Saturated Fat Allows Bacteria To Translocate

[CLASH]

@Captain_Coconut what else where you eating? Dairy and granulated sugar?

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Keto works because it is low starch. Starch and fat don’t mix. RP is right to tell people to avoid starch, as most RP followers eat a lot of fat.

You can semi sterilize your gut with high fat and low starch and therefore end up without low grade endotoxemia. But does this approach encourage bacteria to translocate... I think so. I hate how I feel on keto after having done it for many years, I also think it encourages bacteria to translocate as they are no longer being fed.

Substituting juice for carbs is better than going keto, but it is a similar problem for me, I could never get my temp up past 98 this way, I need starch. Keto would give me 98.6 but then my adrenals went to ***t.

There is a middle ground between fat and starch in the diet that is just terrible for endotoxin. The extremes, high fat low starch, and low fat high starch are superior to the middle ground. I picked the low fat high starch side, deal with it.

My oral temp is 99.3 at the moment, all I have consumed today is some grape juice and some rice, approx 400 calories for breakfast. I could never achieve this before starch, juice and fat and protein without starch left me lethargic no matter how many months I pushed it and produced only weight gain. Now the pounds are shedding fast with basically no effort, just simply going cold turkey from my fatty foods addiction. I like how fatty foods taste too, that doesn’t mean they are good. Kinda like how I like to drink alcohol, still doesn’t mean it is good.

Edit: corrected typo in oral temp.

 

[CLASH]

@Makrosky I’m with you on most of what you said.
I just dont see which PUFA is neutral or possibly beneficial. I also think that framing saturated fat as something to be avoided is questionable and possibly detrimental to many people on the forum. I’m cool with discussing downsides but to call it negative is questionable in my opinion. In the context provided by @Captain_Coconut the only thing left to eat is carbs and protein.

 

[schultz]

You would think it's not so hard to find a saturated fat that is actually high in saturated fat

"high saturated fat (60%kcal from fat, of which 34% was saturated fatty acids)"​

I haven't read the rest of the thread, but this is something that really bugs with me with researchers.

Why even bother with the study?!

Tallow: 50% SFA, 4% PUFA
PKO: 81.5% SFA, 1.6% PUFA
CO: 82.5% SFA, 1.7% PUFA
Butter: 59.7% SFA, 4.2% PUFA

Just pick one of these!

The company "Researchdiets" ( Home Page- Research Diets, Inc. - Research Diets, Inc. ) used to have a blog post talking about lard, but I can't seem to find it any longer on their site. The link I had no longer leads to anything. Anyway, I have a snippet from the article. It said this...(bolds are mine)

"When customers have asked about the fatty acid profile of our DIO series diets, we previously used fatty acid data from the USDA Nutrient Database to calculate the fatty acid profile of diets containing lard. While we believed these data to be accurate to a degree, lard is from an animal source and since we know that what the pigs are fed can potentially affect the composition of their fat, it is to be expected that there will be some variability in the lard."

"In November, we had a batch of our lard assayed for fatty acids. Interestingly, some of the fatty acid data differed from what is in the USDA Nutrient
Database. Specifically, we found that the concentration of polyunsatured fatty acids was higher and that of monounsatured fatty acids was lower, relative to the historical USDA Nutrient Database data."


PUFA levels were as high as 29%! That's higher than canola oil. The USDA lists lard as having 11% PUFA and 39% saturated fat.

*queue facepalms*

Here is a quote from a study demonstrating the confusion this causes people...

Soybean Oil Is More Obesogenic and Diabetogenic than Coconut Oil and Fructose in Mouse: Potential Role for the Liver
Soybean oil is high in PUFAs whereas most experimental animal studies employ diets high in saturated fats, typically lard.

Here is another one...

Differential effects of high-fish oil and high-lard diets on cells and cytokines involved in the inflammatory process in rat insulin-sensitive tiss... - PubMed - NCBI
The replacement of lard (saturated fatty acids) with fish oil (ω-3 fatty acids) in chronic high-fat feeding attenuated the development of systemic and tissue inflammation.


I think the researchers just purchase feed pellets from companies that produce food for researchers. If they order the "saturated fat" feed, they might get a pellet with lard in it and possibly a mix of other fats. I guess there are assumptions all around. The feed should be tested before the research takes place.

 

[CLASH]

@Alpha
Choosing insividual fats as opposed to specific foods would be less helpful to the context overall. The use of PUFA vs. SAFA is somewhat of a short hand for choosing between low PUFA fats such as butter, beef tallow, coconut oil, cocoa butter vs. mostly everything else.

 

[CLASH]

@Captain_Coconut

Keto works because it is low starch. Starch and fat don’t mix. RP is right to tell people to avoid starch, as most RP followers eat a lot of fat.

You can semi sterilize your gut with high fat and low starch and therefore end up without low grade endotoxemia. I hate how I feel on keto after having done it for many years, I also think it encourages bacteria to translocate as they are no longer being fed.

Substituting juice for carbs is better than going keto, but it is a similar problem for me, I could never get my temp up past 98 this way, I need starch. Keto would give me 98.6 but then my adrenals went to ***t.

There is a middle ground between fat and starch in the diet that is just terrible for endotoxin. The extremes, high fat low starch, and low fat high starch are superior to the middle ground. I picked the low fat high starch side, deal with it.

My oral temp is 98.3 at the moment, all I have consumed today is some grape juice and some rice, approx 400 calories for breakfast. I could never achieve this before starch, juice and fat and protein without starch left me lethargic no matter how many months I pushed it and produced only weight gain. Now the pounds are shedding fast with basically no effort, just simply going cold turkey from my fatty foods addiction. I like how fatty foods taste too, that doesn’t mean they are good. Kinda like how I like to drink alcohol, still doesn’t mean it is good.

Ray Peat specfically recommends eating starch with fat...

Most fats stay with the small intestine, minimal reach the colon. The colon is never even semi-sterile, neither is the small intestine, even in the presence of fats and bile. Populations of bacteria are simply reduced, as are endotoxin by the starch and bile in the small intestine.
Starch isnt the only food that encourages bacterial growth. Almost all plant foods do. Even protein sources do.

Thats your opinion at best. Its not personal man, I don’t want to sway your mind either way and I dont care what you eat beyond trying to explain the poor response in a broader context. I want to balance the one sided perspective you bring so people dont go down the carb and protein only road and feel stuck while continuing to not feel well.

What were you eating when you ate your 30% coconut oil diet and gained all your weight?

 

[CLASH]

@schultz
The results from most of these studies technically read “We found that feeding X organism n-3 fatty acids was less worse than feeding X organism n-6 fatty acids, therefore saturated fatty acids cause disease”.

 

[Broken man]

But its true that saturated fat will boost immune System so people will have flare ups. Eating pufas is just ignoring the problem. @Vinero@Captain_Coconut

 

[schultz]

@schultz
The results from most of these studies technically read “We found that feeding X organism n-3 fatty acids was less worse than feeding X organism n-6 fatty acids, therefore saturated fatty acids cause disease”.

lol, hilarious

 

[olive]

The solution to this dilemma is avoiding eating fats with carbs (ala randle cycle).

This way you get the benefits of SAFA and the necessary dietary fats for hormonal production without the endotoxin issues. FFA are also kept low.

I eat carbs throughout the morning, fast for at least four hours to allow digestion then eat fats/proteins at night.

AM - fruit, leafy greens, rice, potato, masa , etc
PM - shellfish, red meat, coconut, cocoa, olive oil, etc

 

[Constatine]

Postprandial serum endotoxin in healthy humans is modulated by dietary fat in a randomized, controlled, cross-over study
"Among the higher-fat test meals, we found that the fatty acid composition of the meal had a significant effect on postprandial outcome serum endotoxin (Table 4). In particular, the saturated fat and n-3 fat meals elicited opposite effects on postprandial serum endotoxin. A similar relationship between saturated and n-3 fats on serum endotoxin has been previously demonstrated to occur in swine [12]. However, in mice, a diet rich in saturated fat had no significant effect on postprandial endotoxin [26]. The reasons why conflicting results would be obtained from different species is not entirely clear. The comparative similarity of study design between the swine study and the present study, which yielded similar results, included the selection of coconut oil as the saturated fat treatment, and fish oil as the n-3 fat treatment. Laugerette et al. [26] recently reported dissimilar findings when using milk-fat or palm, sunflower, and rape seed oils as dietary treatments. Specifically, saturated fat-rich palm oil resulted in the lowest blood endotoxin concentration whereas rapeseed oil, low in saturated fat, resulted in the highest blood endotoxin concentration. Another reason for conflicting results is that the measurement of serum endotoxin in swine and our present study followed ingestion of a single treatment meal, compared to mice that were fed for 8-weeks on differing dietary treatments and then endotoxemia assessed. Anatomical differences between species may also contribute to the different results obtained in each species [27, 28]. For example, mouse intestinal tract physiology is less similar to human than is that of swine [29–32]."

 

[Broken man]

@Captain_Coconut You can read this study where its stated that SAT fat is protective even for alcoholics. Supplementation of Saturated Long-chain Fatty Acids Maintains Intestinal Eubiosis and Reduces Ethanol-induced Liver Injury in Mice

 

[Captain_Coconut]

You guys crack me up. Do what works for you. I’m not here to tell you SFA is evil, relax.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

@Captain_Coconut



Ray Peat specfically recommends eating starch with fat...

Most fats stay with the small intestine, minimal reach the colon. The colon is never even semi-sterile, neither is the small intestine, even in the presence of fats and bile. Populations of bacteria are simply reduced, as are endotoxin by the starch and bile in the small intestine.
Starch isnt the only food that encourages bacterial growth. Almost all plant foods do. Even protein sources do.

Thats your opinion at best. Its not personal man, I don’t want to sway your mind either way and I dont care what you eat beyond trying to explain the poor response in a broader context. I want to balance the one sided perspective you bring so people dont go down the carb and protein only road and feel stuck while continuing to not feel well.

What were you eating when you ate your 30% coconut oil diet and gained all your weight?

You really are just being antagonistic with no motive for a balanced discourse. Loaded statements, dogmatic attitude like you have me all figured out. Learn how to speak to people like humans and maybe I will bother with you.

Must be kidding me;
Ray Peat, PhD – Concerns with Starches – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

 

[Captain_Coconut]

The solution to this dilemma is avoiding eating fats with carbs (ala randle cycle).

This way you get the benefits of SAFA and the necessary dietary fats for hormonal production without the endotoxin issues. FFA are also kept low.

I eat carbs throughout the morning, fast for at least four hours to allow digestion then eat fats/proteins at night.

AM - fruit, leafy greens, rice, potato, masa , etc
PM - shellfish, red meat, coconut, cocoa, olive oil, etc

Aha a voice of reason!

 

[Captain_Coconut]

@Captain_Coconut You can read this study where its stated that SAT fat is protective even for alcoholics. Supplementation of Saturated Long-chain Fatty Acids Maintains Intestinal Eubiosis and Reduces Ethanol-induced Liver Injury in Mice

Yep, read it and many others like it before. If you are interested in why I think there is more to this subject than what some peoples’ reductionist binary logic might suppose, look at my other posts over the past couple months. I’m tired of being pushed in to repeating my case over and over for those who can’t bother to just read what I have shared, like a hundred studies and papers which corroborate my hypothesis, many human studies. I’m being trolled for simply having my own opinion and sharing some thoughts. I basically have no reason to be on this forum anymore because I finally have reached an excellent state of health... I guess I should just leave. I’m better off compiling my thoughts and sharing them with people who are not locked in to some dogmatic diet based off the works of a scientist who cherry picks his data too. Ooh but it is all about the context. Perfect way to deny any responsibility for ones thoughts. Let’s face it, the man has painted himself in to a corner and is taking you all for a ride. Have fun on your thyroid meds and antibiotics guys. Have fun breeding those superbugs too!

BYE BYE!

P.S. when the inevitable human studies come out which prove everything that I am at the moment saying is highly probable to be true (High dietary SFA diet leading to bacterial translocation leading to chronic disease). I will return here to post that study and hey maybe then you will have learned some common decency??

P.S. do yourself a huge favor and read all works by the scientist Douglas B. Kell, he knows more about this topic than anyone and is going to revolutionize health care through his research.

 

[Broken man]

Yep, read it and many others like it before. If you are interested in why I think there is more to this subject than what some peoples’ reductionist binary logic might suppose, look at my other posts over the past couple months. I’m tired of being pushed in to repeating my case over and over for those who can’t bother to just read what I have shared, like a hundred studies and papers which corroborate my hypothesis, many human studies. I’m being trolled for simply having my own opinion and sharing some thoughts. I basically have no reason to be on this forum anymore because I finally have reached an excellent state of health... I guess I should just leave. I’m better off compiling my thoughts and sharing them with people who are not locked in to some dogmatic diet based off the works of a scientist who cherry picks his data too. Ooh but it is all about the context. Perfect way to deny any responsibility for ones thoughts. Let’s face it, the man has painted himself in to a corner and is taking you all for a ride. Have fun on your thyroid meds and antibiotics guys. Have fun breeding those superbugs too!

BYE BYE!

P.S. when the inevitable human studies come out which prove everything that I am at the moment saying is highly probable to be true (High dietary SFA diet leading to bacterial translocation leading to chronic disease). I will return here to post that study and hey maybe then you will have learned some common decency??

P.S. do yourself a huge favor and read all works by the scientist Douglas B. Kell, he knows more about this topic than anyone and is going to revolutionize health care through his research.

I am not against you, I just shared what I found and to be honest I will not ever switch to sunflower oil or other oil like this. I did my research and experimentation when it comes to my goal, fat like cocoa butter or shea butter (high with stearic acid) are the type of fat I prefer when it comes to building good health, I am looking good and can even drink alot of alcohol if I want so for me its win win. Given the last changes that occured here, I will write my opinion about this even I dont like doing it because most members will feel like I attacked them. I like to see studies that you posted because that is the only way how to find the truth but I dont like when somebody is attacking others just to prove that he is right. I am not saying that you did it. If you want to change opinion of somebody, the only way how to do this is through good question but given the fact the most people here are like sheeps its hard to do. If you found something irritating, why dont you ignore it? The fact that you want to go away from this forum means that you are feeling being attacked but its not true, people are just posting their opinions but its not attack. If you want to feel better about your opinion you can go to "Poison A" thread and you will feel better because you will be writting with people who will tell you that its truth because They have same opinion just because They find something new and it helped them even They dont know why or are feeling attacked by asking good questions. This is just example of stupidity and conformity to be unable to find the truth. I am very sorry for being emotional but I tried to show some ligh in the dark.

 

[CLASH]

@Captain_Coconut
In respect of your desicion to check out I wont continue to refute you but keep in mind, despite your attacks on my character I never personally attacked you. I attacked your point of view as I took a stance on the issue that is in opposition to yours but I never attacked your character.

Also, I’m not sure what you mean by “speak to people like humans”, i’m refuting your point of view, its nothing personal. I’m not dogmatic I am refuting your position because I dont agree with you. You make statements, I refute them, then you refute my statements and eventually we come to some sort of consensus. Dogma would probably not involve a debate of points as I wouldnt even consider your point of view or read the studies you posted because I would believe my point to be the irrefutable truth. This has nothing to do with feelings or character of either you or I, atleast for me. I have had conversations with you on other places in the forum and we have agreed. I never presupposed I had all the answers but I’m not afraid to engage with someone who I disagree with and furthermore I’m not afraid to dig to find out why you came to your position based on your experience, which you continue to avoid disclosing...

I look forward to the day when you bring back that study. Keep in mind though if I still hold my current position I am still going to attempt to refute the position, especially considering my current experience. If the evidence is solid, then I’m wrong and I have to adjust my point of view, no sweat off my back, nothing personal.

 

[lvysaur]

I eat carbs throughout the morning, fast for at least four hours to allow digestion then eat fats/proteins at night.

AM - fruit, leafy greens, rice, potato, masa , etc
PM - shellfish, red meat, coconut, cocoa, olive oil, etc

So you eat two meals a day?

 

[olive]

So you eat two meals a day?

I eat for a few hours in the morning then a few hours again at night. 3-4 sit down meals and a bunch of snacking.