Saturated Fat TERRIBLE For Liver Health & Diabetes. Compared To PUFA

[Maljam]

You asked for a source (hence why should anybody else keep posting about it), he didn't provide one. That should be that and there isn't a need for 20 posts about it after that, because of the reasons I outlined. And the readers just have to decide if that information is useful for them or not. At that point any more inquiry just derails the current thread and isn't productive.

What if they keep posting the information? I asked once per time I saw it for a source, no double postings.

The 20 posts going on and on and derailing the original topic were from people like yourself.

 

[Maljam]

Yah, I was misunderstanding. Sorry about that!

It seems we agree lol.

I am glad we are in agreement after so much posting.

 

[Vegancrossfit]

I don’t know about PUFAs being good in their whole form or not, I think fatty fish is healthy for other reasons (salmon has asthaxanthin for instance, b12 sky high etc.)

But it sure makes sense that saturated fat is very hard to break down and isn’t a readily available source of energy. I think a healthy body craves sugar, from whole food of course. We’re so far off from what’s a healthy metabolism that looking forward to easily available energy is perceived as negative.

 

[Jessie]

It would be nice if they did, but I don't think they should have to.

Thing is, I did actually provide some research on this very issue on a different thread. It was on another PUFA v SFA thread. It was a paper on translocation, comparing lard to fish oil. The lard group was consistently worse. Now, there's several things that I thought could've been done better. One, it was a animal study. And two, something like butter or tallow would better represent saturated fat than lard.

However this individual didn't bring up any of these concerns, which I would've happily discussed with them about. In fact, they chose to simply ignore my citation altogether, and instead nag me about posting "proof." Furthermore, I'm not really anti-saturated fat. I just think it's important to have a logical discussion about how fatty acids behave in the organism, and whether it makes sense to be eating large amounts of them (and by them, I mean SFAs, we all know PUFA is bad).

Saturated fat, imo, is a essential fatty acid. Meaning if we don't eat it directly, we will convert other energy substrates into it. Given this, it would make more sense to consume the majority of our calories from carbohydrate, and avoid any possible digestive problems when consuming SFAs directly. I also think it's kind of misleading to paint Peat as a big supporter of saturated fat.

Everything I've ever read or heard on Ray, he's always suggesting to eat saturated fat in the context of a lower fat approach. He thinks a small amount of fat is needed to stimulate digestion, that's it. I've even heard him say before literally just a teaspoon of coconut oil with your meals is enough.

 

[Maljam]

Thing is, I did actually provide some research on this very issue on a different thread. It was on another PUFA v SFA thread. It was a paper on translocation, comparing lard to fish oil. The lard group was consistently worse. Now, there's several things that I thought could've been done better. One, it was a animal study. And two, something like butter or tallow would better represent saturated fat than lard.

However this individual didn't bring up any of these concerns, which I would've happily discussed with them about. In fact, they chose to simply ignore my citation altogether, and instead nag me about posting "proof." Furthermore, I'm not really anti-saturated fat. I just think it's important to have a logical discussion about how fatty acids behave in the organism, and whether it makes sense to be eating large amounts of them (and by them, I mean SFAs, we all know PUFA is bad).

Saturated fat, imo, is a essential fatty acid. Meaning if we don't eat it directly, we will convert other energy substrates into it. Given this, it would make more sense to consume the majority of our calories from carbohydrate, and avoid any possible digestive problems when consuming SFAs directly. I also think it's kind of misleading to paint Peat as a big supporter of saturated fat.

Everything I've ever read or heard on Ray, he's always suggesting to eat saturated fat in the context of a lower fat approach. He thinks a small amount of fat is needed to stimulate digestion, that's it. I've even heard him say before literally just a teaspoon of coconut oil with your meals is enough.

Hello Jessie, long time no speak. I'm struggling to find the lard vs fish oil post like you mentioned, when I log into the forum every time I have at least 5-10 notifications so it is possible I missed it, but regardless, I think the study you posted isnt relevant to what we are saying.

My issue with this study I cant remember seeing is that nobody is disputing fat causes translocation, but that you present it as a negative, while Peat and others have specifically said this action is neutralising of the endotoxin. This seems to be the issue you keep getting bogged down on. You continue to ignore me however so we can never discuss this, as much as I would like to.

Also as of around week ago, Peat was happy for people to eat up to 30 percent of their calories from fat, so I think it is misrepresenting him to suggest he only talks about a low fat diet. Unless have heard something from him even more recent than that.

 

[Maljam]

For example @Jessie this article is pretty much what I have been trying to say to you for days.

Hyperlipid: Endotoxin Absorption on a High Fat Diet

"What galls Hansen appears to be complete lack of any sort of an inflammatory response to this lethal chylomicron/endotoxin cocktail coursing through the bloodstream of the lipophiles (assuming they enjoyed being paid to drink the cream)."

"Even in the deepest cesspits of nutritional research no one really expects a half a pint of cream to produce lethal endotoxaemia within a few hours of drinking it. In their response to the comment, which implies that they can’t measure endotoxin correctly, Harte are polite and point out that there is a world of difference between an iv bolus of neat endotoxin (not recommended) and the absorption of endotoxin from the gut in the presence of chylomicrons."

"I wrote a post, several years ago, where Greve’s group demonstrated a marked protective effect of a gastric lipid gavage against the effects of haemorrhagic shock, the effects of which are largely related to loss of gut wall integrity, bacterial translocation and endotoxin uptake.

In the high fat world, endotoxin uptake is not what it seems. Lipoproteins neutralise and carry endotoxin. If you need systemic inflammation to maintain research funding you need to be a little more McDevious."

All this would suggest we shouldn't be trying to survive on as little fat as possible IMO.

 

[Vegancrossfit]

Of course Hyperlipid will twist whatever data to suit their narrative.

 

[tankasnowgod]

"Anti Peat" i'm "anti nobody"

I didn't say you were Anti-Peat. I said this thread you created is Anti-Peat.

Anyway, can we talk about these studies, intervention studies on humans, where consumption of nuts is beneficial even for LIPID PEROXIDATION, despite the facts that they are really rich in O6 fatty acids haha.
They decrease MDA in every studies, every species !

All these studies you are posting on consumption of nuts are not relevant to the original point of the thread. And they certainly don't do in in "every species." Even Termites? Whales? Lobsters?

 

[Maljam]

Of course Hyperlipid will twist whatever data to suit their narrative.

How do you mean? His thoughts on fats protection against endotoxin are the same as Peats, what is he twisting?

Any elaboration on the actual studies and figures rather than your opinion of the blog author?

 

[Recoen]

I think you are misunderstanding my wording but I do see why you thought I meant banned. I wasn't talking about rules or anything like that.

By not allowed I meant more people should be calling them out on the source. I was surprised more people were just "passing by" the posts and as a collective we should be asking for the source. From from start of this all I have said is people should be questioning and asking for sources of information that are new "saturated fat increases serotonin."

Other than posting things which are illegal or extreme abuse I dont think anyone should be banned for anything.

From my short time here, I think most agree with RP and have probably discussed this many times, so they don’t bother.

I do agree if there’s new research that directly challenges something it should be posted. And I think the person should send it to RP too. Science has become too dogmatic, all it takes is one repeatable study to prove an accepted “law” (theory) wrong.

 

[Giraffe]

No I didn't, really. But again, I saw all these controversies on epidemiological studies as I said, it's just another among a lot. Or on vegetable oils (corn, soybean, sunflower, etc), not on whole foods that I mention. That's why I think it's good to focus on intervention studies made on whole foods, rather than associations or focus on oil, whether it is saturated fat oil or polyunsaturated fat.

Your original question was, "where are the studies who incriminates PUFA or vegetable oil?" and I directed you to an intervention study in men.

 

[haidut]

Your original question was, "where are the studies who incriminates PUFA or vegetable oil?" and I directed you to an intervention study in men.

In addition to the links you sent him/her, here are some other recent studies, some of them in animals but the last one is in humans. Namely, a clinical trial in India probably meant to replicate the findings from the Indian non-controlled studies in 1960s and 1970s of treating alcoholic liver disease with saturated fats.
Diet, in addition to alcohol consumption, may play important role in liver problems
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Effect of Saturated Fat (Desi Ghee) on Gut-Liver Axis in Alcoholic Hepatitis - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov

 

[Vegancrossfit]

How do you mean? His thoughts on fats protection against endotoxin are the same as Peats, what is he twisting?

Any elaboration on the actual studies and figures rather than your opinion of the blog author?

What I meant is Hyperlipid will never ever pull up studies saying massive consumption of saturated fat is detrimental to health whatsoever. I don’t need to elaborate on studies for you, it’s fine to read a high fat blogger but just look at what low (saturated) fat scientists say. There’s no absolute truth in science, you do your own N=1 experiment and go with that data.

 

[Maljam]

What I meant is Hyperlipid will never ever pull up studies saying massive consumption of saturated fat is detrimental to health whatsoever. I don’t need to elaborate on studies for you, it’s fine to read a high fat blogger but just look at what low (saturated) fat scientists say. There’s no absolute truth in science, you do your own N=1 experiment and go with that data.

Do you not think that is true of all humans? Peat never includes anti sugar studies etc, doesnt mean any are inherently wrong or right just because of an author's leanings.

What are you so defensive about?

What is everyones problems with "I dont need to do that for you" any time anyone asks them to expand their opinion like they are toddlers.

I think all science should stop completely, all advancements of human kind, every scientist should unite and say "why should I do that?"

Imagine a radio show where someone rings in and asks Peats opinion and he said "I don't need to do anything for you."

Why should I look at low fat scientists? You just refused to look at a high fat scientists argument solely because he is a fan of high fat. What is stopping me from repeating your argument back to you and then both of us end up dumb and not learning anything?

 

[schultz]

I am glad we are in agreement after so much posting.

Haha, yah well it can be difficult to communicate online sometimes. I guess that's what the emojis are for

 

[Nuancé]

I didn't say you were Anti-Peat. I said this thread you created is Anti-Peat.



All these studies you are posting on consumption of nuts are not relevant to the original point of the thread. And they certainly don't do in in "every species." Even Termites? Whales? Lobsters?

Almost every species of NUTS I mean haha. I don't care of studies on animals, I'm not a spider or a cow.

They are relevant for me, saturated fat and polyunsaturated fats are both large thematics.

 

[Nuancé]

In addition to the links you sent him/her, here are some other recent studies, some of them in animals but the last one is in humans. Namely, a clinical trial in India probably meant to replicate the findings from the Indian non-controlled studies in 1960s and 1970s of treating alcoholic liver disease with saturated fats.
Diet, in addition to alcohol consumption, may play important role in liver problems
Error - Cookies Turned Off
Error - Cookies Turned Off
Effect of Saturated Fat (Desi Ghee) on Gut-Liver Axis in Alcoholic Hepatitis - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov

Interesting, I keep that in mind... but nobody here is alcoholic I hope haha, I was talking more about "common people". :)

And ghee is really controversial, ghee can be extremely rich in oxidized cholesterol compared to butter, which is terrible for cardiovascular health :

Cholesterol oxides in Indian ghee: possible cause of unexplained high risk of atherosclerosis in Indian immigrant populations - PubMed

"
Abstract
Two populations of immigrants to London and to the West Indies from the Indian subcontinent have higher than expected morbidity and mortality from atherosclerosis but do not show the commonly accepted major risk factors. This study investigated the hypothesis that ghee, a clarified butter product prized in Indian cooking, contains cholesterol oxides and could therefore be an important source of dietary exposure to cholesterol oxides and an explanation for the high atherosclerosis risk. Substantial amounts of cholesterol oxides were found in ghee (12.3% of sterols), but not in fresh butter, by thin-layer and high-performance-liquid chromatography. Dietary exposure to cholesterol oxides from ghee may offer a logical explanation for the high frequency of atherosclerotic complications in these Indian populations.

"

 

[schultz]

Interesting, I keep that in mind... but nobody here is alcoholic I hope haha, I was talking more about "common people". :)

And ghee is really controversial, ghee can be extremely rich in oxidized cholesterol compared to butter, which is terrible for cardiovascular health :

Cholesterol oxides in Indian ghee: possible cause of unexplained high risk of atherosclerosis in Indian immigrant populations - PubMed

"
Abstract
Two populations of immigrants to London and to the West Indies from the Indian subcontinent have higher than expected morbidity and mortality from atherosclerosis but do not show the commonly accepted major risk factors. This study investigated the hypothesis that ghee, a clarified butter product prized in Indian cooking, contains cholesterol oxides and could therefore be an important source of dietary exposure to cholesterol oxides and an explanation for the high atherosclerosis risk. Substantial amounts of cholesterol oxides were found in ghee (12.3% of sterols), but not in fresh butter, by thin-layer and high-performance-liquid chromatography. Dietary exposure to cholesterol oxides from ghee may offer a logical explanation for the high frequency of atherosclerotic complications in these Indian populations.

"

I wonder if it is the vegetable ghee rather than actual ghee? I wonder how many immigrants buy the vegetable ghee versus actual ghee?

 

[tankasnowgod]

Interesting, I keep that in mind... but nobody here is alcoholic I hope haha, I was talking more about "common people". :)

You've gone beyond "Nuance" here, and you are just full on trolling at this point. If Saturated Fat can repair and restore the function of seriously damaged livers of alcoholics, why wouldn't it be beneficial for "common people" as well? Especially since NAFLD is fairly "common" in and of itself.

Besides that, there are now several animal studies, and at least two human studies (one of those studies lasting several years), posted to this thread refuting the title of this thread, and answering your initial question. I guess you can keep on shifting the goal post to "yes, okay, but what about Eskimos living in Peru that only consume 4 glasses of gin each week, where are the studies on them?" if you really want to.

 

[Lollipop2]

You've gone beyond "Nuance" here, and you are just full on trolling at this point. If Saturated Fat can repair and restore the function of seriously damaged livers of alcoholics, why wouldn't it be beneficial for "common people" as well? Especially since NAFLD is fairly "common" in and of itself.

I was thinking this as well...seems like he is convinced on his stance and just wants to argue: totally shifting the goal post here and there as any new evidence is presented to him. I think it is time to abandon this thread. It is a waste of time.