Saturated Fat TERRIBLE For Liver Health & Diabetes. Compared To PUFA

[damngoodcoffee]

Saturated fat has a plethora of benefits, your needless scaremongering could damage people whose health could benefit from eating fat, when you have simply got it a little bit mixed up.

I never got the impression from Jessie that he thinks fat is 100% evil. He's just sharing his thoughts on what might be happening. Big deal. And he's not forcing anything on anybody. People can make their own decisions on what to try. We're bound to make mistakes anyway.

All I'm saying is that you have got the wrong end of the stick with these two facts, and should stop promoting things which are factually wrong, as if they are right.

Dude, this is crazy. Welcome to online forums, people disagree on stuff. No need to tell people to stop saying anything, just speak your mind on why you disagree and move on.

 

[Maljam]

I never got the impression from Jessie that he thinks fat is 100% evil. He's just sharing his thoughts on what might be happening. Big deal. And he's not forcing anything on anybody. People can make their own decisions on what to try. We're bound to make mistakes anyway.

Dude, this is crazy. Welcome to online forums, people disagree on stuff. No need to tell people to stop saying anything, just speak your mind on why you disagree and move on.

I think people should make their own decisions based on factually accurate information. For example "fat increases serotonin" and "high fat diets increase serotonin" are two entirely different concepts. His exact source doesn't back up his claims, I'm not sure what is such an issue for people with this.

I do speak my mind and tell him why I disagree on each post of his?

 

[damngoodcoffee]

I think people should make their own decisions based on factually accurate information.

Good luck getting rid of all the inaccurate information in the world.

I do speak my mind and tell him why I disagree on each post of his?

You could just share your information without policing what others post, it's quite rude.

 

[Maljam]

Good luck getting rid of all the inaccurate information in the world.

You could just share your information without policing what others post, it's quite rude.

Who is trying to get rid of all the inaccurate information in the world? All I have done is point out that "fat increases serotonin" and "high fat diets increase serotonin" are different concepts and shouldn't be represented the same. Do you disagree with this?

You said I should disagree with his posts and move on, I disagree every time I see them, are you suggesting I should disagree the first time and then the rest of the times just ignore it? I don't understand what you are wanting me to do.

I'm genuinely struggling to comprehend what the problem is with calling out inaccurate information? You seem to suggest I should call it out but then have issue when I do?

 

[damngoodcoffee]

I'm genuinely struggling to comprehend what the problem is with calling out inaccurate information? You seem to suggest I should call it out but then have issue when I do?

I'm just saying it's enough to share you view about a given topic. And I appreciate you do. But no need to obsess over a particular forum member.

 

[Maljam]

I'm just saying it's enough to share you view about a given topic. And I appreciate you do. But no need to obsess over a particular forum member.

I'm not sure what constitutes "obsessing" about him, I personally don't read peoples names before I read the content of their post, but if there is a comment I disagree I start to write a post. Perhaps this says more about his inability to change his view point after learning new pieces of information than about me?

I also actually said Jessie did good posts, it was just this specific thing I disagreed with. I find it a very odd suggestion that I am obsessing over somebody.

 

[equipoise]

I'm not sure what constitutes "obsessing" about him, I personally don't read peoples names before I read the content of their post, but if there is a comment I disagree I start to write a post. Perhaps this says more about his inability to change his view point after learning new pieces of information than about me?

I also actually said Jessie did good posts, it was just this specific thing I disagreed with. I find it a very odd suggestion that I am obsessing over somebody.

You cannot assume people are gonna take you too serious when you resolve around ad hominem.

Be appreciative of the fact that there is an underground community of people rebelling against the grain - the grain which is usually very wrong at the cost of innocent folk.
Stop trying to persuade your torture tactics on others. There's reddit for that.

 

[Maljam]

You cannot assume people are gonna take you too serious when you resolve around ad hominem.

Be appreciative of the fact that there is an underground community of people rebelling against the grain - the grain which is usually very wrong at the cost of innocent folk.
Stop trying to persuade your torture tactics on others. There's reddit for that.

I have pointed out on more than one occasion Jessie has good posts but I disagree that saturated fat increases serotonin. I haven't seen anybody else say this so how can I disagree with anyone else but him? Please explain how this is ad hominem.

What do you mean by torture tactics?

"Be appreciative" When have I not been appreciative? All I have said is that saturated fat doesn't increase serotonin (which if true, would pretty much bring the research of Peat for the past 50 years crashing down) I'm not sure why everybody is so upset by pointing something out that is so opposite from what this forum is about...

 

[Nuancé]

Don't forget the fermented (rancid) cod liver oil, seems to be the ticket to an early grave Those Ticking Time Bombs Going Off Are WAPF People Dying Too Young - David Gumpert.

Used to take it back in 2012-13, worst tasting thing I've ever eaten And expensive as hell too

This link was very interesting and terrifying too. I didn't imagine that all the WAPF readers die so easily... what a strange idea to recommand rancid O3 fatty acids from a "fermented" oil, it's terrible to see that they are all dead young of serious diseases despite the fact that they were tring to taking care of their health.

You have experienced troubles by taking this fermented oil ? Sorry for my english as usual, I'm not fluent at all haha.

 

[Nuancé]

Ancel Keys' study was not published.They didn't like the results.

40 Yr-old Study On Fats Resurfaces In BMJ

I know this big controversy... but there is too much controversies on PUFA and SFA in observational studies, that's why I try to look at intervention studies.

 

[Nuancé]

It's a forum. Some of the things people say is opinion or theory. Do you really think the forum rule should be that everyone needs to be able to back up everything they say with citations? We're not being graded here... It's just a place for discussion. We need to be free to hash things out.

I for one occasionally play Devil's advocate and may argue with someone even if I don't believe the thing myself. Should I be banned? It encourages discussion and learning. That's why the "anti-peat" threads are fun. They encourage people to not only consider things, but also to dig deeper.



Exactly. But even more-so in the blood, which is filled with oxygen and iron and is warm. People act like once it is in the body it is completely stable forever. But autoxidation does occur in the body, and when it happens it is actually a chain reaction forming an autoxidation chain.

This is common knowledge though, so I am always perplexed when people act like PUFA is ultra stable in the body. Just look at the lowly Wikipedia article on lipid perixidation...

Lipid peroxidation - Wikipedia
"Lipid peroxidation is the oxidative degradation of lipids. It is the process in which free radicals "steal" electrons from the lipids in cell membranes, resulting in cell damage. This process proceeds by a free radical chain reaction mechanism. It most often affects polyunsaturated fatty acids, because they contain multiple double bonds in between which lie methylene bridges (-CH2-) that possess especially reactive hydrogen atoms. As with any radical reaction, the reaction consists of three major steps: initiation, propagation, and termination. The chemical products of this oxidation are known as lipid peroxides or lipid oxidation products (LOPs)."

"The end products of lipid peroxidation are reactive aldehydes, such as malondialdehyde (MDA) and 4-hydroxynonenal (HNE), the second one being known also as "second messenger of free radicals" and major bioactive marker of lipid peroxidation, due to its numerous biological activities resembling activities of reactive oxygen species."


Now, take those end products mentioned above, MDA and HNE (there are more) and plug them into PubMed. Now research all the diseases they are involved in. Or you can wait for the double blind placebo controlled gold standard study done on humans comparing over the course of a lifetime the difference between saturated fat and polyunsaturated fat where group A of humans gets 1 type of fat and group B gets the other, controlled for calorie intake and macros. But I don't think that study will ever happen.

I understand how Peat thinks you know... but when intervention studies on whole foods shows the opposite, it's confusing. It seems more complicate.

Acute effect of nut consumption on plasma total polyphenols, antioxidant capacity and lipid peroxidation - PubMed

"Methods: Thirteen subjects participated in a randomized, crossover, intervention study. After an overnight fast, walnuts, almonds or a control meal in the form of smoothies were consumed by study subjects."

"
Results: There was a significant increase in plasma polyphenol concentration following both nut meals, with peak concentrations being achieved at 90 min, and with a walnut meal having a more sustained higher concentration than an almond meal. The plasma total antioxidant capacity reached its highest point at 150 min postconsumption of the nut meals, and was higher after the almond compared to walnut meal. A gradual significant (P < 0.05) reduction in the susceptibility of plasma to lipid peroxidation was observed 90 min after ingestion of the nut meals. No changes were observed following consumption of control meal.

Conclusions: Consumption of both nuts increased plasma polyphenol concentrations, increased the total antioxidant capacity and reduced plasma lipid peroxidation."

That's my actual thought even if I keep an open mind on every subject in nutrition.
When you eat walnuts, pistachios, almonds... you don't eats only PUFA, but a WHOLE FOOD which contains much more than that. Saying that nut is just toxic PUFA is reductionnism in my opinion.

Almond consumption reduces oxidative DNA damage and lipid peroxidation in male smokers - PubMed

"We investigated whether almond consumption decreases biomarkers of oxidative stress in young male smokers. We conducted a randomized, crossover clinical trial with 60 healthy male soldiers (18-25 y) who were habitual smokers (5-20 cigarettes/d) and supplemented their diet with 84 g almonds or 120 g pork (to control for calories) daily for 4 wk with a 4-wk washout period between treatment periods. In addition, 30 healthy nonsmoking men were provided the same daily serving of pork as reference comparison"

"Blood and urine were collected and assessed for biomarkers of oxidative stress. Baseline values of urinary 8-hydroxy-deoxyguanosine (8-OHdG) and malondialdehyde (MDA) and peripheral lymphocyte DNA strand breaks were significantly higher by 185, 64, and 97% in smokers than nonsmokers, whereas activities of plasma superoxide dismutase (SOD), glutathione peroxidase (GPX), and catalase were significantly lower by 15, 10, and 9%, respectively. After the almond intervention, serum alpha-tocopherol, SOD, and GPX increased significantly in smokers by 10, 35, and 16%, respectively and 8-OHdG, MDA, and DNA strand breaks decreased significantly by 28, 34, and 23%. In smokers, after almond supplementation, the concentration of 8-OHdG remained significantly greater than in nonsmokers by 98%. These results suggest almond intake can enhance antioxidant defenses and diminish biomarkers of oxidative stress in smokers."

Effects of pistachio nuts consumption on plasma lipid profile and oxidative status in healthy volunteers - PubMed

"Methods and results: The study was conducted in 24 healthy men and 20 healthy women. All subjects consumed their regular diets during a 1-week period. After this period, half of the subjects (12 men and 10 women, mean age 32.8 +/- 6.7 years) were randomized to a regular diet group and the other half (12 men and 10 women, mean age 33.4 +/- 7.2 years) were randomized to a pistachio group which involved substituting pistachio nuts for 20% of their daily caloric intake for 3 weeks. Plasma total cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein (LDL), high-density lipoprotein (HDL), triglyceride, malondialdehyde (MDA) and antioxidant potential (AOP) were measured before and after the dietary modification from all the subjects"

"
After 3 weeks, with the pistachio diet, the mean plasma total cholesterol, MDA levels and, total cholesterol/HDL and LDL/HDL ratios were found to be significantly decreased (P < 0.05, P < 0.05, P < 0.001 and P < 0.01, respectively); on the contrary, HDL and AOP levels, and AOP/MDA ratios were significantly increased (P < 0.001, P < 0.05 and P < 0.01, respectively). Triglyceride and LDL levels also decreased but this was not statistically significant (P > 0.05).

Conclusion: These results indicated that consumption of pistachio nuts decreased oxidative stress, and improved total cholesterol and HDL levels in healthy volunteers."

When intakes of NUTS improves levels of the dreaded malondialdehyde (MDA) EVERYTIME... we can't be categorical about them.

 

[Drareg]

That is actually the M.O. of the entire political, medical, economic, educational, deep-state, etc systems. By twisting the argument in their favor based on what they call "state of the art" science (which turns out to be nothing more than assumptions and/or claims based on say a single, unreplicated study done 100 years ago) they claims their position is the currently accepted truth and then demand that YOU do the work while they sit back, relax and get to throw rocks at the shaky/vulnerable (but much more truthful) edifice you built with tremendous effort, and after finding numerous "flaws" in it they laugh condescendingly and quickly declare "victory". It is a type of "denial of service" attack borrowed from the technology sector. It is also a type of bullying now starting to be recognized as a form of psychopathy even by the corrupt/inept field of psychiatry.

Sounds familiar, @Drareg ?

Yep, sure does.
Their systems and "theories" can take years to understand because of the language and vagueness, they pull you into their paradigm for years, an example of the ongoing fraud is quantum engagement and how it’s "meaning" is still more or less ignored, what we measure is what we observe but to claim it’s independent of mind and "out there" is not backed up by the evidence.

With this realization we can use mass hysteria to inform the public and create meanings accordingly.

 

[Giraffe]

I know this big controversy... but there is too much controversies on PUFA and SFA in observational studies, that's why I try to look at intervention studies.

It was an intervention study.

 

[Lollipop2]

Yep, here are some of those studies. They emphasize that the cirrhosis (which is "irreversible" according to mainstream science) was reversed DESPITE continued alcoholism. Those are animal studies but the same effects have been replicated in human studies (done in India, I believe) eating ghee and/or coconut oil.
Dietary saturated fatty acids reverse inflammatory and fibrotic changes in rat liver despite continued ethanol administration - PubMed
Dietary saturated fatty acids: A novel treatment for alcoholic liver disease - ScienceDirect

There are more recent studies confirming the above results, in case somebody complains those Nanji studies are old or not replicated.
Supplementation With (long Chain) Saturated Fats Protects Liver From Alcohol

Finally, if the critics who pop up on this forum every once in a while cared to look deeper into the mechanism they will see that it makes perfect sense for PUFA and alcohol to damage the liver - they have relatively similar effects as a surfactant/solvent and increasing lipid peroxidation.
PUFA Increases Alcohol Damage By Increasing Cell Fluidity; SFA Are Protective

It is precisely this synergistic effect of PUFA with endotoxin, iron, alcohol etc that is behind most dietary liver injuries and it is one of the reasons vitamin E is protective/therapeutic - i.e. it protects from most of the peroxidative processes PUFA/ethanol/iron/endotoxin beget. Tocopherol is a molecule with saturated isoprenoid side chain and its effects are quite similar to the effects of longer chain SFA. So, eating SFA = eating tocopherol. If one accepts that tocopherol is beneficial for the liver, as the human study below shows, then one cannot seriously argue that PUFA are beneficial - i.e. their effects are basically the opposite of each other.
Vitamin E Can Treat/cure Severe Fatty Liver Disease (NASH) In Humans

@Nuancé did you see these studies? I am surprised you haven’t responded.

 

[yerrag]

Thanks!

It had to be 75g of glucose. So I bought maltose from a Chinese grocery, which really very gooey. It cost me about a dollar in Manila, but it's being sold at Amazon for $16.

Amazon $7.65

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00R2LPMDU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_t1ilFb2H907BH

 

[Nuancé]

It was an intervention study.

Ancel Keys ? The Seven Countries study ?

 

[Nuancé]

@Nuancé did you see these studies? I am surprised you haven’t responded.

Rats, rats, rats, rats, rats... or mice, insects and not whole foods, just isolated fatty acids. I prefer to discuss about plausible data, at least on humans. The intervention studies that I've mentioned on nuts reducing MDA for example, and improving triglycerides.

 

[schultz]

That's my actual thought even if I keep an open mind on every subject in nutrition.
When you eat walnuts, pistachios, almonds... you don't eats only PUFA, but a WHOLE FOOD which contains much more than that. Saying that nut is just toxic PUFA is reductionnism in my opinion.

I think nuts can have some good things in them. As far as the polyphenols go (the study you posted) I would think that yes the polyphenols may be helpful in the short-term. However, the fats are stored and the polyphenols are excreted. Now you have the fats in your body without the antioxidant. During a stressful event the fats are released from storage and float around in the blood stream. They are not accompanied by all of the other things that were in the nut (they are indeed like the refined oil at this point). With such an event other things are high like NO or super oxide (being sick with the flu for example) and the PUFA is easily oxidized causing inflammation. Combined with the illness it can create a big chain reaction. The level of damage depends on the person and dozens of things like thyroid status, hormone status, vitamin and mineral intake, etc. etc.

This is how I personally think about it.

Edit: Oh and that's a neat effect from the pistachio study regarding MDA. It seems they have some beneficial qualities. Personally I'd be wary of using them to improve antioxidant status in the long term as they do come with 30% or so PUFA. I feel more comfortable keep MDA low by just avoiding PUFA in the first place, since it is made from PUFA.

 

[schultz]

If someone talks about the mechanism of a macronutrient in relation to endotoxin moving into the bloodstream, yes I think they should back up that with a citation, it is an incredibly specific claim that couldn't be definitively concluded from someone sitting in their house. Do you not think someone should provide a source for that?

It would be nice if they did, but I don't think they should have to.

 

[Giraffe]

Ancel Keys ? The Seven Countries study ?

No, I did not mean the Seven Countries Study. This has been published in 1978. Have you even looked at the link?