Relearning How To Breathe And Increasing CO2

[Heidi]

Heidi thanks very much for this pertinent piece. Interesting because I recently had two very stubborn and painful mouth ulcers and some deep swelling in my lower right jaw. I did umpteen mouth rinses daily and took antimicrobials over the course of a couple of weeks and all is now resolved. Reading this thread has spurred me on to get back into taking little and often moments during the day to manage and adjust my breathing whenever I catch myself over breathing. Wonder too if this was not a latent infection?

Apologies if I am digressing here as I like to look at all angles and came across this article. Perhaps we underestimate really how much hyperventilating does affect our bodies one way or another.

“There is evidence that the effects of breathing pattern disorders, such as hyperventilation, result in a variety of negative psychological, biochemical, neurological and biomechanical influences and interferences, capable of modifying each of these three subsystems. Breathing pattern disorders (the extreme form of which is hyperventilation), automatically increase levels of anxiety and apprehension, which may be sufficient to alter motor control and to markedly influence balance control. Hyperventilation results in respiratory alkalosis, leading to reduced oxygenation of tissues (including the brain), smooth muscle constriction, heightened pain perception, speeding up of spinal reflexes, increased excitability of the corticospinal system, hyperirritability of motor and sensory axons, changes in serum calcium and magnesium levels, and encouragement of the development of myofascial trigger points – all or any of which, in one way or another, are capable of modifying normal motor control of skeletal musculature.”
Leon Chaitow

Breathing pattern disorders, motor control, and low back pain



Dearest Sheila
Thanks and your thoughts are always respected and appreciated. As you said, "With improved breathing comes light to dark corners in all realms."
So here's a little gem for both you and Heidi as you both keep bees.

“The another small animal with an extremely long lifespan (in captivity they have lived up to 30
years, 9 or 10 times longer than mice of the same size) has a low basal metabolic rate, but I think measurements made in laboratories might not represent their metabolic rate in their natural habitat. They live in burrows that are kept closed, so the percentage of oxygen is lower than in the outside air, and the percentage of carbon dioxide ranges from 0.2% to 5% (atmospheric CO2 is about 0.038). The temperature and humidity in their burrows can be extremely high, and to be very meaningful their metabolic rate would have to be measured when their body temperature is raised by the heat in the burrow. Besides living in a closed space with a high carbon dioxide content, mole rats have another similarity to bees. In each colony, there is only one female that reproduces, the queen, and, like a queen bee, she is the largest individual in the colony. In beehives, the workers carefully regulate the carbon dioxide concentration, which varies from about 0.2% to 6%, similar to that of the mole rat colony. A high carbon dioxide content activates the ovaries of a queen bee, increasing her fertility. Since queen bees and mole rats live in the dark, I think their high carbon dioxide compensates for the lack of light. (Both light and CO2 help to maintain oxidative metabolism and inhibit lactic acid formation.) Mole rats are believed to sleep very little. During the night, normal people tolerate more CO2, and so breathe less, especially near morning, with increased active dreaming sleep. A mole rat has never been known to develop cancer. Their serum C-reactive protein is extremely low, indicating that they are resistant to inflammation. In humans and other animals that are susceptible to cancer, one of the genes that is likely to be silenced by stress, aging, and methylation is p53, a tumor-suppressor gene.”
Ray Peat, PhD

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/co2.shtml
http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/32136/title/Underground-Supermodels/

Agree with Sheila this thread has some terrific observations and thanks to all the others as well.

Thanks Sheila and Moss. Moss those quotes were excellent! When I have more time I will read the full articles. Thank you.

Here is another Buteyko link that goes into a lot more detail about latent illnesses.
http://buteyko.ie/images/pdf/Dr_Buteykos_Book.pdf
It mentions that it is impossible to get the CP up if you have parasites. That could be my problem right there. I had a huge parasite problem that I spent 2 years aggressively cleansing. (I will spare everyone the disgusting details.) Although I am markedly improved since then, I don't think that I've completely healed it. Parasites somehow revved me and increased hyperventilation, but I'm only understanding that now in retrospect.

Just for the record, my CP has been terrible lately. Mostly back to where it was when I started. But I feel like things are progressing for me in a good way, so I'm not too concerned about the low CP. Sometimes things go back before they move forward again.

Also, I don't think that I've emphasized enough how miraculous some of my healing has been from the amount of breathing improvement that I've made thus far. Some of the improvement I haven't been able to fully trust, and have been waiting to make sure that it sustains over time. But the healing that I've had thus far has been enough to sustain me through all the difficulties.

Also, I've experimented with using warm water and baking soda with the breathslim. It feels more soothing when I do that. Maybe it's redundant in terms of CO2. I'll have to do it more to come to any conclusions about it. Hopefully, it isn't harmful in anyway. People use baking soda in nebulizers, which is where I got the idea.

 

[Heidi]

So I came across this interesting breathing information today in the form of a patent.
Patent WO2010126390A1 - Method of relief of stresses, giving up smoking and treatment of diseases with mammatrophic breathing
According to the author there is a reflex from breast feeding, where a certain placement of the tongue between the teeth, or an object placed in the mouth, will activate a reflex of reduced breathing.

He discovered it while drinking through a straw and: "The same happened when pushing the tip of the tongue between teeth. In both positions the root of the tongue rose up and decreased air passage into the lungs; a part of respiratory muscles were blocked; movements of diaphragm were limited. It gave an impression that when the tip of the tongue is kept with teeth the diaphragm is held in its position. It resulted in involuntary slowdown of breathing. Breathing becomes quiet and automatically changes over to a new algorithm of inhalation, pause, exhalation."

He also refers to the reflex of slowing the breathing by raising the eyes and looking up. Apparently this is a Buteyko technique. I found the raised eyes referred to here: http://www.buteykobreathing.org/ButeykoDiary.pdf They call it the "eyelid reflex" in that document.

Both of those reflexes have the effect of relaxing my lower abdomen and having breathing initiate from there. The breath slim has this effect for me, too. I just started working with it, but so far today the mammatrophic breathing/tongue position has helped me to settle my breathing and keep it settled. The tongue position combined with the raised eyes might especially help to settle breathing quickly during the night. Also, maybe there is some device to keep the tongue in an optimal position while sleeping?

I looked up tongue position for nursing and found this "In order for a baby to breastfeed, the tongue must be positioned properly in the mouth. The baby needs to be able to have a wide open mouth, rest his/her tongue on the floor of the mouth and be able to extend the tongue over the lower gum line. Basically, the tongue must be down and roll forward in order to latch on properly to the mother’s breast." from: Suck Training: A Tool For The Breastfed Baby

The tongue position could lead to malocclusion in children. Not sure if adults could have problems, if the tongue position is held too much over a long time. Hopefully, after awhile, the body will retain the new habit of reduced breathing, without having to maintain the tongue position.

There could be other reflexes that settle and slow breathing besides these two. I'd like to find more.

 

[moss]

It mentions that it is impossible to get the CP up if you have parasites. That could be my problem right there. I had a huge parasite problem that I spent 2 years aggressively cleansing. (I will spare everyone the disgusting details.) Although I am markedly improved since then, I don't think that I've completely healed it. Parasites somehow revved me and increased hyperventilation, but I'm only understanding that now in retrospect.

Missed that bit how interesting!

Just for the record, my CP has been terrible lately. Mostly back to where it was when I started. But I feel like things are progressing for me in a good way, so I'm not too concerned about the low CP. Sometimes things go back before they move forward again.

Bit like a see-saw, persistence will pay off and I've not doubt you will find a point of balance.

I looked up tongue position for nursing and found this "In order for a baby to breastfeed, the tongue must be positioned properly in the mouth. The baby needs to be able to have a wide open mouth, rest his/her tongue on the floor of the mouth and be able to extend the tongue over the lower gum line. Basically, the tongue must be down and roll forward in order to latch on properly to the mother’s breast." from: Suck Training: A Tool For The Breastfed Baby

The tongue position could lead to malocclusion in children. Not sure if adults could have problems, if the tongue position is held too much over a long time. Hopefully, after awhile, the body will retain the new habit of reduced breathing, without having to maintain the tongue position.

Mentioning the tongue position made me think of tongue tie which is considered a ‘defect’ in some babies who are literally tongue tied. Babies who are unable to bring their tongue forward enough to latch onto the nipple for a proper seal and can make them unsettled and difficult feeders. Pure speculation here, perhaps this is why some people can roll their tongue and some can’t? I also wonder if this could also contribute to speech impediments, swallowing defects and possibly set up some kind of impaired breathing reflex? If the frenulum doesn’t stretch out and this is picked up (often its not) doctors can perform a small procedure called a frenectomy.

The Buyteko pdf's are very helpful, thanks.
Also, I drink quite a bit of plain soda water and I feel it makes a difference and is settling.

 

[tara]

Nice thoughts and quotes all. :)

Mentioning the tongue position made me think of tongue tie which is considered a ‘defect’ in some babies who are literally tongue tied. Babies who are unable to bring their tongue forward enough to latch onto the nipple for a proper seal and can make them unsettled and difficult feeders. Pure speculation here, perhaps this is why some people can roll their tongue and some can’t? I also wonder if this could also contribute to speech impediments, swallowing defects and possibly set up some kind of impaired breathing reflex? If the frenulum doesn’t stretch out and this is picked up (often its not) doctors can perform a small procedure called a frenectomy.

Ha! Someone posted on my migraine thread about someone solving migraine issues with a frenectomy - maybe this could be the link? I can roll mine lengthwise, not width-wise, and not stick it out particularly far, but I don't think I had any trouble with breastfeeding. :)

 

[moss]

Interesting Tara and I am purely speculating, however, this thread is throwing up lots of possibilities and I do believe structural/biomechanics may also play a part here. I'm all ears and if there are manual therapists (osteos/acupuncturists..) they may be able to shed some light here as well. I have really benefited from your posts, thanks.

 

[dd99]

Mentioning the tongue position made me think of tongue tie which is considered a ‘defect’ in some babies who are literally tongue tied. Babies who are unable to bring their tongue forward enough to latch onto the nipple for a proper seal and can make them unsettled and difficult feeders. Pure speculation here, perhaps this is why some people can roll their tongue and some can’t? I also wonder if this could also contribute to speech impediments, swallowing defects and possibly set up some kind of impaired breathing reflex? If the frenulum doesn’t stretch out and this is picked up (often its not) doctors can perform a small procedure called a frenectomy.

I've posted a bit about this before. Our first child had a tongue tie, so his latch was terrible. The breastfeeding expert we went to told that until bottle feeding with formula supplanted breast feeding (due to marketing and government pressures) around the 1970s, midwives would routinely have one long fingernail they would swipe under a newborn's tongue to prevent tongue tie and enable proper breast feeding. When Governments realised that breast feeding was best in the late 90s and tried to encourage mothers to breastfeed, midwives had lost that knowledge and so many mothers gave up their child couldn't latch. The prevalence of speech impediments is a direct consequence. The expert we visited listed 10 or so famous people (in the UK) with tongue tie into adulthood.

Long story short, we did the 30 second procedure and our son breasted perfectly almost immediately afterwards for the next year.

 

[Heidi]

dd99, interesting story. That's great that the tongue tie was so easily and successfully fixed. And that so many problems were averted by a simple procedure.

Also, I drink quite a bit of plain soda water and I feel it makes a difference and is settling.

I have always really liked soda water. But I don't usually spend the money to drink it everyday. But maybe it would be good to view it as medicine, instead of a luxury.

Thanks again moss and tara for your posts.

Ha! Someone posted on my migraine thread about someone solving migraine issues with a frenectomy - maybe this could be the link? I can roll mine lengthwise, not width-wise, and not stick it out particularly far, but I don't think I had any trouble with breastfeeding.

Interesting these unusual connections between breathing, tongues, and migraines. I wasn't breastfed and didn't have an attachment to sucking my thumb or a pacifier. I can't roll my tongue width-wise or stick it out very far. My tongue has seemed very uncoordinated relative to other people's.

Sticking the tip of my tongue between my teeth is an unusual position for me. But so far it seems to be working. It is much easier and faster than willfully reducing my breathing, which takes a lot of time, effort, and focus. I have my tongue between my teeth right now as I type.

The tongue position has been the only thing that I've found so far that has helped at work. I was able to briefly settle my breathing in between things that were happening. It's nice to be able to maintain a thin thread of connection with reduced breathing, while I'm busy and preoccupied with something else.

I tried to get my husband to do this. But he didn't notice any difference and feels that just relaxing is easier. Maybe he doesn't need it. My friend with asthma tried it, but didn't notice any difference. But he isn't aware of when he's over breathing. He said that he would try it some more.

Raising my eyes and looking up, seems to give a brief, quick focus on relaxing my lower abdomen. I've been laughing at myself as I periodically stick out my tongue and look up. This is the newest whacky thing in a long line of unconventional things that I've done for my health.

 

[tara]

I now wake up most mornings with my tongue sitting fully up across the whole roof of my mouth filling the space between my teeth. Seems I've retrained this habit now, but it took more than a year.

This is the newest whacky thing in a long line of unconventional things that I've done for my health.

:)

 

[Heidi]

I now wake up most mornings with my tongue sitting fully up across the whole roof of my mouth filling the space between my teeth. Seems I've retrained this habit now, but it took more than a year.

tara, could you explain more about how this came about? Did you try to get your tongue in this position? Did you just notice it happening more and more? You've stopped taping your mouth at night. So it isn't connected to that - is that right?

 

[tara]

I can't quite remember the detail, but I think the change occurred fairly naturally - with only a little conscious attention - during the year plus that I was taping. I now tape when I get a cold - which sets me back to automatic mouth-breathing - but don't generally seem to need it otherwise. Having the tongue in place prevents mouth-breathing even if the lips open a little.

 

[Heidi]

That's interesting that mouth taping changed tongue placement for you. It's like you got a double improvement. Does that seem right? I've noticed that I have to get my tongue in a good position first, then tape my mouth. Otherwise, the tape gets pulled and is uncomfortable when I try to get my tongue in a better position. I also have noticed that I can drool a tiny bit when my tongue is slightly between my teeth. My mouth is slightly open or a bit more relaxed, even though I am not breathing through it.

 

[Heidi]

I've been trying to understand progesterone (as well as other female hormones) and its connection to hyperventilation more. My symptoms of inflammation and pain due to hyperventilation would always flare up after I ovulated. CO2 levels decrease by 25% after ovulation. Most sources say that this is somehow due to progesterone, but there are differing reasons why. I've read that PMS may be completely due to hyperventilation for some women. (Hyperventilation can be a problem in pregnancy as well.)

See the progesterone-hyperventilation connection on page 74:
Recognizing and Treating Breathing Disorders

Ray Peat has written that
"Progesterone, which increases the carbon dioxide content of the tissues, is remarkably able to inhibit the actions of most of the inflammatory and catabolic mediators, and to protect against degenerative calcification and osteoporosis. It also protects against abnormal clotting." See: Calcium and Disease: Hypertension, organ calcification, & shock, vs. respiratory energy

Ray Peat also wrote that
"The low carbon dioxide production of hypothyroidism (e.g., Lee and Levine, 1999), and the respiratory alkalosis of estrogen excess, are often overlooked. An adequate supply of calcium, and sometimes supplementation of salt and baking soda, can increase the tissue content of CO2." See: Protective CO2 and aging

A long time ago when I was in my early 20s, my periods were irregular and I often missed 2-3 months. My doctor at the time thought that it wasn't good for long term reproductive health to miss several in a row, and she prescribed progesterone for me to take to stimulate a period when I didn't have one. Either the progesterone or resulting period from it made me feel really terrible, and I refused to take progesterone after giving it a try. So I have this bad association of progesterone from back then. But now I'm at a time in my life when I should be approaching menopause, and my cycle has been completely regular for a long time. So my relationship to progesterone should be different now or will be soon.

So these are the pieces that I have so far that I'm trying to put together. I'll do more research when I have more time. Anyone else's thoughts or experiences around this, as always, are much appreciated.

 

[Heidi]

I reread this thread: Buteyko Breathing - Bud Weiss, 2008-09-15 It was very helpful to reread it. Ray Peat said:

because progesterone and carbon dioxide for example both have an energizing and calming effect on all cells, everything from the brain to secretory and hormonal tissues.

My interest was not particularly in relation to asthma, but Buteyko noticed many other effects of carbon dioxide when he was working with people treating asthma as a focus. He noticed that some of the patients recovered from other degenerative terminal diseases. Those have been where I spent most of most of my effort thinking about the role of carbon dioxide in all of the inflammatory and degenerative diseases, and how it works synergistically with progesterone and protectively against the toxic effects of estrogen and other excitatory molecules.

And it turns out that all of the degenerative diseases are centered on an excess of inflammatory processes which de-energize the cells and shift the metabolism away from the production of carbon dioxide and with a dominant tendency towards producing lactic acid in excess that can't be consumed and converted to carbon dioxide.

However, in researching progesterone on the web, there are lots of women who experience unpleasant or downright scary side effects from supplementing with progesterone.
Progesterone Excess - Symptoms, Diagnosis and Treatment
A Warning About Natural Progesterone | The BMJ
Rhythmic Living
Which led me to the connection of interstitial cystitis in women who are intolerant or allergic to progesterone.
A Survivor's Guide to Surgical Menopause: Symptoms of progesterone imbalance
Austin Interstitial Cystitis Treatment | Interstitial Cystitis Pain Symptoms

I have interstitial cystitis and my symptoms would always flare up after I ovulated. But my symptoms have been completely gone since I started changing my breathing. Also, my periods and PMS have been much better since then, too. So, all this confirms that CO2 is healing for me. The progesterone and CO2 connection is more complicated than I thought. Maybe I should just stick with the CO2 and not worry about progesterone for now.

 

[tara]

However, in researching progesterone on the web, there are lots of women who experience unpleasant or downright scary side effects from supplementing with progesterone.

Have you read Peat's articles on Progesterone Summaries, Progesterone Deceptions and the one about Tissue-bound Estrogen in Aging? I'd recommend them.

I didn't read any of the links fully, but just on an initial glance it seems to me that of the articles you linked, this one:

Progesterone Excess - Symptoms, Diagnosis and Treatment

seems to lump synthetic progestins with progesterone, synthetics with bio-identical progesterone. Peat addresses this in one of his articles.

These two:

A Warning About Natural Progesterone | The BMJ

Rhythmic Living

talk about high dose transdermal. Not Peat's usual approach.

This one:

A Survivor's Guide to Surgical Menopause: Symptoms of progesterone imbalance

makes a few good points, for instance that excess progesterone can cause too much sedation. Peat's advice for avoiding this is to apply progesterone dissolved in vit-E to the gum in small quantities - eg 10 mg at a time, and only take more after at least 10 mins or more, if needed. The gum-application gets into the system quickly, rather than sitting around in the fat stores for a long time for slow release as can reportedly occur with transdermal creams. It also says individual needs can vary a lot, and that paying attention to the effects of supplementation on symptoms is a good idea.

I speculate, but don't know, whether part of the issue with interstitial cystitis could be about cellular control of water. I think someone (Haidut?) may have pointed out that high progesterone can contribute to sodium loss under at least some conditions. I wonder if there is a link here, and whether attention to getting adequate electrolytes could mitigate this - eg experimenting with a little more salt and/or other minerals?

This last article;

Austin Interstitial Cystitis Treatment | Interstitial Cystitis Pain Symptoms

confused me. Maybe I read it wrong? I can't see where he got from the facts he reports to the conclusion that allergy to progesterone could be causal. I think he says:
- that many of the women with interstitial cystitis got it worse when they were premenstrual and/or menopausal, which as I understand it would correlate with lower progesterone levels.
- that small quantities of sublingual progesterone relieved the problem for a number of those women.
His idea that allergies can cause trouble with mucous membranes seems reasonable. But how did he get to cystitis being an allergic reaction against progesterone specifically, or progesterone excess being a part of this specific problem?

As you know, I'm no expert on any of this, just speculating based on my reading. I certainly don't recommend anyone persist with taking lots of progesterone (or anything) if it doesn't improve things for them. The whole human body is so complex, there's always more to learn. :)

I have interstitial cystitis and my symptoms would always flare up after I ovulated. But my symptoms have been completely gone since I started changing my breathing. Also, my periods and PMS have been much better since then, too. So, all this confirms that CO2 is healing for me.

Yay!

 

[moss]

So I came across this interesting breathing information today in the form of a patent.
Patent WO2010126390A1 - Method of relief of stresses, giving up smoking and treatment of diseases with mammatrophic breathing
According to the author there is a reflex from breast feeding, where a certain placement of the tongue between the teeth, or an object placed in the mouth, will activate a reflex of reduced breathing.

This is a very interesting article, thanks Heidi. It brings awareness to mammotrophic breathing and I wonder if the slow breathing and eyes raised as the author mentions is well-known in the animal world (danger above) perhaps this is something primal for us relating back to when we were breast or bottle fed. The suckling reflex is calming for the baby (if they are not tongue-tied!) and if their eyes are open they will usually be looking up towards the mother or person feeding them (reassurance, safety and bonding?) and may be why the Eyelid Reflex Practice in the Buteyko Diary is calming?

I've posted a bit about this before. Our first child had a tongue tie, so his latch was terrible. The breastfeeding expert we went to told that until bottle feeding with formula supplanted breast feeding (due to marketing and government pressures) around the 1970s, midwives would routinely have one long fingernail they would swipe under a newborn's tongue to prevent tongue tie and enable proper breast feeding. When Governments realised that breast feeding was best in the late 90s and tried to encourage mothers to breastfeed, midwives had lost that knowledge and so many mothers gave up their child couldn't latch. The prevalence of speech impediments is a direct consequence. The expert we visited listed 10 or so famous people (in the UK) with tongue tie into adulthood.

Long story short, we did the 30 second procedure and our son breasted perfectly almost immediately afterwards for the next year.

Thanks dd99, I didn't catch your earlier posts on this subject. The trend you describe in the UK I believe is/was much the same here in OZ. That is interesting there is a direct link with tongue tie and speech impediments and it would make sense, however, I did not know that till now. Glad you were able to resolve the issue for your son and wonderful to be able to bring your kids up with a Peat inspired approach. Good on you!

I can't quite remember the detail, but I think the change occurred fairly naturally - with only a little conscious attention - during the year plus that I was taping. I now tape when I get a cold - which sets me back to automatic mouth-breathing - but don't generally seem to need it otherwise. Having the tongue in place prevents mouth-breathing even if the lips open a little.

Exactly the same for me too, previously my tongue was positioned at the floor of the mouth behind the back lower teeth. Now the tip of the tongue is positioned at the roof of the mouth behind the two front teeth and feels completely natural as opposed to the bottom. This took time and consciously noticing and changing the position - maybe a year or so...

Speaking of tongue position this reminds me of a film documentary I saw a few weeks ago about Peggy Guggenheim. She had an unusual tic/reflex..... Her tongue would routinely slide in and out much like a snake. The tongue would protrude just beyond her mouth then back in quickly. Reference was made in the film about this and I wonder if it were not some kind of 'calming reflex' which presented in social situations? She came across as an extrovert, and yet I imagine like many extroverts, there is an underline shyness and she had experience much sadness in her life.

If you go to this page at Functional Performance Systems and scroll down towards the bottom to Politics and Science there is a 3-part interviews with RP on Progesterone you may find helpful.
Master List: Ray Peat, PhD Interviews – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

 

[Heidi]

Thanks again tara. You had linked to Ray Peat's progesterone articles on someone else's thread, so I read them yesterday and have been reading the estrogen related articles today.

Thanks for taking a look at the links that I posted. I was aware that some of the links were from women taking high doses. It was interesting for me to find out that some women are very sensitive to progesterone (or perhaps just supplementation to progesterone). I agree that the website that says that some women are allergic to progesterone may be going to far. What got me started on all this research is the fact that progesterone lowers CO2. Everyone does seem to agree that this is the case, even if people don't agree on what the mechanism is. In fact it is used to treat chronic obstructive lung disease where people retain too much CO2. Oral progesterone treatment in chronic obstructive lung disease: failure of voluntary hyperventilation to predict response.

I think that the drop in CO2 from progesterone is still stressful on my body. I've been wondering if my bladder inflammation is all due to a lack of CO2. I'm also wondering if much of my hormonal issues are from hyperventilation, as Chaitow suggests in his book that I linked to yesterday. I'm going to first try and get my breathing and CO2 levels to a better place. Then I will address hormonal issues and revisit progesterone supplementation.

The tongue postion/mammatrophic breathing made me aware that even though I had been doing abdominal breathing, I wasn't fully relaxing my lower abdomen. When I fully relax my lower abdomen, it makes me feel like my breath is originating from lower down and engaging my pelvic floor. Leon Chaitow says that "The pelvic floor and the respiratory diaphragm are, structurally and functionally bound together by fascial, and muscular connections. (Lee et al 2008)." He goes into great detail about the connections in this article: Breathing Pattern Disorders and Lumbopelvic pain and Dysfunction: An Update

I'm excited about this refinement in my breathing pattern. I noticed it first when I used the breathslim, but hadn't been able to incorporate it into my breathing when I wasn't using the breathslim. The tongue position has been key for me in making this change. My chronic muscular tension that I described a month or so ago, has relaxed and stayed relaxed since then. But now my lower abdomen and pelvic floor are more fully relaxing, too. I hadn't even realized that I'd been holding subtle tension there. It feels really good to have the relaxation and breathing extend there. I think that this relaxation will help female issues, too.

I speculate, but don't know, whether part of the issue with interstitial cystitis could be about cellular control of water. I think someone (Haidut?) may have pointed out that high progesterone can contribute to sodium loss under at least some conditions. I wonder if there is a link here, and whether attention to getting adequate electrolytes could mitigate this - eg experimenting with a little more salt and/or other minerals?

I have had perpetual problems with bloating. Mostly I retain a lot of water during the day and then pee most of it out at night. When my bladder was inflamed, I had to drink a lot of water to keep my urine dilute and my pain levels down. Now that I'm not in pain, I'm totally confused about how much water would be good for my body. I've been drinking excess water for such a long time that it will take awhile to form a new habit. I have also been trying to respond freely to any salt cravings. So far I haven't noticed that more salt helps, but I might be afraid to consume large quantities. I'm trying to be gradual with changes.

In many of your posts you suggest something that I've just recently started doing. It's a nice and appreciated confirmation. Makes me feel like I'm on the right track, and like there is some intuitive connection on what would be good to try. Thanks.

 

[Heidi]

This is a very interesting article, thanks Heidi. It brings awareness to mammotrophic breathing and I wonder if the slow breathing and eyes raised as the author mentions is well-known in the animal world (danger above) perhaps this is something primal for us relating back to when we were breast or bottle fed. The suckling reflex is calming for the baby (if they are not tongue-tied!) and if their eyes are open they will usually be looking up towards the mother or person feeding them (reassurance, safety and bonding?) and may be why the Eyelid Reflex Practice in the Buteyko Diary is calming?

Exactly the same for me too, previously my tongue was positioned at the floor of the mouth behind the back lower teeth. Now the tip of the tongue is positioned at the roof of the mouth behind the two front teeth and feels completely natural as opposed to the bottom. This took time and consciously noticing and changing the position - maybe a year or so...

Speaking of tongue position this reminds me of a film documentary I saw a few weeks ago about Peggy Guggenheim. She had an unusual tic/reflex..... Her tongue would routinely slide in and out much like a snake. The tongue would protrude just beyond her mouth then back in quickly. Reference was made in the film about this and I wonder if it were not some kind of 'calming reflex' which presented in social situations? She came across as an extrovert, and yet I imagine like many extroverts, there is an underline shyness and she had experience much sadness in her life.

If you go to this page at Functional Performance Systems and scroll down towards the bottom to Politics and Science there is a 3-part interviews with RP on Progesterone you may find helpful.
Master List: Ray Peat, PhD Interviews – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

That mammatrophic breathing article has been key for me as I just explained in my response to tara. Your connecting the eyes looking up to nursing makes sense to me. It's very confirming that you have had the same experience as tara, with changing your tongue position at night. I would never have thought to pay attention to and change tongue position, if it hadn't been for that article.

My husband very slightly sticks out his tongue, when he's very focused and concentrating on something. I had always thought it was just something endearing that he did, but now I see that it is helping him to relax and focus better. Also, I have known children, especially those with developmental delays, to slightly stick out their tongue for a period of time. I had thought it was just an endearing habit for them as well.

Thanks for the progesterone links.

 

[tara]

What got me started on all this research is the fact that progesterone lowers CO2. Everyone does seem to agree that this is the case, even if people don't agree on what the mechanism is.

Nope, not everyone. :)

Progesterone, which increases the carbon dioxide content of the tissues, is remarkably able to inhibit the actions of most of the inflammatory and catabolic mediators, and to protect against degenerative calcification and osteoporosis.

Calcium and Disease: Hypertension, organ calcification, & shock, vs. respiratory energy

I have been supplementing progest-e regularly for a couple of years. My experience seems more consistent with increasing CO2 than decreasing, though that's just by subjective impression.

dy. I've been drinking excess water for such a long time that it will take awhile to form a new habit.

This was the case for me too.
Peat recommends drinking to thirst, rather than some measured amount, because needs can vary so much.
I'm getting better at recognising thirst again, but it's taken me 2-3 years, and still I sometimes miss (under or over) and regret it.
I drink a fair bit of juice, but sometimes I need water too. The only reliable way for me to know if I am thirsty is to drink a mouthful of (clean) water and see if it tastes good. Or see how much water I need to add to my juice to make it taste good right now (which varies all the time).

 

[m_arch]

If I have caffeine (raises progesterone) or progestene I get a similar warm fuzzy feeling that I got when my o2 level drops to 95 or 94 on the oximeter. I also feel sedated (male)

 

[Heidi]

Nope, not everyone. :)

Calcium and Disease: Hypertension, organ calcification, & shock, vs. respiratory energy

I have been supplementing progest-e regularly for a couple of years. My experience seems more consistent with increasing CO2 than decreasing, though that's just by subjective impression.


This was the case for me too.
Peat recommends drinking to thirst, rather than some measured amount, because needs can vary so much.
I'm getting better at recognising thirst again, but it's taken me 2-3 years, and still I sometimes miss (under or over) and regret it.
I drink a fair bit of juice, but sometimes I need water too. The only reliable way for me to know if I am thirsty is to drink a mouthful of (clean) water and see if it tastes good. Or see how much water I need to add to my juice to make it taste good right now (which varies all the time).

tara, thanks for clarifying about Ray Peat and CO2. I'd seen the bit about progesterone increasing CO2 in the tissues, but I thought that I also read that Ray Peat said something about progesterone and hyperventilation. But I read so many articles at once, that I most likely misread or misinterpreted something.

This quote really clarified that Ray Peat thinks that excess estrogen causes the hyperventilation: "Q: I’m a 60 year old man, often I have a 60 minute panic attack, I feel like I’m going to die. How can I find route cause?

RP: Hyperventilation is often involved in that, and a hormone imbalance, and checking the Thyroid and probably having a blood test for all the steroids (DHEA, Pregnenolone, progesterone, and cortisol).

When progesterone is low or estrogen is high, that causes hyperventilation, and when you start hyperventilating, the loss of CO2 causes your blood cells to release serotonin, and other nerve transmitters, that cause all kinds of nervous and emotional effect." From: Health And Diet - One Radio Network 4 Dec 2013

So my limited experienced with taking progesterone in the past was really bad. It wasn't anything like the effects of CO2. I'm not sure why I responded so poorly. But Ray Peat says here: The Thyroid (East West Healing Blog Talk Radio, 2011) that women with a goiter should not take progesterone unless they fix the goiter first:

"RP: And once that happens, the estrogen can reach the point at which it starts inhibiting the thyroid gland itself. The thyroid gland, to produce the proper ratio of three parts T4 to one part of T3, it does that by breaking down the thyroglobulin, a colloidal kind of glob of protein inside the follicles of the gland. This has to be digested as needed, breaking each protein molecule down and releasing these free thyroxin and T3 hormones. And estrogen inhibits the proteolytic enzyme that releases the hormones. So, first, it slows down the liver function, but then it reaches the point where it will even block the thyroid itself. And this is where women tend to have high frequency of goiter, thyroid enlargement. They call it Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, but most often it's what they used to call a colloid goiter, where, since estrogen stimulates the stress hormones in the brain, increasing TSH, estrogen causes the pituitary to drive the thyroid harder, meanwhile it's blocking the ability of the thyroid gland to secrete it, so it tends to enlarge the thyroid, and, then they get diagnosed as having thyroiditis.

Progesterone happens to activate these proteins that allow the thyroid to secrete, so I advise women who have an enlarged thyroid not to take progesterone until they've taken care of the enlargement of the thyroid. Because progesterone will normalize the proteins so fast that sometimes they will go into a slightly hyperthyroid state for a few weeks."

I have had a goiter at least since my teens. I have Hashimoto's and tend to have problems with being hyperthyroid. I think that he said somewhere that you can heal the goiter by supplementing with thyroid, but I'm not sure where or if I'm remembering that right. When I've taken thyroid in the past it had no effect on my goiter.

I'm definitely not ready to try supplementing with progesterone right now. My body feels too unstable trying to adapt to and keep up with all the breathing changes. I could try some herbs such as vitex or wild yam. I've taken those before but I didn't notice much effect, but maybe I didn't take a high enough dose or stick with it long enough. I also was wondering about working on lowering estrogen instead of increasing progesterone. Before I changed my breathing, my health issues would flare up after I ovulated. Before the breathing changes I always had really painful periods and passed large clots. I generally would feel really good for the handful days after my period and before I ovulated. I thought that that was when estrogen was highest. And I thought that progesterone peaked a few days after ovulation, which was when my health issues were the worst.

I don't mean to derail this CO2 thread into all my hormone and thyroid issues. CO2 has been a miracle cure for me, but the progesterone connection seems much more complex.

Thanks m_arch for giving your experience with progesterone.

Thanks Tara for the tips on the water. Those were helpful suggestions. Recently, I've had some days where I forgot to drink. That never happened to me before. Before I changed my breathing, I would be in pain if I forgot to drink enough.