Breakthrough With CO2 Breathing? New Experiment

[m_arch]

Context;

Its 4pm in the afternoon and my breathing is pretty laboured. My Achilles heel (old injury that flares up now and again - usually from exercise) is aching. I sit down to do some recovery breathing and I noticed my spO2 is sitting at 99% at rest, my chest feels weird in a bad way, my heart rate is abnormally low at 49 BPM, and i'm really struggling no matter how hard I try to get this spO2 down. Its been a cold and rainy day. I manage to get it down forcefully to 97% - sometimes. Usually its sitting on 98% during the breathing exercise.
(Usually if i'm feeling peaty i.e. relaxed and warm - it sits around 96% without breathing exercises, 95% during breathing exercises, and can go as low as 94%)

---------------------------------

Its 6pm in the evening and I just receive 10 letters that have been going to the wrong address.
(Stressful - i'm not supposed to be driving and I owe the government ~$600 due to unpaid registrations. Argh.)

So I run myself a piping hot bath to relax and get out Ray's generative energy book. Its amazing, duh.
I've had a bright idea (if I say so myself) to bring my oximeter with me, so I decide to check how i'm doing physically.

Damn, in short.. My heart is beating at 90 BPM (usually ~65). I feel warm, relaxed. My spO2 is - at rest - 95%. Feeling a lot better, I decided to try some recovery breathing. Everything is emphasised and starts to make perfect sense. My spO2, when exhaling at the end of the 5 seconds sits at 95%. I pause 10 seconds, then in hale 5. At the end of the 5th second of the inhale, my spO2 hits 90%. Repeat, like absolute clockwork, for 10 minutes.

5 minutes after recovery breathing my CP had doubled, from its usual 10 seconds to 20 seconds.

I get out of the bath, dazed. I slip and gash my head open. I've now been waiting in the emergency department for the last 2 hours with a blood soaked bandage.

Okay that was a lie. The truth is, I arose out of the bath like a majestic phoenix. My Achilles heel pain is like 90% gone and I bounce around the house like MC Hammer from "u can't touch this" - a state of health most can only dream about.

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I wonder what effect this breathing + heat combo would have long-term on ones ability to build CO2 tolerance / retention?
Unfortunately I didn't have my capnometer with me so I couldn't take the ETCO2 measurement, but I plan to next time. I imagine it would be up at 7% or something - we'll see. I also plan to bring my heat lamp into the bathroom next time.

It seems this goes to promote Ray's ideas on metabolism and CO2.
Summer / tropical conditions (sun and warmth) promote CO2 and metabolism - health.
Winter / cold promote sickness.

I invite others to try this experiment and report back! Especially those with oximeters, if you can handle reduced breathing and a hot bath (wow my heart was getting a workout thumping along at 110 bpm without exercise).

Also I think this can be brought back to the basic concept of metabolism, to raise the body temperature. It seems a lot easier / less stressful to raise the temperature through things like certain foods, climate conditions, supplements, etc - than solely through breathing training, although it is definitely helpful and arguably it can be built upon and improved to no end, whereas there is perhaps a limit to ones metabolism and food intake.

 

[Ewelina]

Interesting! My CP in the Epsom salt bath was 50 seconds which is remarkable. It is always better in the evening but nonetheless it was never 50.

 

[Ahanu]

Thats the spirit. Buteyko in a hot bath. Unfortunatly i dont have a bathtub.

 

[Heidi]

Congratulations on finally finding a way to get your CP to increase! I love baths and take one most nights. In the winter they are especially healing. But I haven't ever checked CP or oximeter while in the tub. I will give it a go tonight.

 

[m_arch]

Congratulations on finally finding a way to get your CP to increase! I love baths and take one most nights. In the winter they are especially healing. But I haven't ever checked CP or oximeter while in the tub. I will give it a go tonight.

I guess it has some kind of uncoupling type effect? Or it emulates the uncoupling effect.

Interesting! My CP in the Epsom salt bath was 50 seconds which is remarkable. It is always better in the evening but nonetheless it was never 50.

Awesome!

 

[ecstatichamster]

My original buteyko coach was very enthusiastic about sauna to increase cp.

 

[Endocrinologist]

What does the acronym "CP" stand for?

 

[tara]

What does the acronym "CP" stand for?

Control Pause. Term from Buteyko Method. Roughly, comfortable breath-holding time at rest after exhale, before the spontaneous impulse to inhale.

 

[tara]

I get out of the bath, dazed. I slip and gash my head open. I've now been waiting in the emergency department for the last 2 hours with a blood soaked bandage.

Okay that was a lie.

I also plan to bring my heat lamp into the bathroom next time.

Please be careful - electricity and water don't mix well.

Also I think this can be brought back to the basic concept of metabolism, to raise the body temperature. It seems a lot easier / less stressful to raise the temperature through things like certain foods, climate conditions, supplements, etc - than solely through breathing training, although it is definitely helpful and arguably it can be built upon and improved to no end, whereas there is perhaps a limit to ones metabolism and food intake.

Makes sense to me to use a bunch of synergystic tactics.

 

[Endocrinologist]

Try a sauna then. Try the sauna at the local gym!

 

[Endocrinologist]

Control Pause. Term from Buteyko Method. Roughly, comfortable breath-holding time at rest after exhale, before the spontaneous impulse to inhale.

Thanks!

 

[Heidi]

So I didn't have good results with the control pause, but I did with the oximeter.

I used the oximeter and took my CP while in the bath for the past two nights, and also while sitting outside in the sun today. I was very exhausted both nights, so I didn't fully trust my results. But what I found was that heartrate goes up. My spO2 drops down 1 or 2 percentage points. And my CP goes down a lot, or stays about the same if it's bad to begin with. Not good for the control pause, but this was helpful knowledge. I've gradually been coming to the conclusion that things that raise my metabolism and are good for me, are also stressful.

I wrote a longer post about that here: Relearning How To Breathe And Increasing CO2

 

[m_arch]

So I didn't have good results with the control pause, but I did with the oximeter.

I used the oximeter and took my CP while in the bath for the past two nights, and also while sitting outside in the sun today. I was very exhausted both nights, so I didn't fully trust my results. But what I found was that heartrate goes up. My spO2 drops down 1 or 2 percentage points. And my CP goes down a lot, or stays about the same if it's bad to begin with. Not good for the control pause, but this was helpful knowledge. I've gradually been coming to the conclusion that things that raise my metabolism and are good for me, are also stressful.

I wrote a longer post about that here: Relearning How To Breathe And Increasing CO2

Interesting results, it's weird how some cp go up and for some go down. What have your temps been like?

Also I agree with your longer post. It probably is a bit stressful, maybe not as much as exercise though.

I guess if thyroid is prometabolic but lasts a long time, a hot bath or suna is prometabolic but spikes in a short duration similar to exercise. I guess peats ideal is pulsing longer duration things like aspirin, sugar, thyroid and caffeine throughout the day to avoid a bigger stress response

 

[Heidi]

Interesting results, it's weird how some cp go up and for some go down. What have your temps been like?

Also I agree with your longer post. It probably is a bit stressful, maybe not as much as exercise though.

I guess if thyroid is prometabolic but lasts a long time, a hot bath or suna is prometabolic but spikes in a short duration similar to exercise. I guess peats ideal is pulsing longer duration things like aspirin, sugar, thyroid and caffeine throughout the day to avoid a bigger stress response

So I wasn't exhausted during my bath last night and I did have the same results. SpO2 dropped 2 full percentage points. It's really nice to have it drop so effortlessly like that, without have to do anything to get it to drop. CP went down to my lowest of 10. I also woke up hot in the middle of the night and felt similarly. I couldn't get back to sleep because my body felt so stressed. Next time that happens I'm going to turn on the light and take some readings.

How about you? Have you tested in the bath again? Does sitting out in the warm sun also raise your CP?

We both have problems with the CP but it seems like our problems are completely different. I already started working on my stress response. I think I'll be able to relax and shift the stress some. It's actually really fascinating to be working on this level of an automatic physiological response. It feels like a really beneficial discovery. Just being aware of it might change it some. It's also fascinating to me that the oximeter gives a good reading in this situation, while my CP is simultaneously terrible.

I've checked my temp first thing in the morning for 20 years. They have always been really consistent. Awhile back I checked temps during the day for a few days. They seemed good enough, so I decided not to worry about them. But now I'm thinking it would be good to use them to track increased metabolism. So I just went out and bought a new oral thermometer (Vicks brand) that has an 8 second reading. My old thermometers needed a minute and a half. It turns out that the new thermometer says that my temperature is .5 degrees higher than the old ones. That's a big difference. So my temps are way better than I thought, if this new thermometer is more accurate.

 

[m_arch]

So I wasn't exhausted during my bath last night and I did have the same results. SpO2 dropped 2 full percentage points. It's really nice to have it drop so effortlessly like that, without have to do anything to get it to drop. CP went down to my lowest of 10. I also woke up hot in the middle of the night and felt similarly. I couldn't get back to sleep because my body felt so stressed. Next time that happens I'm going to turn on the light and take some readings.

How about you? Have you tested in the bath again? Does sitting out in the warm sun also raise your CP?

We both have problems with the CP but it seems like our problems are completely different. I already started working on my stress response. I think I'll be able to relax and shift the stress some. It's actually really fascinating to be working on this level of an automatic physiological response. It feels like a really beneficial discovery. Just being aware of it might change it some. It's also fascinating to me that the oximeter gives a good reading in this situation, while my CP is simultaneously terrible.

I've checked my temp first thing in the morning for 20 years. They have always been really consistent. Awhile back I checked temps during the day for a few days. They seemed good enough, so I decided not to worry about them. But now I'm thinking it would be good to use them to track increased metabolism. So I just went out and bought a new oral thermometer (Vicks brand) that has an 8 second reading. My old thermometers needed a minute and a half. It turns out that the new thermometer says that my temperature is .5 degrees higher than the old ones. That's a big difference. So my temps are way better than I thought, if this new thermometer is more accurate.

What are your morning temps? I ask because if they're lower than optimal that might explain why your cp drops - your body isn't uses to the high metabolic rate so your cp drops because your breathing intensifies.

Whereas I'm used to breathing faster so somehow it's beneficial To my Cp?

I slept fine but I did feel a b bit stressed the morning after. The stress thing for me is a hard nut to crack... It always seems delayed

 

[Heidi]

What are your morning temps? I ask because if they're lower than optimal that might explain why your cp drops - your body isn't uses to the high metabolic rate so your cp drops because your breathing intensifies.

I think my morning temps are good. They had always been 97.5 on the old digital thermometers that take 1.5 minutes for a reading. But they are 98.0 on the new 8 second thermometer. Are there any good threads that describe what optimal temps and pulses are and what different changes in temps and pulses mean? I've just picked up bits and pieces, but haven't found anything that it explains it all comprehensively.

Whereas I'm used to breathing faster so somehow it's beneficial To my Cp?

I'm use to and comfortable with an increased heartrate and breathing faster when exercising. I think that I'm comfortable with faster breathing in general because I've done it so much. Maybe it's the sudden increase in heartrate that is subtly stressful for me and thus lowers my CP?

I slept fine but I did feel a bit stressed the morning after. The stress thing for me is a hard nut to crack... It always seems delayed

Lots of time I don't feel the stress of something until the next day. I agree about the stress thing being difficult. It seems like it's all about learning how to adapt to a very low level of stress. It's tricky to reduce breathing consistently enough to gently raise CO2, but also not cause a big stress reaction or rebound effect. It feels good when one can find the sweet spot of slight stress that one can easily adapt to, relax into, and feel calm with, and not have it come back to bite you later. It's ruthless but good training in sustaining calm.

 

[Jakester]

I hadn't heard the term "CP" explained before, thanks. I'm just slightly familiar with the Buteyko method and will be looking into it more. As I'm sure everyone here knows, there's a YouTube of RP talking about CO2 to a classroom-sized group of Buteyko people - coaches, I assume. I did just want to mention that the whole topic of breathing seems endlessly complex to me. There are so many schools of thought and approaches. For example, Jack Willis, author of the excellent "Reichian Therapy: A Practical Guide for Home Use," endorses - in fact, pretty much insists upon - the idea of continuous breathing, i.e., no pause at at all between breaths, completely contrary to the CP thing. Oh, I wanted to mention too, Andrew Weil has a good basic CD on breath. He's been quoted any number of times saying that proper breathing is the single most important factor contributing to health (although I'm sure he would acknowledge that any number of factors are tied for second place).

 

[m_arch]

@Heidi @tara

It's been awhile co2 peoples!
I've been experimenting with diets and se upplements lately. You can find my thread in the logs section. Basically my diet is now high meat, rice and fruit juice. It's been about a month. I supplement vit a 100,000 iu, e, calcium, k2, tiny amount progesterone and gelatin.

The aim to get rid of my peat belly, increase muscle and raised steroid production.

Results ; great success. My body heals faster, sports performance improved, dandruff gone, acne gone, itchy scalp gone, dry eyes gone, tendinitis gone, more constant energy and happier. I can get more aggressive (I think testosterone is up) but I plan to funnel that into deadlifting and pullups.

Seriously seriously amazing results.


I think my metabolism has always been high, but steroids low.. So tthe energy was wasted. It seems the protective steroids prevent this, thus I feel like superman.

Today I did recovery breathing in a hot bath again, after 4 rounds I could get my spO2 to drop to 84%! Comparatively I could only get around 91%. Resting was around 96 like usual. I've never been able to push it so low!

Mind you, my scalp started to itch after this (I suspect too high metabolic activity, not enough resources) so I poured OJ on my head and it went away.

I used to get itchy scalp from sports too, but not anymore. I'm sure its the protective steroids raising my stress resilience through the roOf, which is why I suspect my body can push so Damn hard on the spO2 level now. Perhaps breathing is more of an indication of health, rather than a health promoter. Kind of like sports, prometabolic? Yes. Healthy? It depends , but perhaps good or hermetic if your body can handle the stress. Have fuel close by! It's amazing how good OJ tastes during a hot bath or a game of tennis.

I feel like I'm 15 again physically.

My only health problem remaining is digestion, the carrot salad helps but it's such a chore for me.

 

[Heidi]

Congratulations m_arch! I am very happy to hear of your great success and that you are feeling so good.

I have not been focusing directly on breathing, but have been very focused on the sensory experience of emotions and tiredness. I have been feeling very settled almost all the time from focusing on sensory experience in this way. I recently checked SpO2 and had my best reading ever. I checked again this morning and I think that my baseline might have dropped an entire degree. My pulse is the same, which given the lower SpO2 readings might be improvement.

Interesting how we are both having better success with breathing while focusing on very different things.

Have you checked your control pause? Any improvement there? I don't know if mine has improved at all.

 

[tara]

Hi m-arch, nice report.

so I poured OJ on my head and it went away.

:)

I'm currently eating more rice , and it seems to give me more physical energy (and tastes good). More spontaneous desire for physical activity. Had already cut well back on milk for the sake of other symptoms. So I'm running on quite a bit of juice, rice, and meat too, with fruit and potatoes as well, and sweets for emergency snacks.

I've noticed that as far as my breathing is concerned, my migraines are usually accompanied by a fairly low/calm breathing rate. Possibly because I move so little and eat less during migraine, and maybe the whole thing involves transiently reduced metabolism? Haven't measured CP consistently for a while to see if this goes up or down.