisonbottom]

I've been having some conversations with Diokine, who's been a huge help to me, and he made this layout, which I think can benefit some people who are trapped in a cycle of hypothyroidism, high cortisol, adrenaline, serotonin, histamine, and estrogen.

"The effects of unmitigated stress in the body are devastating. A lot of things play into it, but when you start getting into a situation where the body is not able accurately reflect it's current energy stores, or it's not able to manipulate the cellular environment through different nervous tones, big problems become apparent. The shift from an environment characterized by high CO2 levels, efficient respiration, high mineral/H2O flux, and sensitivity of cells to androgens, to one characterized by respiration hampered by histamine and nitric oxide, under the influence of estrogen, cannot be understated. The sicker your cells are, the less you can handle. Pretty soon you get to a point where cells will not respond to thyroid, metabolism falls even further, and the body is primed for all sorts of dis-ease including degenerative nerve issues like MS or ALS, cancer, dementia, etc.

I would say recovery can be fairly swift (most major issues can probably be cleared in around a month, depending on conditions) once cellular respiration starts to produce enough energy to allow the cells to spend much of their time in a cooperative living state, with highly structured water and efficient metabolism. This absolutely requires lowering the influence of histamine and serotonin and consequently estrogen. Some steps you can take to do this are;

- Limiting low blood sugar. Keeping the cells in an environment where if they need fuel on short notice, they're able to get it. This includes large blood sugar drops at night.
- Keeping salt intake high. Through many mechanisms, this can help keep the metabolic machinery moving even in the presence of assault.
- Encourage the turnover of histamine and serotonin. The best thing I've found is bright sunshine. It encourages the activity of MAO and DAO (enzymes that process histamine and serotonin.) Get as much of as it you can.
- Neuromodulatory amino acids like glycine. Be careful on the dosing with things like this (including taurine.) Sometimes less is more, and more is way too much. High doses of things like this are indicated for only very short term.
- Bag breathing/exercises and increasing CO2. This was huge for me, partly because it gave me a lot of opportunity to listen to my body and realize what happens to the nervous tone depending on how I'm breathing. If you allow yourself to get slightly starved for air, and be OK with it, it changes the tone of the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. You will maybe notice a little sweat breaking out on your forehead as you do this. This is good, it means that the CO2 is doing it's job and cells are expelling water. On that note, if you notice you're not very liable to sweat, and you're urinating a lot, this is a good indication that the cells are not responding very well and metabolism may be low.
- Liver health. The liver is the organ responsible for maintaining blood sugar and other nutrient levels. Learn to listen to it. It can sense glucose, amino acids, salt, and many other things through the hepatoportal system. Concentrate on the feelings in the solar plexus area. You should learn to distinguish between when you need glucose, salt, protein, etc.

Some other things off the top of my head are coconut oil, saturated fats are pro metabolic and can be chemically and electrically "insulating" to the different metabolic processes. 4-6tbsp a day is a good amount. Sauna therapy, encourage lots of water/mineral flux in the cell. Sugar, salt, and sunshine are going to be extremely helpful. I see you're starting some red light therapy, this is excellent. Aspirin can help to oppose the effects of estrogen and histamine, and can consequently lower the influence of serotonin. Use it cautiously, though. Make sure thyroid status is adequate. If your TSH is under 1.5, you probably don't need any supplementation. Over 1.5, a VERY small amount of T4 (<50mcg/day) may be appropriate. I would probably hold off on thyroid supplements until you start to feel damn decent, otherwise it will make things harder. I like to look at pictures of smiling faces in the morning, this is pro-metabolic. If you're tired, sleep.

I've attached a few links to some interviews with Dr. Peat (from KMUD, these series of shows are GOLD by the way,) most of the info I'm presenting here I think would be considered "Classic Peat" as far as the metabolic details are concerned.
Herb Doctors: Autonomic Nervous System (2013)
Herb Doctors: Blood Pressure Regulation Heart Failure and Muscle Atrophy (2012)
Herb Doctors: Digestion and Emotion (NEW 2015)"

I don't believe the links are working, but they can easily be searched.

Do you still take 4-6 tbsp of coconut oil?

How do you get that much down? Just mixing it in food? I've tried supplementing and straight fat makes me feel sick, but I find it hard to incorporate because it doesn't go well with juice/milk/coffee/fruit, etc. Soup, or broth seems like the only good option, if you don't eat starch.

And do you still think thyroid supplementation isn't a good idea for someone sick?
That seems strange to me, because thyroid is the most predominant thing Peat recommends for almost any health issues, and he almost always ends up coming back to hypothyroidism as the most common cause for poor health.

 

[lollipop]

Do you still take 4-6 tbsp of coconut oil?

How do you get that much down? Just mixing it in food? I've tried supplementing and straight fat makes me feel sick, but I find it hard to incorporate because it doesn't go well with juice/milk/coffee/fruit, etc. Soup, or broth seems like the only good option, if you don't eat starch.

And do you still think thyroid supplementation isn't a good idea for someone sick?
That seems strange to me, because thyroid is the most predominant thing Peat recommends for almost any health issues, and he almost always ends up coming back to hypothyroidism as the most common cause for poor health.

Hiw about putting cocoa butter on your skin?

 

[tomisonbottom]

Hiw about putting cocoa butter on your skin?

That's a good idea, but harder to gauge doses. I have been able to rub in coconut oil and have it absorb fine if it mix it with some diluted glycerin too.

So with topical, you'd need about 5-10 times the amount to get the same effective dose oral, right?

 

[DaveFoster]

Do you still take 4-6 tbsp of coconut oil?

How do you get that much down? Just mixing it in food? I've tried supplementing and straight fat makes me feel sick, but I find it hard to incorporate because it doesn't go well with juice/milk/coffee/fruit, etc. Soup, or broth seems like the only good option, if you don't eat starch.

And do you still think thyroid supplementation isn't a good idea for someone sick?
That seems strange to me, because thyroid is the most predominant thing Peat recommends for almost any health issues, and he almost always ends up coming back to hypothyroidism as the most common cause for poor health.

The whole idea being that we can trace any adaptive change, such as a structural "degeneration" as an alternative to death for the energy depleted organism.

No, and it's difficult to eat 4-6 TBSP coconut oil without starch unless you deep-fry skinless chicken (as with chicken tenders, or unbreaded if you don't prefer, but the starch content would be small.)

Dr. Peat's referral to refraining from thyroid supplementation concerns those severely compromised in their health, such as those in danger of a vascular event or something similar.

 

[Luann]

- Encourage the turnover of histamine and serotonin. The best thing I've found is bright sunshine. It encourages the activity of MAO and DAO (enzymes that process histamine and serotonin.) Get as much of as it you can.

I'm not sleeping much: stuffed up and lots of mental "churning". I took a cetirizine HCl last night and slept really well for a few hours before work.

 

[DaveFoster]

I'm not sleeping much: stuffed up and lots of mental "churning". I took a cetirizine HCl last night and slept really well for a few hours before work.

Psychiatrists prescribe hydroxyzine for anxiety, as well as insomnia, and cetirizine has a similar structure to hydroxyzine. Both drugs stress the liver though.

 

[Luann]

Good to know, I'll use it minimally. I did feel quite social the next morning