Saturated Fat TERRIBLE For Liver Health & Diabetes. Compared To PUFA

yerrag

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oh I didn't know you were monitoring blood sugars. Are you finger pricking or looking at A1c?
I finger prick. I do self-monitoring occasionally with a 5hr OGTT, doing it myself. Since I have done it once before through a lab, and have learned to understand the OGTT curve, I have gone from a sickly 2x flu/year individual to having no fever/flu 20 years running. And Ray Peat's criticism of HbA1c is well stated. What about you?
 

schultz

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Animal studies are better. It's incredibly difficult to design a good human study because for the most part it would be deemed unethical. You can't force humans to eat the exact same thing for 20-40 years completely controlled.
 

Tarmander

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I finger prick. I do self-monitoring occasionally with a 5hr OGTT, doing it myself. Since I have done it once before through a lab, and have learned to understand the OGTT curve, I have gone from a sickly 2x flu/year individual to having no fever/flu 20 years running. And Ray Peat's criticism of HbA1c is well stated. What about you?
dexcom
 

yerrag

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Interesting. Will you feature it in your podcast?

I suppose you can dispense with using HbA1c, right? Since you have very fine data points of blood sugar to work with.
 

Tarmander

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Interesting. Will you feature it in your podcast?

I suppose you can dispense with using HbA1c, right? Since you have very fine data points of blood sugar to work with.
a1c still has its uses. If its high its not the end of the world but if its low normal its a pretty good sign you are doing okay. I have used the Dexcom for years. I don't know if most listeners would be that interested in it
 

yerrag

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a1c still has its uses. If its high its not the end of the world but if its low normal its a pretty good sign you are doing okay. I have used the Dexcom for years. I don't know if most listeners would be that interested in it

Thanks.

I'm not a fan of HbA1c, but I'm biased as blood sugar values used in a 5hr OGTT allow me to see a clear picture of my state of sugar control, and I get an idea of how to attack the problem depending on the curve behavior.

Does the DEX software (or third party software) allow you to graph a 5hr OGTT easily? If it does, I hope you are using that feature.
 

Korven

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I think translocation of endotoxin is probably a big reason for this. It will elicit a immune response and cause your LDL to spike. The real problem is the lipopolysaccharides, but fat acts as a carrier for these inflammatory substances. MCTs are a TLR4 antagonist, so they will actually prevent this. You need good intestinal health to withstand high fat diets, and most people don't have a good microbiome in the western world today.

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, user @CLASH has written several posts on how saturated fat helps to sterilize the small intestine and detox endotoxin through lipid rafts. It might lead to a transient increase in blood LPS but doesn't seem to raise inflammatory markers. This mechanism seems to be very beneficial if you look at the results carnivore people get with autoimmune disease and weight loss, and my personal experience is that saturated fat is super helpful for managing endotoxin/serotonin symptoms. Eating low fat starch, grains and potatoes on the other hand messes me up big time and I get serious systemic inflammation.
 

Vinny

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my personal experience is that saturated fat is super helpful for managing endotoxin/serotonin symptoms.
My personal experience is exactly opposite, but I hope I'll know for sure soon and add it to this thread.
I mean that for the last several days I have been eating high sat fat diet (tallow, butter) and gained about 5 (!) pounds of adipose tissue, and also the upper left abdomen pain is back again....
Will switch back to no sat fat and I suspect the gains will go off, but let's see...
 
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Korven

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My personal experience is exactly opposite, but I hope I'll know for sure soon and add it to this thread.
I mean that for the last several days I have been eating high sat fat diet (tallow, butter) and gained about 5 (!) pounds of adipose tissue, and also the upper left abdomen pain is back again....
Will switch back to no sat fat and I suspect the gains will go off, but let's see...

Still doing carnivore ? Added fats such as tallow, butter, coconut oil are very calorically dense so perhaps it's a calories in/calories out issue. Also I know some people just don't do well with refined fats regardless of the extra calories. What happens with your body composition when you get your calories from mainly fatty beef and skip the added fats?

Also to clarify, I'm not saying everyone should go crazy with saturated fat. Experiment and go by results, if low SFA works then do that. Keep us updated on how it goes @Vinny !
 

Geronimo

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So this nuance guy is saying human metabolism is designed to run optimally on fats that humans never consumed in any meaningful amounts until the 1940s? Is this really what I'm hearing? Next, we should expect a lion's metabolism to run efficiently on twinkies lol
 
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Nuancé

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I read your posts don't worry. :)

I would like to know if someone has studies on whole fish, whole nuts. Saturated fat aren't inherently bad, it wasn't my message, but when we isolated them they tend to become terrible for health.
In contrast, studies have shown that the same amount of saturated fat BUT from cheese, milk, yogurt... don't act like butter.

In any case, what we can say is that monounsaturated fat seems to reconciles everybody haha. I think I've never seen studies who highlights dangers of olive/olive oil, avocados, hazelnuts, macadamia...
 
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Nuancé

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An other disturbing point about saturated fats is also Mary Enig. She was a nutritionnist who advocates for dietary cholesterol and SFA cholesterol consumption, she is the founder of the famous Weston A Price Foundation (WAPF)...
I enjoy Weston Price's work but the WAPF has strange recommandations sometimes.

But she's dead at 83 years... but from a stroke. Not really a good publicity haha, when all the SFA opposite mentions the "dangers" of SFA for cardiovascular health and stroke risk in particular.
In contrast, some vegan doctors like Wareham or Esselstyn looks really good at old age and never experienced heart disease.
 

Maljam

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I think translocation of endotoxin is probably a big reason for this. It will elicit a immune response and cause your LDL to spike. The real problem is the lipopolysaccharides, but fat acts as a carrier for these inflammatory substances. MCTs are a TLR4 antagonist, so they will actually prevent this. You need good intestinal health to withstand high fat diets, and most people don't have a good microbiome in the western world today.

You can probably guess where this is going, as this is now the fourth time I have asked you to provide a source for this nonsense you keep spouting. I don't think members should be able to repeat information that is false and never provide sources for what they say. Every member should be able to provide sources for things they say upon request. This is peoples health at stake, they rely on factual information.

1. Please provide a source that endotoxin moved by saturated fat in the chylomicrons has a negative effect on health. (Peat and others have already said it isn't a negative.)

2. Why do so many people with intestinal issues recover with higher fat, lower carb diets?
 

Maljam

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My personal experience is exactly opposite, but I hope I'll know for sure soon and add it to this thread.
I mean that for the last several days I have been eating high sat fat diet (tallow, butter) and gained about 5 (!) pounds of adipose tissue, and also the upper left abdomen pain is back again....
Will switch back to no sat fat and I suspect the gains will go off, but let's see...

You are tracking calories and weighing your fat sources right?
 

Maljam

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I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, user @CLASH has written several posts on how saturated fat helps to sterilize the small intestine and detox endotoxin through lipid rafts. It might lead to a transient increase in blood LPS but doesn't seem to raise inflammatory markers. This mechanism seems to be very beneficial if you look at the results carnivore people get with autoimmune disease and weight loss, and my personal experience is that saturated fat is super helpful for managing endotoxin/serotonin symptoms. Eating low fat starch, grains and potatoes on the other hand messes me up big time and I get serious systemic inflammation.

This. :handpointup:

Jessie keeps repeating the saturated fat endotoxin myth even though it was debunked about 4 years ago on this forum.
 

boris

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@Nuancé She has books advocating grains, nuts, seeds, legumes https://www.amazon.com/Nourishing-Traditions-Challenges-Politically-Dictocrats/dp/0967089735.

Big Fat Controversy
Enig: "When I’m cooking, I often make a mixture of coconut oil, olive oil and sesame oil. The reason for that is the coconut oil has virus-fighting properties, the sesame oil has an antioxidant in it, and the olive oil (or peanut or sunflower oil) adds a flavor complexity."

http://www.cocoscience.com/pdf/mary_enig_interview.pdf
Enig: "...we do know that people need to take in at least 2-3% of their fat as the omega-6 fatty acids and at least 1-1.5% of their fat as omega-3 fatty acids. [...] People on low-fat diets historically consumed adequate amounts of essential fatty acids from foods such as grains, vegetables and nuts; [...] The polyunsaturated fatty acids didn't have to be hydrogenated to protect their integrity and keep them from going rancid because they were consumed in a protected whole-food state."



To be fair, she advises low amounts. But she has the assumption that PUFAs are safe in whole foods form, this is where Peat makes more sense. Why would these unstable fats act differently after they have been incorporated into your tissues? And I find it hard to imagine she stayed in these low thresholds if she cooked in PUFA oils.

She was also a fan of lard and goose fat which has 10% PUFA. All these sources add up.
 
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