PUFAs Better Than Saturated Fats?

[Cirion]

Ever tried just pounding tasty food down your throat? Serious question. Protein will warm you the most, then carbs. And just calories in general. You just need to eat. I only get temps that low if I were to eat like 50g of protein or less a day for a few days. The low protein in my case is obviously killing the thyroid and destroying the body's ability to keep itself warm.

Me and redsun have had our fair share of disagreements but the man is right with caloric intake. I have data from my database showing 95%+ correlation to increased body temperatures with increased calories.

Calories is the MAIN driver for increased temperatures.

 

[CLASH]

Just came across another study:

Substituting dietary saturated fat with polyunsaturated fat changes abdominal fat distribution and improves insulin sensitivity. - PubMed - NCBI

A total of 17 subjects - six people with Type II (non-insulin-dependent) diabetes mellitus, six non-obese and five obese people without diabetes - were randomised to spend two 5-week periods on a diet rich in saturated or in polyunsaturated fatty acids, in a crossover design. At the start of the study and after each dietary period, we assessed abdominal fat distribution using magnetic resonance imaging, insulin sensitivity using hyperinsulinaemic-euglycaemic clamps and fasting lipid parameters.

RESULTS:
Dietary compliance, assessed by weekly 3-day dietary records and measurement of biochemical markers, was good. Energy and fat intake appeared to be reduced on the diet rich in polyunsaturated fatty acids although body weights did not change. Insulin sensitivity and plasma low density lipoprotein cholesterol concentrations improved with the diet rich in polyunsaturated fatty acids compared with the diet rich in saturated fatty acids. There was also a decrease in abdominal subcutaneous fat area.

CONCLUSION/INTERPRETATION:
If this result is confirmed in longer-term studies, this dietary manipulation would be more readily achieved by the general population than the current recommendations and could result in considerable improvement in insulin sensitivity, reducing the risk of developing Type II diabetes.

This study shows nothing at all.
The polyunsaturated fat diet group ate 400kcal less than the saturated fat diet group.

The PUFA group also ate 37g less fat than the saturated fat group, and considering that the PUFA groups diet was only 80g of fat total, thats a whopping 50% of thier total less than the saturated fat group.

The PUFA groups bodyweight was on average 1 kg less, thier fasting glucose was .1 mmol less and thier hba1c was .3% less. The differences in these metrics are mindblowing......

As for fat distribution the main difference was in subcutaneous stores which saturated fat had more, but not by much.

Considering that the PUFA diet was also at a caloric deficit of 400 kcal mostly made up of fat, means that this study proves nothing in regards to PUFA vs. SAFA. Considering the physiology, the fact that increasing your fat and calories decreases insulin sensitivy a bit, is absolutely expected. This doesnt mean its pathologic nor does it mean its leading to diabetes. This is a feature of fat, not a pathology. Although this is tangential to your point, it also doesnt mean that SAFA causes diabetes, in fact quite the opposite. The markers that doctors use to assess diabetes are associative markers at best.

This study should be titled:

"Lowering calories by 400kcal per day and lowering fats by 40g per day can induce 1 kg of weightloss after 5 weeks"

*I attached pictures of the different charts so you can see what I'm talking about since you clearly dont fully read the studies you post.

 

[boris]

@CLASH thank you for these breakdowns. Is there any reasoning from the researchers for the caloric deficit of the PUFA diet over the SAF diet?

 

[RWilly]

Couple more studies:
Changes in Types of Dietary Fats Influence Long-term Weight Change in US Women and Men

"In 3 large prospective cohorts of US men and women, we found that types of dietary fats have diverging effects on long-term weight change. In particular, increasing consumption of n–6 and n–3 PUFAs as well as plant-based MUFA at the expense of carbohydrate was associated with less weight gain, whereas increasing intake of SFA and trans-fat was associated with greater weight gain."

A 7-day high-PUFA diet reduces angiopoietin-like protein 3 and 8 responses and postprandial triglyceride levels in healthy females but not males: a randomized control trial

Methods
Twenty-six adults were randomized into a PUFA diet (n = 16) or a control diet group (n = 10). Participants completed a pre-diet visit (v1) where they were given two SFA-rich, high-fat meals. Blood draws were taken at fasting and every 2 h postprandially for a total of 8 h. After v1, participants completed a 7d diet of the same macronutrient proportions (50% carbohydrate, 35% fat, 15% protein) but with different fatty acid (FA) compositions (PUFA = 21% of total energy from PUFAs vs. Control = 7% of total energy from PUFA). All participants then completed the post-diet visit (v2) identical to v1.

Results
In the PUFA group, females, but not males, reduced TG [triglyceride] concentrations (Area under the curve (AUC): 141.2 ± 18.7 vs. 80.7 ± 6.5 mg/dL/h, p = 0.01, for v1 vs. v2, respectively). Fasting and postprandial AUC levels of ANGPTL3 and 8, but not ANGPTL4, also decreased from v1 to v2 in PUFA females, but not males. No changes from v1 to v2 were seen in either sex in the control group.

Conclusions
A PUFA-rich diet improves TG levels in response to high-SFA meals with reductions in ANGPTL3 and ANGPTL8. PUFAs may be more protective against hypertriglyceridemia in females, compared to males since no diet effect was observed in males.

 

[YamnayaMommy]

Where did you read that hunter- gatherers ate a lot of nuts?

According to Shawn Baker, the tests carried out on bones of early humans indicate that our diet was heavily carnivorous( I think it had something to do with nitrogen content of bones), and agriculture had a bad impact on brain size, as well as bone size. Agriculture likely was a proxy for grain consumption. If ancient people were still learning that the hull of grains is full of anti-nutrients, then it would make sense that they were suffering the side- effects of those toxins. Nuts and seeds are very similar to grains, regarding hard fibers, phytic acid( which steals minerals from your digestive system), digestion inhibitors( since the seeds are the next generation of the plant that created them), PUFA( liekly because the temperature of seeds and nuts is lower than the temperature of mammals), as well as overall bad protein quality.

I don't see why ancient people would go out of their way just to look for hard seeds full of toxins and lacking important nutrients when they could spend their time hunting and eating smooth, juicy meats and internal organs of fat animals or trying to find honey. Maybe I'm missing something?

Also, it's interesting that bacteria can turn PUFA into SFA. I think that's why cows can even eat a lot of corn and still have a very saturated fat, with little PUFA: 3 out their 4 stomachs are full of bacteria, and they make this conversion for the cow. Chickens and pigs will get a quite PUFA-filled fat if they're fed corn and soy.

This is an interesting point often made by paleo proponents, that agriculture resulted in poorer health, decreases in height, etc. I hadn’t heard that about small brain size.

When i first started reading about ray peat, it struck me that his recommended diet evoked a pastoralist’s diet (with an emphasis on dairy and honey), the “civilizational” stage between hunger gathered and agriculture.

 

[gaze]

This is an interesting point often made by paleo proponents, that agriculture resulted in poorer health, decreases in height, etc. I hadn’t heard that about small brain size.

When i first started reading about ray peat, it struck me that his recommended diet evoked a pastoralist’s diet (with an emphasis on dairy and honey), the “civilizational” stage between hunger gathered and agriculture.

there were many different hominin species and all of them had tiny brains besides the neandertals who actually had bigger brains then we do now. they mainly ate meat But they were also much shorter and stockier so agriculture didn’t lead to a decrease in height as no one pre agriculture was consistently over 5’8 ish, and they also didn’t live very long, but obviously there living conditions weren’t ideal. But to say agriculture led to decreased health is a huge stretch as no one would be living to 100 without agriculture, let alone millions of people

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

This is an interesting point often made by paleo proponents, that agriculture resulted in poorer health, decreases in height, etc. I hadn’t heard that about small brain size.

When i first started reading about ray peat, it struck me that his recommended diet evoked a pastoralist’s diet (with an emphasis on dairy and honey), the “civilizational” stage between hunger gathered and agriculture.

Until Shawn talked about it, I hadn't heard about it either. Normally, it's the opposite argument that is made( by plant based people): it's starch that increased brain size, not meat.

Yeah, considering that Ray doesn't favor grains or legumes, agriculture has less of a value in that sense, except for fruit trees. I think he even said something along the lines of a diet of milk and meat being good. Also, pastoralism focuses on grazing animals( cattle, goats, yaks), which are ruminants, meaning that the PUFA content of the products from these animals is much smaller than in other animals( such as chickens, for example).

 

[YamnayaMommy]

Until Shawn talked about it, I hadn't heard about it either. Normally, it's the opposite argument that is made( by plant based people): it's starch that increased brain size, not meat.

Yeah, considering that Ray doesn't favor grains or legumes, agriculture has less of a value in that sense, except for fruit trees. I think he even said something along the lines of a diet of milk and meat being good. Also, pastoralism focuses on grazing animals( cattle, goats, yaks), which are ruminants, meaning that the PUFA content of the products from these animals is much smaller than in other animals( such as chickens, for example).

Yes, also interesting that some fruits (olives, dates) were I think cultivated earlier than pulses because people figured out grafting and other vegetative (clonal) means of propagation before sexual (seed based) propagation.

 

[YamnayaMommy]

there were many different hominin species and all of them had tiny brains besides the neandertals who actually had bigger brains then we do now. they mainly ate meat But they were also much shorter and stockier so agriculture didn’t lead to a decrease in height as no one pre agriculture was consistently over 5’8 ish, and they also didn’t live very long, but obviously there living conditions weren’t ideal. But to say agriculture led to decreased health is a huge stretch as no one would be living to 100 without agriculture, let alone millions of people

I think the argument is that agriculture led to shorter stature, worse teeth, and more infectious diseases (because agriculture allowed for population increases and denser living conditions).

 

[gaze]

I think the argument is that agriculture led to shorter stature, worse teeth, and more infectious diseases (because agriculture allowed for population increases and denser living conditions).

I would tend to agree with all of those except the shorter stature. (based off the evidence that i’ve seen and read in anthropology and archaeology courses in college). Also the crooked teeth can be debated as to what exactly is the cause

 

[Fon]

But consider it from the viewpoint of the stressed, adrenaline-dependent, high PUFA person. If PUFA keeps the cellular energy high and fuels the stress response, that would explain a lot (it's like a bad cycle that keeps spinning and "powering" the person that they depend on/are accustomed to). If one eliminated PUFA from that state and quelled the adrenaline, the underlying, thyroid-driven energy (or one's actual metabolism) could be super bad and bring a person to an even more weakened/sick state.

I thought I had superb natural energy when I was running stressed/anxious/caffeine-fueled and in "wannabe super mode" -- take it away and I crashed hard.

It's like the concept of weaning off of something or a drug addict trying to quit and relapses in to a worse condition than they were previously in. Being stressed and "running on adrenaline" is how many people operate and have done so for some time (plus caffeine-dependent in some cases too). Maybe like @TNT said: we need "Ray Peat For Dummies" in a sense (I like that -- could simplify most of the "but" questions most of us would have, although I don't consider myself a dummy personally).

Could we be going at it wrong by suggesting people just drop the PUFA and try to switch off "adrenaline mode" and having them crash/fall possibly dangerously hard? It could be like pulling the walking stick/crutches away from someone who has bad legs. Maybe a better "transition" should be the ideal from PUFA to no PUFA and etc.

I mean looking at this from a bioenergetic angle, it might make sense that, say, some old person who is really weak in many key areas might rely on adrenaline+stress to do anything, including getting out of bed in the morning (and you don't even need to be old exactly either) might die if you tried to get them off these things since they have no other sufficient energy supply. It's like a really, really bad energy system adaptation -- that's how I see it.

As for the subject, I won't call saturated fats good without any possibility of bad outcomes being possible. I also won't say the exact opposite of PUFAs, but generally PUFA should be low and SFA should be reasonably higher. The reason that article like many others come to these type of conclusions is that they're often not looking at the bigger picture or the minute details very well, among other flaws/inconsideration. It's easy to just grab any study and find almost anything you want to assert/believe, but it takes more than that to get to the bottom of things.

I am EXACTLY that old person you described. Running on adrenaline. Anyone have any suggestions to ease the transition? Sometimes I can't even remember the important tasks I need to accomplish on any given day without my stimulants!! If do remember, I still dont have the energy to get them done without caffeine, diet pills, redbulls,adderall etc. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[boris]

I would say take care of everything you need to. Lower your estrogen, lower endotoxin and serotonin and relieve your liver, eat sucrose to keep the stress response under control, Vit E and Aspirin to block stored PUFA, eat salt, eat enough calories, enough calcium, lots of protein and lots and lots of good carbs, don't skip the liver and oysters, don't forget about sunlight. A slow transition (going at things one by one) is what potentially can cause problems, because it is such a interconnected cycle.

 

[redsun]

I am EXACTLY that old person you described. Running on adrenaline. Anyone have any suggestions to ease the transition? Sometimes I can't even remember the important tasks I need to accomplish on any given day without my stimulants!! If do remember, I still dont have the energy to get them done without caffeine, diet pills, redbulls,adderall etc. Any advice would be appreciated.

Old people don't run on adrenaline lol... They run on cortisol, and barely run at all. You probably can't make your own adrenaline and probably lack vitamin C(which makes noradrenaline and then you get noradrenaline -> adrenaline). Thyroid works synergistically with the adrenals. Stimulants(like caffeine) increase adrenaline and you heavily rely on these noradrenaline, adrenaline boosting stimulants to get you by. Taking B complex and extra methyl B12 and folate and vit. C to run the methylation cycle through to make more SAMe(makes adrenaline from noradrenaline). That way you can slowly rely less and less on stimulants. Protein stimulates the nervous system and is super important.

 

[Fon]

Old people don't run on adrenaline lol... They run on cortisol, and barely run at all. You probably can't make your own adrenaline and probably lack vitamin C(which makes noradrenaline and then you get noradrenaline -> adrenaline). Thyroid works synergistically with the adrenals. Stimulants(like caffeine) increase adrenaline and you heavily rely on these noradrenaline, adrenaline boosting stimulants to get you by. Taking B complex and extra methyl B12 and folate and vit. C to run the methylation cycle through to make more SAMe(makes adrenaline from noradrenaline). That way you can slowly rely less and less on stimulants. Protein stimulates the nervous system and is super important.

Thank u for taking the time to respond to old cortisol addict (A LITTLE MORE ACCURATE, EH?) I WILL BE INCORPORATING YOUR SUGGESTIONS ON THE 1ST OV NOV. WILL UPDATE. ANYTHING ELSE?

 

[Fon]

I would say take care of everything you need to. Lower your estrogen, lower endotoxin and serotonin and relieve your liver, eat sucrose to keep the stress response under control, Vit E and Aspirin to block stored PUFA, eat salt, eat enough calories, enough calcium, lots of protein and lots and lots of good carbs, don't skip the liver and oysters, don't forget about sunlight. A slow transition (going at things one by one) is what potentially can cause problems, because it is such a interconnected cycle.

Thanks Boris, how does one lower estrogen? I just recently started taking vit e (d alpha tocopherol acetate 400iu and d alpha tocopherol succinate 200iu in my multi) and aspirin ( can't decide how much to take). Also I hate oyster and liver, what should I do to help my poor overworked liver?

 

[redsun]

Thank u for taking the time to respond to old cortisol addict (A LITTLE MORE ACCURATE, EH?) I WILL BE INCORPORATING YOUR SUGGESTIONS ON THE 1ST OV NOV. WILL UPDATE. ANYTHING ELSE?

Get lots of protein to feed the nervous system and make sure you get plenty of electrolytes especially potassium which will get used up faster.

 

[Fon]

also they’re missing the fact that saturated fat prevents ketosis because it promotes glucose metabolism, which is a good thing.

Saturated fat prevents ketosis? I thought the low carb keto people lived on it? Coconut, butter steaks etc

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Saturated fat prevents ketosis? I thought the low carb keto people lived on it? Coconut, butter steaks etc

I don't think saturated fats fully prevent ketosis, but even if they did, people doing keto are eating a significant amount of mono- unsaturated fats as well, which would probably be somewhere in between sat. fats and PUFAs when it comes to ketone generation.

Keto diets also have higher amounts of PUFA compared with low fat diets, which turn into ketones more easily.

Amber O' Hearn discussed it briefly in one of her talks.

 

[gaze]

it’s not that it prevents ketosis it’s that it takes longer to get into ketosis compared to pufas, which is what the original study was about

 

[boris]

Thanks Boris, how does one lower estrogen? I just recently started taking vit e (d alpha tocopherol acetate 400iu and d alpha tocopherol succinate 200iu in my multi) and aspirin ( can't decide how much to take). Also I hate oyster and liver, what should I do to help my poor overworked liver?

Vit A, D, E, K2. Rays carrot salad or well cooked mushrooms daily help lower estrogen in the gut too and thus help your liver by taking off some of the burden.