Hypothyroid Recovery Primer

[DaveFoster]

I've been having some conversations with Diokine, who's been a huge help to me, and he made this layout, which I think can benefit some people who are trapped in a cycle of hypothyroidism, high cortisol, adrenaline, serotonin, histamine, and estrogen.

"The effects of unmitigated stress in the body are devastating. A lot of things play into it, but when you start getting into a situation where the body is not able accurately reflect it's current energy stores, or it's not able to manipulate the cellular environment through different nervous tones, big problems become apparent. The shift from an environment characterized by high CO2 levels, efficient respiration, high mineral/H2O flux, and sensitivity of cells to androgens, to one characterized by respiration hampered by histamine and nitric oxide, under the influence of estrogen, cannot be understated. The sicker your cells are, the less you can handle. Pretty soon you get to a point where cells will not respond to thyroid, metabolism falls even further, and the body is primed for all sorts of dis-ease including degenerative nerve issues like MS or ALS, cancer, dementia, etc.

I would say recovery can be fairly swift (most major issues can probably be cleared in around a month, depending on conditions) once cellular respiration starts to produce enough energy to allow the cells to spend much of their time in a cooperative living state, with highly structured water and efficient metabolism. This absolutely requires lowering the influence of histamine and serotonin and consequently estrogen. Some steps you can take to do this are;

- Limiting low blood sugar. Keeping the cells in an environment where if they need fuel on short notice, they're able to get it. This includes large blood sugar drops at night.
- Keeping salt intake high. Through many mechanisms, this can help keep the metabolic machinery moving even in the presence of assault.
- Encourage the turnover of histamine and serotonin. The best thing I've found is bright sunshine. It encourages the activity of MAO and DAO (enzymes that process histamine and serotonin.) Get as much of as it you can.
- Neuromodulatory amino acids like glycine. Be careful on the dosing with things like this (including taurine.) Sometimes less is more, and more is way too much. High doses of things like this are indicated for only very short term.
- Bag breathing/exercises and increasing CO2. This was huge for me, partly because it gave me a lot of opportunity to listen to my body and realize what happens to the nervous tone depending on how I'm breathing. If you allow yourself to get slightly starved for air, and be OK with it, it changes the tone of the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. You will maybe notice a little sweat breaking out on your forehead as you do this. This is good, it means that the CO2 is doing it's job and cells are expelling water. On that note, if you notice you're not very liable to sweat, and you're urinating a lot, this is a good indication that the cells are not responding very well and metabolism may be low.
- Liver health. The liver is the organ responsible for maintaining blood sugar and other nutrient levels. Learn to listen to it. It can sense glucose, amino acids, salt, and many other things through the hepatoportal system. Concentrate on the feelings in the solar plexus area. You should learn to distinguish between when you need glucose, salt, protein, etc.

Some other things off the top of my head are coconut oil, saturated fats are pro metabolic and can be chemically and electrically "insulating" to the different metabolic processes. 4-6tbsp a day is a good amount. Sauna therapy, encourage lots of water/mineral flux in the cell. Sugar, salt, and sunshine are going to be extremely helpful. I see you're starting some red light therapy, this is excellent. Aspirin can help to oppose the effects of estrogen and histamine, and can consequently lower the influence of serotonin. Use it cautiously, though. Make sure thyroid status is adequate. If your TSH is under 1.5, you probably don't need any supplementation. Over 1.5, a VERY small amount of T4 (<50mcg/day) may be appropriate. I would probably hold off on thyroid supplements until you start to feel damn decent, otherwise it will make things harder. I like to look at pictures of smiling faces in the morning, this is pro-metabolic. If you're tired, sleep.

I've attached a few links to some interviews with Dr. Peat (from KMUD, these series of shows are GOLD by the way,) most of the info I'm presenting here I think would be considered "Classic Peat" as far as the metabolic details are concerned.
Herb Doctors: Autonomic Nervous System (2013)
Herb Doctors: Blood Pressure Regulation Heart Failure and Muscle Atrophy (2012)
Herb Doctors: Digestion and Emotion (NEW 2015)"

I don't believe the links are working, but they can easily be searched.

 

[Giraffe]

I don't believe the links are working, but they can easily be searched.

All three have been transcribed. Links to the audio files have been posted with the transcripts.

Learned Helplessness, KMUD, 2013
Blood Pressure Regulation, Heart Failure And Muscle Atrophy - Kmud, 2012-07-20
Digestion and emotion, KMUD, january 2015

 

[Bulletproof?]

I've been having some conversations with Diokine, who's been a huge help to me, and he made this layout, which I think can benefit some people who are trapped in a cycle of hypothyroidism, high cortisol, adrenaline, serotonin, histamine, and estrogen.

"The effects of unmitigated stress in the body are devastating. A lot of things play into it, but when you start getting into a situation where the body is not able accurately reflect it's current energy stores, or it's not able to manipulate the cellular environment through different nervous tones, big problems become apparent. The shift from an environment characterized by high CO2 levels, efficient respiration, high mineral/H2O flux, and sensitivity of cells to androgens, to one characterized by respiration hampered by histamine and nitric oxide, under the influence of estrogen, cannot be understated. The sicker your cells are, the less you can handle. Pretty soon you get to a point where cells will not respond to thyroid, metabolism falls even further, and the body is primed for all sorts of dis-ease including degenerative nerve issues like MS or ALS, cancer, dementia, etc.

I would say recovery can be fairly swift (most major issues can probably be cleared in around a month, depending on conditions) once cellular respiration starts to produce enough energy to allow the cells to spend much of their time in a cooperative living state, with highly structured water and efficient metabolism. This absolutely requires lowering the influence of histamine and serotonin and consequently estrogen. Some steps you can take to do this are;

- Limiting low blood sugar. Keeping the cells in an environment where if they need fuel on short notice, they're able to get it. This includes large blood sugar drops at night.
- Keeping salt intake high. Through many mechanisms, this can help keep the metabolic machinery moving even in the presence of assault.
- Encourage the turnover of histamine and serotonin. The best thing I've found is bright sunshine. It encourages the activity of MAO and DAO (enzymes that process histamine and serotonin.) Get as much of as it you can.
- Neuromodulatory amino acids like glycine. Be careful on the dosing with things like this (including taurine.) Sometimes less is more, and more is way too much. High doses of things like this are indicated for only very short term.
- Bag breathing/exercises and increasing CO2. This was huge for me, partly because it gave me a lot of opportunity to listen to my body and realize what happens to the nervous tone depending on how I'm breathing. If you allow yourself to get slightly starved for air, and be OK with it, it changes the tone of the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. You will maybe notice a little sweat breaking out on your forehead as you do this. This is good, it means that the CO2 is doing it's job and cells are expelling water. On that note, if you notice you're not very liable to sweat, and you're urinating a lot, this is a good indication that the cells are not responding very well and metabolism may be low.
- Liver health. The liver is the organ responsible for maintaining blood sugar and other nutrient levels. Learn to listen to it. It can sense glucose, amino acids, salt, and many other things through the hepatoportal system. Concentrate on the feelings in the solar plexus area. You should learn to distinguish between when you need glucose, salt, protein, etc.

Some other things off the top of my head are coconut oil, saturated fats are pro metabolic and can be chemically and electrically "insulating" to the different metabolic processes. 4-6tbsp a day is a good amount. Sauna therapy, encourage lots of water/mineral flux in the cell. Sugar, salt, and sunshine are going to be extremely helpful. I see you're starting some red light therapy, this is excellent. Aspirin can help to oppose the effects of estrogen and histamine, and can consequently lower the influence of serotonin. Use it cautiously, though. Make sure thyroid status is adequate. If your TSH is under 1.5, you probably don't need any supplementation. Over 1.5, a VERY small amount of T4 (<50mcg/day) may be appropriate. I would probably hold off on thyroid supplements until you start to feel damn decent, otherwise it will make things harder. I like to look at pictures of smiling faces in the morning, this is pro-metabolic. If you're tired, sleep.

I've attached a few links to some interviews with Dr. Peat (from KMUD, these series of shows are GOLD by the way,) most of the info I'm presenting here I think would be considered "Classic Peat" as far as the metabolic details are concerned.
Herb Doctors: Autonomic Nervous System (2013)
Herb Doctors: Blood Pressure Regulation Heart Failure and Muscle Atrophy (2012)
Herb Doctors: Digestion and Emotion (NEW 2015)"

I don't believe the links are working, but they can easily be searched.

What can be done if you can breath in a bag and not feel anything at all? I could literally breath in a bag all day long, so I'm apparently not making any CO2

 

[DaveFoster]

@Giraffe Thanks for the links.

What can be done if you can breath in a bag and not feel anything at all? I could literally breath in a bag all day long, so I'm apparently not making any CO2

From personal experience, elevated stress hormones will prevent any effect from bag breathing. Plenty of sugar and salt, along with bag breathing (and Buteyko breathing as well), should help the situation, along with a low PUFA, Peat-inspired diet.

 

[Simonsays]

people who are trapped in a cycle of hypothyroidism, high cortisol, adrenaline, serotonin, histamine, and estrogen.

Yep, thats me. This has been really useful, thank you so much, Dave.. It pretty much answers a lot of questions for me. I wish i had read it months ago.

Could this become a stickie for newbies?? I think its really useful , as i think many that come to Ray Peat stumble about in the dark and then go overboard, or just get so confused. Well i did.

Im 51, and overweight been hypo for God knows how long, rosacea now, estrogen dominance etc and discovered Ray Peat last year. Edema signs. Ohh and now low testosterone . Ive been lurking for a long time making the odd post and hoovering up much information.

Ive recently been following low fat diet/ no starch for both losing weight, rosacea (low starch seems to be working for the rosacea, endotoxin/ leaky gut/candida going on?? Sneezing fits , so histamine/serotonin??) and help de fat the liver (high enzymes in the past, i was asked about my alcohol intake,, very low, so probably NAFLD).

I have had, like many i guess, followed too many fad diets, (blood group was one , as "o" group apparently have unstable thyroids, which attracted me , back in the 90's,, dont know any evidence for this though??). Too much PUFA of course. Low sugar.

Now, I do the carrot salad nearly every day, half an aspirin now and again. Liver/oysters/scallops once a week. Gallons of low fat milk, ditto OJ, some Pepsi. I avoided sugar for ages, like most. Some muscle meats, (my body craves protein, more than anything, which milk doesnt seem to satisfy).

Epsom salt baths. Salt . PUFA out, some spinach for VitE. Some Coconut Oil.

I also do some weights at home, heavy but short bursts, not more than 30 seconds at time. I definitely noticed im losing fat (yippee, i know, slowly slowly!!), as in my waist size is shrinking. More muscle , but ive never had a problem with muscle, always fat.

Two questions.

Vit E? ive tried Unique E and Swansons Ultra and get IBS symptoms, diarrhea. I guess my gut is super sensitive. Viscosity issues?? Any ideas??

My T4 was increased by my Endocrinologist to 200 mgms, but i started to develop "missed heartbeats"because i think of pooling T4 overmedication, so i dropped back to 175. Its pretty much gone now. I know t4 can act as antithyroid. How do i know how to, hopefully reduce T4 dosage, to stop this anti thyroid affect. Trial and error, rely on TSH.??

I was going to go down the T3 route, but i was reading a post by Haidut, that this wont be a good idea , until liver /gut intestines / estrogen dominance are resolved??

One thing re thyroid, is my pulse has always been good,as in always around 85, but my waking temp around the 35.7 - 36.2 mark in morning. Rising during the day. Very tired in mornings, despite good nights sleep. OJ and salty milk with a touch of bicarb before bed , plus C-pap machine for apnoea (hypo symptom)

I know that this wont happen over night and my body has suffered had enormous amount of stress (emotional and nutritional) for many years. Its a long slog.

All comments welcomed, i know this is a well worn path for many.

 

[tara]

I could literally breath in a bag all day long, so I'm apparently not making any CO2

Having large holes in the bag, or large gaps between mouth/nose and bag, or a bag made of very gas-porous material, or having a bag as large as a room, or being dead, may prevent bag-breathing over an extended period from having any effect.
Otherwise I would expect the oxygen level in the bag to eventually get too low, causing significant distress (or eventually no more distress ever) or the removal of the bag. Before that, the CO2 level would normally rise enough to have some effect at least temporarily (usually but not always positive, depending on how much and one's initial state). To get lasting good effects, addressing other factors including diet and lifestyle are likely also helpful.

 

[DaveFoster]

Yep, thats me. This has been really useful, thank you so much, Dave.. It pretty much answers a lot of questions for me. I wish i had read it months ago.

Could this become a stickie for newbies?? I think its really useful , as i think many that come to Ray Peat stumble about in the dark and then go overboard, or just get so confused. Well i did.

Im 51, and overweight been hypo for God knows how long, rosacea now, estrogen dominance etc and discovered Ray Peat last year. Edema signs. Ohh and now low testosterone . Ive been lurking for a long time making the odd post and hoovering up much information.

Ive recently been following low fat diet/ no starch for both losing weight, rosacea (low starch seems to be working for the rosacea, endotoxin/ leaky gut/candida going on?? Sneezing fits , so histamine/serotonin??) and help de fat the liver (high enzymes in the past, i was asked about my alcohol intake,, very low, so probably NAFLD).

I have had, like many i guess, followed too many fad diets, (blood group was one , as "o" group apparently have unstable thyroids, which attracted me , back in the 90's,, dont know any evidence for this though??). Too much PUFA of course. Low sugar.

Now, I do the carrot salad nearly every day, half an aspirin now and again. Liver/oysters/scallops once a week. Gallons of low fat milk, ditto OJ, some Pepsi. I avoided sugar for ages, like most. Some muscle meats, (my body craves protein, more than anything, which milk doesnt seem to satisfy).

Epsom salt baths. Salt . PUFA out, some spinach for VitE. Some Coconut Oil.

I also do some weights at home, heavy but short bursts, not more than 30 seconds at time. I definitely noticed im losing fat (yippee, i know, slowly slowly!!), as in my waist size is shrinking. More muscle , but ive never had a problem with muscle, always fat.

Two questions.

Vit E? ive tried Unique E and Swansons Ultra and get IBS symptoms, diarrhea. I guess my gut is super sensitive. Viscosity issues?? Any ideas??

My T4 was increased by my Endocrinologist to 200 mgms, but i started to develop "missed heartbeats"because i think of pooling T4 overmedication, so i dropped back to 175. Its pretty much gone now. I know t4 can act as antithyroid. How do i know how to, hopefully reduce T4 dosage, to stop this anti thyroid affect. Trial and error, rely on TSH.??

I was going to go down the T3 route, but i was reading a post by Haidut, that this wont be a good idea , until liver /gut intestines / estrogen dominance are resolved??

One thing re thyroid, is my pulse has always been good,as in always around 85, but my waking temp around the 35.7 - 36.2 mark in morning. Rising during the day. Very tired in mornings, despite good nights sleep. OJ and salty milk with a touch of bicarb before bed , plus C-pap machine for apnoea (hypo symptom)

I know that this wont happen over night and my body has suffered had enormous amount of stress (emotional and nutritional) for many years. Its a long slog.

All comments welcomed, i know this is a well worn path for many.

You're welcome, but thank Diokine. He's the one who came up with it. I wish we had stickies on the forum.

Some people can't tolerate oral vitamin E. The problem is common.

NDT (a formulation that includes T4, T3, T2, T1, and calcitonin) works better than T4 or T3 alone. I recommend Thiroyd by Pimpom products, along with accompanying labs from your doctor, of course.

For resolving estrogen, you have most things covered. Slow your respiratory rate, decrease your stress level, and increase your sugar intake. Add glycine to your protein; anywhere from 3-30 grams. (You can even go up to 60 grams, as I've done so and experienced only positive effects). Taurine (3-10 grams/day) will help as well.

 

[tara]

Slow your respiratory rate, ...

Breathing rate. (Respiratory rate sometimes refers to the cellular respiration, which we may be hoping to increase at the same times as reducing breathing rate.)
Pedantic? Guilty. Just trying to keep the concepts clear. :)

Taurine (3-10 grams/day) will help as well.

Some people do well with this amount, but again, starting smaller (eg 500-1000mg) may be enough, or at least an easier way to start even if you end up wanting more. Some people have had trouble when adding several grams of supplemental taurine.

 

[superhuman]

Thank you. Thats cool

@DaveFoster he did not mention anything in regards to protein and protein amount?

 

[DaveFoster]

Thank you. Thats cool

@DaveFoster he did not mention anything in regards to protein and protein amount?

I don't think so. Ray's minimum of 80-100 g seems like a decent amount, and it's backed by studies on varying protein intake effects on protein synthesis, where 0.64-0.82 g/lb lean body mass stands as the cut off point for anabolic benefits.

 

[superhuman]

@DaveFoster get you. What about salt, how much are we talking about? i dont crave it and its hard to get it in when i use mostly milk etc etc and foods that does not lend themselves to much salt.

 

[DaveFoster]

@DaveFoster get you. What about salt, how much are we talking about? i dont crave it and its hard to get it in when i use mostly milk etc etc and foods that does not lend themselves to much salt.

Optimal Sodium Intake Is At Least 230% Higher Than RDA

Minimum of 4-5 grams. For me, I add baking soda to my OJ concentrate, blend until it froths down, then add coconut oil, milk, and sugar. I do about TBSP/day, plus added salt in the carrot salad.

You could always just over salt your carrot salad, but it gets tedious after a while.

 

[James_001]

Good info, but good luck clearing most issues in a month, especially if you have a stressful work/school environment...

 

[Simonsays]

Thank you Dave and Tara, i forgot to mention i swig! a little bit of Mountain Lakes gelatin neat a few times every day. Cos im hardcore and also lazy. Is that the glycine covered?

I was taking a Taurine supplement, but stopped as i read on here somewhere about prolonged taurine used not good?

Ive bought a magnesium citrate supplement after running out. Would you advise taking it??

Every now and again, i still indulge in some serious muscle meats, usually chicken (no skin) , lamb, steak (ive always loved my meat), but now i notice im seriously wiped out the next day. My morning temps drop to 35.5 or so, really tired.

Does anyone (hypo people) else get these reactions?

 

[m_arch]

Breathing rate. (Respiratory rate sometimes refers to the cellular respiration, which we may be hoping to increase at the same times as reducing breathing rate.)
Pedantic? Guilty. Just trying to keep the concepts clear. :)

Not pedantic! We live in a confusing world :p

 

[firebreather]

Dave, this is some really good stuff.

You recently replied to one of my threads about sugar causing inflammation suggesting that my body is burning fatty acids instead of sugar.

For someone dealing with that do you still suggest as much coconut oil?

 

[DaveFoster]

Thank you Dave and Tara, i forgot to mention i swig! a little bit of Mountain Lakes gelatin neat a few times every day. Cos im hardcore and also lazy. Is that the glycine covered?

I was taking a Taurine supplement, but stopped as i read on here somewhere about prolonged taurine used not good?

Ive bought a magnesium citrate supplement after running out. Would you advise taking it??

Every now and again, i still indulge in some serious muscle meats, usually chicken (no skin) , lamb, steak (ive always loved my meat), but now i notice im seriously wiped out the next day. My morning temps drop to 35.5 or so, really tired.

Does anyone (hypo people) else get these reactions?

Prolonged taurine consumption in high doses may deplete beta alanine, but this shouldn't be a problem in doses of 1-5 grams/day. There are numerous benefits to taurine; haidut frequently references it as a powerful substance.

Dave, this is some really good stuff.

You recently replied to one of my threads about sugar causing inflammation suggesting that my body is burning fatty acids instead of sugar.

For someone dealing with that do you still suggest as much coconut oil?

I think coconut oil is protective in all situations, and I think Ray would agree. You should gradually introduce it, a teaspoon at a time.

I think the carrot salad is important.

 

[firebreather]

I think coconut oil is protective in all situations, and I think Ray would agree. You should gradually introduce it, a teaspoon at a time.

I think the carrot salad is important.

Thank you so much for the great info

 

[Bulletproof?]

Prolonged taurine consumption in high doses may deplete beta alanine, but this shouldn't be a problem in doses of 1-5 grams/day. There are numerous benefits to taurine; haidut frequently references it as a powerful substance.

I think coconut oil is protective in all situations, and I think Ray would agree. You should gradually introduce it, a teaspoon at a time.

I think the carrot salad is important.

Coconut oil is Protective In ALL situations? I've been trying to deplete PUFAby limiting all fat to 20g or less. I agree that Coconut oil is very good for you, but maybe not while trying to deplete PUFA?

 

[DaveFoster]

Coconut oil is Protective In ALL situations? I've been trying to deplete PUFAby limiting all fat to 20g or less. I agree that Coconut oil is very good for you, but maybe not while trying to deplete PUFA?

Protective /=/ beneficial for your specific goals.

To deplete PUFA, I'd recommend to keep fat as low as humanly possible for a period of around 30 - 90 days, and then only eating coconut oil (ideally fully hydrogenated) as your fat source.