Saturated Fat TERRIBLE For Liver Health & Diabetes. Compared To PUFA

[Jessie]

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, user @CLASH has written several posts on how saturated fat helps to sterilize the small intestine and detox endotoxin through lipid rafts. It might lead to a transient increase in blood LPS but doesn't seem to raise inflammatory markers. This mechanism seems to be very beneficial if you look at the results carnivore people get with autoimmune disease and weight loss, and my personal experience is that saturated fat is super helpful for managing endotoxin/serotonin symptoms. Eating low fat starch, grains and potatoes on the other hand messes me up big time and I get serious systemic inflammation.

I don't think fat contributes to endotoxin buildup, it just pulls more into the serum. Carnivores tend to eat fiberless diets and probably have a sterilized gut, at least comparatively speaking to people eating a mix diet. You get yourself into real trouble when you start combining high amounts of starch/fiber with fat, as with the majority of people in the world today. Carnivores are a small demographic.

 

[B___Danny]

@Nuancé Mary Enig was a fan of PUFAs from nuts and even consumed sesame oil and sunflower oil.

I’ve noticed this attitude in the health community, the all or nothing attitude.

Vegans will say all of the world’s problems and sickness is caused by animal proteins and fats, then they stop being vegan and blame all their issues on the carbs.

Keto dieters say that carbs are the devil. They find out about Ray Peat and now blame every issue on PUFA.

This forum, especially, us full of people who think they have it all figured out (this time) They don’t admit they had the same attitude about their last diet (vegan, keto, carnivore) just one year ago. They have no problem talking in a matter of fact tone about everything. This all or nothing attitude is pathetic.

Health is a nuanced topic. Ancel Keys lived to a hundred while eating pufa. My grandparents live over 100 eating saturated fat and sugar.

How come no one has connected the dots yet? No one in the history of Earth that has lived to 100-120 has ever restricted calories in anyway whatsoever.

The lady who you mention that died at 83 was awfully thin for an 80 year old. Why don’t you take that into account? Lean Body Mass is correlated with longevity.

We are living under mass starvation in the Western world. I hear my female cousins and friends talk about how they are only supposed eat 1500 calories per day to maintain their weight. What the ****? And we wonder why there is so much infertility and mental illness.

And if anyone wants to talk about obesity, first go up to any “fat” person you know and ask to feel their fat. It is mostly composed of water, for a reason unbeknownst to me yet. Even 500 pound people don't have more than 100-120 pounds of fat (go to the butcher and ask for 50 pounds of beef fat, and tell me that a 300 pound human has that much excess adipose tissue on them).

So please, remove the all or nothing attitude and look at the bigger picture.

 

[boris]

I’ve noticed this attitude in the health community, the all or nothing attitude.

Vegans will say all of the world’s problems and sickness is caused by animal proteins and fats, then they stop being vegan and blame all their issues on the carbs.

Keto dieters say that carbs are the devil. They find out about Ray Peat and now blame every issue on PUFA.

This forum, especially, us full of people who think they have it all figured out (this time) They don’t admit they had the same attitude about their last diet (vegan, keto, carnivore) just one year ago. They have no problem talking in a matter of fact tone about everything. This all or nothing attitude is pathetic.

Health is a nuanced topic. Ancel Keys lived to a hundred while eating pufa. My grandparents live over 100 eating saturated fat and sugar.

How come no one has connected the dots yet? No one in the history of Earth that has lived to 100-120 has ever restricted calories in anyway whatsoever.

The lady who you mention that died at 83 was awfully thin for an 80 year old. Why don’t you take that into account? Lean Body Mass is correlated with longevity.

We are living under mass starvation in the Western world. I hear my female cousins and friends talk about how they are only supposed eat 1500 calories per day to maintain their weight. What the ****? And we wonder why there is so much infertility and mental illness.

And if anyone wants to talk about obesity, first go up to any “fat” person you know and ask to feel their fat. It is mostly composed of water, for a reason unbeknownst to me yet. Even 500 pound people don't have more than 100-120 pounds of fat (go to the butcher and ask for 50 pounds of beef fat, and tell me that a 300 pound human has that much excess adipose tissue on them).

So please, remove the all or nothing attitude and look at the bigger picture.

Sorry, but you got my comment all wrong. Althoug I am with Peat on PUFAs, I know people who reached well into their 90s consuming heaps of PUFA and I think mental stress plays a big role in longevity.

My comment was merely an answer to Nuance's comment connecting her death to SFAs, quote: "But she's dead at 83 years... but from a stroke. Not really a good publicity haha, when all the SFA opposite mentions the "dangers" of SFA for cardiovascular health and stroke risk in particular."

 

[Maljam]

I don't think fat contributes to endotoxin buildup, it just pulls more into the serum.

Prove that this is harmful.

(It isn't.)

Peat SPECIFICALLY says saturated fat is a defensive food and it neutralizes endotoxin.

 

[schultz]

I don't think members should be able to repeat information that is false and never provide sources for what they say. Every member should be able to provide sources for things they say upon request. This is peoples health at stake, they rely on factual information.

It's a forum. Some of the things people say is opinion or theory. Do you really think the forum rule should be that everyone needs to be able to back up everything they say with citations? We're not being graded here... It's just a place for discussion. We need to be free to hash things out.

I for one occasionally play Devil's advocate and may argue with someone even if I don't believe the thing myself. Should I be banned? It encourages discussion and learning. That's why the "anti-peat" threads are fun. They encourage people to not only consider things, but also to dig deeper.

Why would these unstable fats act differently after they have been incorporated into your tissues?

Exactly. But even more-so in the blood, which is filled with oxygen and iron and is warm. People act like once it is in the body it is completely stable forever. But autoxidation does occur in the body, and when it happens it is actually a chain reaction forming an autoxidation chain.

This is common knowledge though, so I am always perplexed when people act like PUFA is ultra stable in the body. Just look at the lowly Wikipedia article on lipid perixidation...

Lipid peroxidation - Wikipedia
"Lipid peroxidation is the oxidative degradation of lipids. It is the process in which free radicals "steal" electrons from the lipids in cell membranes, resulting in cell damage. This process proceeds by a free radical chain reaction mechanism. It most often affects polyunsaturated fatty acids, because they contain multiple double bonds in between which lie methylene bridges (-CH2-) that possess especially reactive hydrogen atoms. As with any radical reaction, the reaction consists of three major steps: initiation, propagation, and termination. The chemical products of this oxidation are known as lipid peroxides or lipid oxidation products (LOPs)."

"The end products of lipid peroxidation are reactive aldehydes, such as malondialdehyde (MDA) and 4-hydroxynonenal (HNE), the second one being known also as "second messenger of free radicals" and major bioactive marker of lipid peroxidation, due to its numerous biological activities resembling activities of reactive oxygen species."


Now, take those end products mentioned above, MDA and HNE (there are more) and plug them into PubMed. Now research all the diseases they are involved in. Or you can wait for the double blind placebo controlled gold standard study done on humans comparing over the course of a lifetime the difference between saturated fat and polyunsaturated fat where group A of humans gets 1 type of fat and group B gets the other, controlled for calorie intake and macros. But I don't think that study will ever happen.

 

[B___Danny]

Sorry, but you got my comment all wrong. Althoug I am with Peat on PUFAs, I know people who reached well into their 90s consuming heaps of PUFA and I think mental stress plays a big role in longevity.

My comment was merely an answer to Nuance's comment connecting her death to SFAs, quote: "But she's dead at 83 years... but from a stroke. Not really a good publicity haha, when all the SFA opposite mentions the "dangers" of SFA for cardiovascular health and stroke risk in particular."

Got it. This thread is confusing me.

 

[Maljam]

It's a forum. Some of the things people say is opinion or theory. Do you really think the forum rule should be that everyone needs to be able to back up everything they say with citations?

If someone talks about the mechanism of a macronutrient in relation to endotoxin moving into the bloodstream, yes I think they should back up that with a citation, it is an incredibly specific claim that couldn't be definitively concluded from someone sitting in their house. Do you not think someone should provide a source for that?

 

[Vinny]

What happens with your body composition when you get your calories from mainly fatty beef and skip the added fats?

I`m getting leaner.

Also to clarify, I'm not saying everyone should go crazy with saturated fat. Experiment and go by results, if low SFA works then do that. Keep us updated on how it goes @Vinny !

Will switch to chicken breast and some EV olive oil for the next several days and will report back.
Yes, still doing like 95% carnivore.

 

[Vinny]

You are tracking calories and weighing your fat sources right?

No, no.

 

[Maljam]

No, no.

You could simply be eating an excess of calories from fat, as it is so calorific calorifically dense compared to protein and fat, it is easy to overdo and would explain weight gain.

 

[Vinny]

So this nuance guy is saying human metabolism is designed to run optimally on fats that humans never consumed in any meaningful amounts until the 1940s? Is this really what I'm hearing? Next, we should expect a lion's metabolism to run efficiently on twinkies lol

With all due respect, I think you simplify a bit.
I was told of a dog, that eats piles of cherries..... There was a cat, eating ..... RAW POTATOES

 

[Korven]

I`m getting leaner.


Will switch to chicken breast and some EV olive oil for the next several days and will report back.
Yes, still doing like 95% carnivore.

Sounds good!

I eat lots of fatty meat and feel better with olive oil on my veggies compared to added tallow, butter etc. Balances out MUFA:SFA balance and feels more dopaminergic. Also contains phenol oleuropein which has nice properties Oleuropein in Olive and its Pharmacological Effects

 

[Tarmander]

Thanks.

I'm not a fan of HbA1c, but I'm biased as blood sugar values used in a 5hr OGTT allow me to see a clear picture of my state of sugar control, and I get an idea of how to attack the problem depending on the curve behavior.

Does the DEX software (or third party software) allow you to graph a 5hr OGTT easily? If it does, I hope you are using that feature.

yeah there are a lot of fancy programs out there that you can feed data into and do cool things with. I have tried out a couple and they give interesting data like estimated A1C and the like

 

[yerrag]

yeah there are a lot of fancy programs out there that you can feed data into and do cool things with. I have tried out a couple and they give interesting data like estimated A1C and the like

Here are a few OGTT's of mine-

This was me when I was sickly, flu at least once/year, often with allergic rhinitis:

On the above graph, the y-axis is blood glucose. The black curves are the lower and upper boundaries of a good OGGT curve. The blue curve is my curve. I have about 6 data pints from 0 hour to 5 hours. The curve was smoothed to look nice. You can see the blue curve go past the lower black boundary. I was hypoglycemic, already a warning sign. If I didn't do anything about it, this poor blood regulation often will turn into hyperglycemia in later stages. I had to do something about it.

This graph shows my blood glucose levels improving. While it's not perfect (the green curve was out of bounds in the first hour), but once it got within bounds, it didn't go out anymore. I was no longer hypoglycemic. This was 2002, after I had dome a few things to improve myself - 3 months of thrice weekly chiropractic sessions, as well as removing all 11 of my mercury amalgams and undergoing mercury chelation after all. I had a generous health insurance policy then with the company I worked for, which helped a lot. The effect was apparent.

Too bad I wasn't able to take another snapshot when my blood sugar regulation took another leap when I had a 4yr (at least) cold turkey avoidance of PUFA. I was still eating brown rice in order to keep myself from getting hungry or sleepy between meals before I went cold turkey. After that, I was back to eating white rice with no negative consequences. To be certain, I would take 1 teaspoon of sugar to see if it would cause my blood sugar to drop. It didn't drop, which meant that the sugar I took was being absorbed well by the body, and my blood sugar wasn't going up, as when that happens, insulin would be secreted and that would make my liver convert the sugar to fat too quickly, that my blood sugar would end up being low.

But I took systemic enzymes to lyse my arterial plaque. My already high blood pressure went up, and I also felt my blood sugar regulation worsen. I was feeling sleepy during the day, and I gained 20 lbs. in less than a year. Below, you can see what my OGTT would look like:

I was worse off than I was 18 years ago blood sugar-wise. But I'm fixing it, and I may have already fixed it, as my waist is getting smaller and I'm not feeling sleepy any longer during the day as often (and when I do, it's because I wasn't having restful sleep).

But having the graph to guide me let me find ways in figuring out why even when my blood sugar is back within bounds at the 200 min mark, why I would still feel low energy. I listened to Ray Peat talk about the effect of poor blood regulation on thyroid, and I realized it could be because when the curve went out of bounds between 100 and 200 minutes, the liver couldn't convert T4 go T3 anymore, and I was out of T3. From that point on, it would be a struggle producing energy. So I checked this hypothesis out. I took some T3 around that point, and I saw my energy come back up. This is what I mean when I say having an OGTT is better than using a 1-dimensional metric such as HbA1c. The OGTT tells a story while HbA1c doesn't.

 

[Tarmander]

Here are a few OGTT's of mine-

This was me when I was sickly, flu at least once/year, often with allergic rhinitis:

View attachment 18862

On the above graph, the y-axis is blood glucose. The black curves are the lower and upper boundaries of a good OGGT curve. The blue curve is my curve. I have about 6 data pints from 0 hour to 5 hours. The curve was smoothed to look nice. You can see the blue curve go past the lower black boundary. I was hypoglycemic, already a warning sign. If I didn't do anything about it, this poor blood regulation often will turn into hyperglycemia in later stages. I had to do something about it.



View attachment 18863

This graph shows my blood glucose levels improving. While it's not perfect (the green curve was out of bounds in the first hour), but once it got within bounds, it didn't go out anymore. I was no longer hypoglycemic. This was 2002, after I had dome a few things to improve myself - 3 months of thrice weekly chiropractic sessions, as well as removing all 11 of my mercury amalgams and undergoing mercury chelation after all. I had a generous health insurance policy then with the company I worked for, which helped a lot. The effect was apparent.

Too bad I wasn't able to take another snapshot when my blood sugar regulation took another leap when I had a 4yr (at least) cold turkey avoidance of PUFA. I was still eating brown rice in order to keep myself from getting hungry or sleepy between meals before I went cold turkey. After that, I was back to eating white rice with no negative consequences. To be certain, I would take 1 teaspoon of sugar to see if it would cause my blood sugar to drop. It didn't drop, which meant that the sugar I took was being absorbed well by the body, and my blood sugar wasn't going up, as when that happens, insulin would be secreted and that would make my liver convert the sugar to fat too quickly, that my blood sugar would end up being low.

But I took systemic enzymes to lyse my arterial plaque. My already high blood pressure went up, and I also felt my blood sugar regulation worsen. I was feeling sleepy during the day, and I gained 20 lbs. in less than a year. Below, you can see what my OGTT would look like:

View attachment 18866

I was worse off than I was 18 years ago blood sugar-wise. But I'm fixing it, and I may have already fixed it, as my waist is getting smaller and I'm not feeling sleepy any longer during the day as often (and when I do, it's because I wasn't having restful sleep).

But having the graph to guide me let me find ways in figuring out why even when my blood sugar is back within bounds at the 200 min mark, why I would still feel low energy. I listened to Ray Peat talk about the effect of poor blood regulation on thyroid, and I realized it could be because when the curve went out of bounds between 100 and 200 minutes, the liver couldn't convert T4 go T3 anymore, and I was out of T3. From that point on, it would be a struggle producing energy. So I checked this hypothesis out. I took some T3 around that point, and I saw my energy come back up. This is what I mean when I say having an OGTT is better than using a 1-dimensional metric such as HbA1c. The OGTT tells a story while HbA1c doesn't.

really cool man. Love that kind of in depth work.

What did you eat to produce these curves? Just straight glucose?

 

[yerrag]

really cool man. Love that kind of in depth work.

What did you eat to produce these curves? Just straight glucose?

Thanks!

It had to be 75g of glucose. So I bought maltose from a Chinese grocery, which really very gooey. It cost me about a dollar in Manila, but it's being sold at Amazon for $16.

 

[Jessie]

It's a forum. Some of the things people say is opinion or theory. Do you really think the forum rule should be that everyone needs to be able to back up everything they say with citations? We're not being graded here... It's just a place for discussion. We need to be free to hash things out.

I for one occasionally play Devil's advocate and may argue with someone even if I don't believe the thing myself. Should I be banned? It encourages discussion and learning. That's why the "anti-peat" threads are fun. They encourage people to not only consider things, but also to dig deeper.

That person is a low carb troll. They've been nagging me for a while, I just ignore them because I consider the matter closed. I already replied to them the very first time with research corresponding to translocation with lard in comparison to fish oil.

 

[haidut]

researchers induced fatty liver (and I believe even NASH and cirrhosis) with diets of Poly Unsaturated Fat and Alcohol, and reversed these conditions simply by switching to Saturated Fat, even when the animals were still being fed alcohol.

Yep, here are some of those studies. They emphasize that the cirrhosis (which is "irreversible" according to mainstream science) was reversed DESPITE continued alcoholism. Those are animal studies but the same effects have been replicated in human studies (done in India, I believe) eating ghee and/or coconut oil.
Dietary saturated fatty acids reverse inflammatory and fibrotic changes in rat liver despite continued ethanol administration - PubMed
Dietary saturated fatty acids: A novel treatment for alcoholic liver disease - ScienceDirect

There are more recent studies confirming the above results, in case somebody complains those Nanji studies are old or not replicated.
Supplementation With (long Chain) Saturated Fats Protects Liver From Alcohol

Finally, if the critics who pop up on this forum every once in a while cared to look deeper into the mechanism they will see that it makes perfect sense for PUFA and alcohol to damage the liver - they have relatively similar effects as a surfactant/solvent and increasing lipid peroxidation.
PUFA Increases Alcohol Damage By Increasing Cell Fluidity; SFA Are Protective

It is precisely this synergistic effect of PUFA with endotoxin, iron, alcohol etc that is behind most dietary liver injuries and it is one of the reasons vitamin E is protective/therapeutic - i.e. it protects from most of the peroxidative processes PUFA/ethanol/iron/endotoxin beget. Tocopherol is a molecule with saturated isoprenoid side chain and its effects are quite similar to the effects of longer chain SFA. So, eating SFA = eating tocopherol. If one accepts that tocopherol is beneficial for the liver, as the human study below shows, then one cannot seriously argue that PUFA are beneficial - i.e. their effects are basically the opposite of each other.
Vitamin E Can Treat/cure Severe Fatty Liver Disease (NASH) In Humans

 

[haidut]

just pasting some links to studies and a few pastes is basically "you go do the work for me, dive into these studies, find the relevant parts, pick them apart and then research other studies and show me"

That is actually the M.O. of the entire political, medical, economic, educational, deep-state, etc systems. By twisting the argument in their favor based on what they call "state of the art" science (which turns out to be nothing more than assumptions and/or claims based on say a single, unreplicated study done 100 years ago) they claims their position is the currently accepted truth and then demand that YOU do the work while they sit back, relax and get to throw rocks at the shaky/vulnerable (but much more truthful) edifice you built with tremendous effort, and after finding numerous "flaws" in it they laugh condescendingly and quickly declare "victory". It is a type of "denial of service" attack borrowed from the technology sector. It is also a type of bullying now starting to be recognized as a form of psychopathy even by the corrupt/inept field of psychiatry.

Sounds familiar, @Drareg ?

 

[Maljam]

That person is a low carb troll. They've been nagging me for a while, I just ignore them because I consider the matter closed. I already replied to them the very first time with research corresponding to translocation with lard in comparison to fish oil.

Look, all I am trying to do is help you and the forum. You are repeating information that is out of date, has been debunked or you have misunderstood it.

(Also I recommend carbs around 30-35%, which isn't low carb, I'm sure you will call me a low carb troll again at some point in the future)

1. Peat and many others have said the binding of endotoxin by chylomicrons neutralises them and is a good thing. I feel like you just keep repeating the first half, but completely ignore the second half as a way of scaring people not to eat fat. The binding of endotoxin by the chylomicrons is a feature of eating fat, but you present this as a negative, which in mine, Peats and many other peoples opinions it isn't.

2. I managed to find where haidut spoke about serotonin or fat. I'm not sure why you couldn't link me it when I asked. He says "high fat diets stimulate serotonin synthesis." That is different from "saturated fat increases serotonin" which is what you are telling people. If you are concerned about this, just don't eat a high fat diet but that doesnt mean you should be afraid of fat. (I technically dont eat a high fat diet btw)

Saturated fat has a plethora of benefits, your needless scaremongering could damage people whose health could benefit from eating fat, when you have simply got it a little bit mixed up.

Some of your posts are good, honestly they are. All I'm saying is that you have got the wrong end of the stick with these two facts, and should stop promoting things which are factually wrong, as if they are right. People come on the forum with health issues and rely on people to be as factually correct as they can be, someone that is continually posting inaccurate information should be told so, and then reassess what they are saying for future. If I posted something that had been debunked I'd want someone to tell me.