PUFAs Better Than Saturated Fats?

[TNT]

Thoughts about what they're saying in this article?

https://bodybio.com/blog/keto_fats/

 

[schultz]

I looked at the study he cites (Fuehrlein, 2004) out of interest. From my calculation, if the subjects were eating 2,000 calories per day, the amount of PUFA they would have been consuming was around 93g per day. Holy *bleep*! I guess that is enough daily PUFA to poison your bodies energy system.

 

[xetawaves]

The fact that some people will read this, believe it, and change their diets accordingly is honestly really sad..

 

[TNT]

@xetawaves , it would be helpful if you would comment on the specifics of it rather than just saying it's wrong.

 

[ExCarniv]

Thoughts about what they're saying in this article?

https://bodybio.com/blog/keto_fats/

That's not an article, is just a pufa propaganda by a brand that sells oils lol

 

[TNT]

Thanx, @ExCarniv . But they're referencing studies, so I would love it if you could comment more specifically on the science of it rather than just saying they're wrong.

 

[tara]

Thoughts about what they're saying in this article?

The article seems to say:
- You can get into ketosis quicker with PUFAs than SFAs.
- There are lots of known downsides to ketogenic diets, and it probably mainly works for weightloss by reducing calorie intake anyway.
- Ketogenic diets often leave people with nutritional deficiencies, so buy our supplement to replace some of the nutrients.

What did you read that you are questioning and want comment on?

 

[gaze]

The article seems to say:
- You can get into ketosis quicker with PUFAs than SFAs.
- There are lots of known downsides to ketogenic diets, and it probably mainly works for weightloss by reducing calorie intake anyway.
- Ketogenic diets often leave people with nutritional deficiencies, so buy our supplement to replace some of the nutrients.

What did you read that you are questioning and want comment on?

also they’re missing the fact that saturated fat prevents ketosis because it promotes glucose metabolism, which is a good thing.

 

[TNT]

Thank you, @tara . This part in particular stood out for me: "A diet high in saturated fat likely would impair insulin sensitivity (Vessby, 2001) and have an adverse effect on lipid and lipoprotein metabolism with concurrent risk of vascular endangerment (Danke, 2001) (Hu, 2001)"

 

[TNT]

@Kammas , where you say that saturated fat promotes glucose metabolism, how does that relate to saturated fat impairing insulin sensitivity?

 

[tara]

Thank you, @tara . This part in particular stood out for me: "A diet high in saturated fat likely would impair insulin sensitivity (Vessby, 2001) and have an adverse effect on lipid and lipoprotein metabolism with concurrent risk of vascular endangerment (Danke, 2001) (Hu, 2001)"

If you use the search box to search for PUFA thread titles by Haidut, you can find quite a few posts with descriptions and links indicating harmful effects of PUFAs in relation to both glucose metabolism and cardiovascular health.
Here's one:
PUFA (metabolites) Drive Heart Failure And Possibly Diabetes

The Vessby paper referenced in the article you linked seems to contradict some of the conclusions drawn in the article.
" A beneficial impact of the fat quality on insulin sensitivity is not seen in individuals with a high fat intake (> 37E%)."
So if I'm reading them right, using that paper as support in the context of a ketogenic diet seems irrelevant. (It compares higher SFA with higher MUFA; PUFA are the same 6% of energy in all subjects.)

 

[tankasnowgod]

Thanx, @ExCarniv . But they're referencing studies, so I would love it if you could comment more specifically on the science of it rather than just saying they're wrong.

Anyone can reference a study like they do in the article (Krippner, 2019), but that doesn't mean that it in any way backs up the claims of the article. Personally, I have no interest in a ketogenic diet or eating more PUFA, but if you are interested in the article, I suggest you look up the studies cited that they deem important. I've personally noticed that references are often times based on very weak data, and sometimes even cite studies that show the exact opposite of what they are claiming in an article. I find that far more valuable than simply looking for others opinions on such articles.

References

Remote Viewing of Concealed Target Pictures Under Light and Dark Conditions. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Peater]

References

Remote Viewing of Concealed Target Pictures Under Light and Dark Conditions. - PubMed - NCBI

I inadvertently lol'd hard

 

[Ihor]

@Kammas , where you say that saturated fat promotes glucose metabolism, how does that relate to saturated fat impairing insulin sensitivity?

Most likely, it starts to happen through the Randle Cycle, regardless of the type of fatty acids, and when their concentration exceeds some conditional admissible threshold. There is something here:

"Fatty Acids and Insulin"​

"Fatty acids may act directly upon the pancreatic β-cell to regulate glucose-stimulated insulin secretion. This effect is biphasic. Initially fatty acids potentiate the effects of glucose. After prolonged exposure to high fatty acid concentrations this changes to an inhibition. Randle suggested that the term fatty acid syndrome would be appropriate to apply to the biochemical syndrome resulting from the high concentration of fatty acids and the relationship to abnormalities of carbohydrate metabolism, including starvation, diabetes and Cushing’s syndrome."
- Randle cycle - Wikipedia

"Fatty acids and insulin secretion"​

"It has long been recognized that acute elevation of non-esterified fatty acids (NEFA) stimulates insulin secretion to a moderate extent both in vitro and in vivo. The effects of longer-term exposure to elevated fatty acids have, however, been investigated only recently. Our own studies in the rat have documented the time dependence of NEFA effects, with inhibition of glucose-induced insulin secretion being apparent after 6–24 h in vivo exposure to Intralipid or in vitro exposure to palmitate, oleate and octanoate. Evidence indicates that the inhibitory effects are coupled to fatty acid oxidation in B-cells, with ensuing reduction in glucose oxidation, in parallel with diminished activity of the pyruvate dehydrogenase enzyme. These findings were essentially confirmed in human pancreatic islets. In the db/db mouse, a model of type 2 diabetes with obesity, evidence was obtained for elevated NEFA playing a significant role in decreased glucose-induced insulin secretion. Evidence also indicates that elevated NEFA inhibit insulin biosynthesis and increase the proinsulin : insulin ratio of secretion. Results on experimentally induced elevations of NEFA in non-diabetic and diabetic humans are thus far inconclusive. Further studies are needed to ascertain the impact of elevated NEFA on insulin secretion in clinical settings."
- Fatty acids and insulin secretion | British Journal of Nutrition | Cambridge Core

"Free fatty acids and insulin resistance"​

Abstract. Purpose of reviewDysregulation of free fatty acid metabolism is a key event responsible for insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes. According to the glucose-fatty acid cycle of Randle, preferential oxidation of free fatty acids over glucose plays a major role in insulin sensitivity and the metabolic disturbances of diabetes mellitus. However, other mechanisms are now described to explain the molecular basis of insulin resistance.

Recent findings. Recent studies have suggested that local accumulation of fat metabolites such as ceramides, diacylglycerol or acyl-CoA, inside skeletal muscle and liver, may activate a serine kinase cascade leading to defects in insulin signalling and glucose transport. Inflammation and oxidative stress are also potent mechanisms which could lead to a state of insulin resistance. Finally, modulation of transcription by free fatty acids through their binding to peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors could also contribute to impaired glucose metabolism.

Summary. The increase in free fatty acid flux resulting from increased lipolysis secondary to adipose-tissue insulin resistance induces or aggravates insulin resistance in liver and muscle through direct or indirect (from triglyceride deposits) generation of metabolites, altering the insulin signalling pathway. Alleviating the excess of free fatty acids is a target for the treatment of insulin resistance.
Free fatty acids and insulin resistance

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Also, saturated fat doesn't overload the cells with energy, but PUFA does. "Insulin resistance" could also just be a mechanism to prevent excessive entrance of electrons into the cell.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Nevermind

 

[schultz]

Thank you, @tara . This part in particular stood out for me: "A diet high in saturated fat likely would impair insulin sensitivity (Vessby, 2001) and have an adverse effect on lipid and lipoprotein metabolism with concurrent risk of vascular endangerment (Danke, 2001) (Hu, 2001)"

The Vessby study showed a few things. When fat intake was above 37% of the diet, insulin sensitivity was unchanged between the two different fat groups. The fat groups tested were SAT and MUFA (but not PUFA). This doesn't seem relevant to a ketosis diet since fat intake would be much higher. The study seems to argue for keeping your fat on the lower side (see second quote). I think they measure insulin sensitivity with a glucose tolerance test. So when saturated fats are the major fat in the diet the glucose falls slower after a glucose tolerance test. I am not sure what this really means for us physiologically (bad or good?), or why it happens (someone else may). Would including fructose change those results? Mineral status? Good questions to ask.

"When the effects of treatment were analysed in participants with a fat intake above and below median during the study, respectively, the diverging effect of dietary saturated and monounsaturated fatty acids on insulin sensitivity was seen mainly in subjects with a fat intake below median mean intake 33.9%"

"At a high total-fat intake, the positive effects of MUFA contra SAFA seem to be lost with regard to insulin sensitivity, even if the proportion or total intake of SAFA is low. This finding is a strong argument for present nutrition recommendations underlining the importance not only of the fatty acid composition, but also the proportion of total fat in a diet."

 

[lampofred]

Have you read RP's articles on unsaturated oils at raypeat.com? They answer your questions in far greater detail than anyone on here can.

 

[TNT]

@lampofred , I have, but honestly, I can't understand RP's articles. A couple paragraphs in, my eyes start to roll to the back of my head. I need "Ray Peat for Dummies."

 

[TNT]

@Rafael Lao Wai , this is interesting: "saturated fat doesn't overload the cells with energy, but PUFA does." Could you please say more about that?