Obesity Caused By Gut Flora

[Cirion]

Very interesting posts @jamies33 .I'm thinking some of what you say may be my problems lately with digestion / gut bloating etc.

Do you have lots of maple syrup to try to counter act the iron as well? I notice for me maple syrup usually makes me feel pretty good so I wonder if that's why (the manganese in it). It's also one of the main sources of calories while doing a master cleanse alongside lemons/limes. Seems like folks like us need to eat low quantities of fermented foods. Unfortunately, it seems as though carbs in general are bacteria promoting, which makes getting used to high carbs rather hard... and would explain why carbs/sugar gets a bad reputation.

Your train of thought on endotoxins dysregulating appetite and thus being obesity promoting resonates with me as well.

When I first started peat I had an excessive appetite (as do many), and I still eat more than I feel like I need to or should. Myself, and many others experience problems like bloat and whatnot starting off. I think it is all related.

It would also explain why a short stint of fasting (killing off bacteria) can help normalize appetite. Now I understand why some people here are a huge fan of juice cleanses. I tried one last weekend but failed to hunger (I need fat, can't go without it) which makes me want to make my own "modified" juice cleanse which maybe is something like a normal juice cleanse, but with bacteria-neutral fats like coconut oil.

Even though my 2 day juice fast was somewhat of a fail (I was starving for fat at the end), I did notice it dropped my need for calories from 5000 a day to 4000 a day or so...

Hmmm.... I think more pieces of the puzzle are coming together for me now!

I will try my own modified juice fast this weekend with what I've learned from here and see how it goes.

All this may explain why I had incredible success on Keto (best libido / mood of my life basically) for a while. Not because going high fat is necessarily ideal, but rather because how I was eating was anti-bacterial. Starving the bacteria of the carbs they like to eat.

Finally its nice to have some answers as to why I think I seem to do better on high fat intake than high carb (so far at least).

pboy made some interesting posts, but no matter how good your outlook on life is, you still need to fix some underlying nutritional problems. My experience has shown me I can "fake it" and force myself to do something when I'm not in a right frame of mind, and it is certainly beneficial to do so sometimes, but it doesn't have the same impact as when my body is legitimately in a healthy place. I totally agree, sometimes you find yourself in a stressful situation and have no choice but to deal with it, and just because you can, doesn't mean you are anywhere near optimal health and this stressful environment/diet etc needs to be addressed asap.

Navy seals, and others in the military often age at an incredible rate due to the chronic stress and tend to look like 10 yrs older than they are, from what I've heard. Stress in general tends to do that so its never good to just accept stress unless you absolutely have to.

There was a comment made that adrenaline is beneficial and cortisol is not. Can someone explain this to me? I always thought that adrenaline is the driver for increased cortisol as well. Adrenaline is the "feel good, energetic hormone" to help you have energy in a stressful situation. However, the problem is, when adrenaline is too high for too long, cortisol starts to drag up alongside it - and high cortisol is what causes intense fatigue, so that when the adrenaline spike ends, you want to take a nap. Or, correct me if I'm wrong?

 

[YourUniverse]

All this may explain why I had incredible success on Keto (best libido / mood of my life basically) for a while. Not because going high fat is necessarily ideal, but rather because how I was eating was anti-bacterial. Starving the bacteria of the carbs they like to eat.

Thats a nice summary of my experience and thoughts on the matter as well

 

[Cirion]

If you were me, what would be your steps to contain an out of control bloated gut? I'm sick of it and want to be rid of it. I am reading up on what foods seem to be higher / worse on the fermented scale, so that's a start I suppose - trying to eliminate foods high on this list. I am always bloated, even when I wake up in the morning (just to a slightly lesser degree).

Annoying that ANY carbs seem to feed endotoxin at least to some degree, and probably the fact I have to eat a mountain of sugar to maintain energy levels doesn't help matters (I eat upwards of 700-1000g a day), a veritable feast for any nasty microbes in my gut no doubt.

 

[SOMO]

If you were me, what would be your steps to contain an out of control bloated gut? I'm sick of it and want to be rid of it. I am reading up on what foods seem to be higher / worse on the fermented scale, so that's a start I suppose - trying to eliminate foods high on this list. I am always bloated, even when I wake up in the morning (just to a slightly lesser degree).

Annoying that ANY carbs seem to feed endotoxin at least to some degree, and probably the fact I have to eat a mountain of sugar to maintain energy levels doesn't help matters (I eat upwards of 700-1000g a day), a veritable feast for any nasty microbes in my gut no doubt.

Actually sucrose, glucose and fructose are absorbed almost entirely in the small intestine, which is very sterile and lacking in many microbes.

If you're trying to reduce bloating and reduce the amount of gut bacteria, I'm afraid the best thing is to TEMPORARILY (not for the rest of your life) go on a low-carb diet.

I actually find I get more bloated (and constipated) from a green smoothie than a potato, indicating that cellulose is more of a problem for me than starch.


Even fructose surprisingly is not likely to feed gut microbes and create bloating. I wish I had the study saved, but I distinctly remember having the same issue as you and looking into fructose (because I didn't want to get more bloating) and fructose is not a prebiotic because of how quickly and easily it is digested in the small intestine. The majority of microbes that would bloat you are bottom-feeders in the large intestine.

Fructose also has slightly laxative properties, so it's really a safe carbohydrate for reducing bloating. Even if you have to decrease carb/veggie intake,

 

[Cirion]

Ok, but low carb-ing is what caused me to have lots of problems in the first place. I don't necessarily have any problems going back to that for a little while, but that seems like a band-aid fix - once I bring the carbs back, what is to prevent the bloat from coming back again as well?

Things like brain fog / fatigue / moodiness return if I drop or lower the carbs, and I fear any positive effects I've gained while on Peat are going to go out the window if I drop them back out again... with stress responses etc...

Guess I'm looking for a game plan, I'm not ready to drop the carbs unless I know how to bring them back without problems again.

If fructose is not a problem, then why am I having issues? Almost all of my carbohydrate is from fruit / juices / maple syrup etc (i.e., high fructose foods). And I currently eat basically zero starch, not really any veggies either.

I'd like to believe what you said about fructose, but it isn't matching with my current experience. I dropped basically all of my lactose intake (milk bloated me so much I felt like I would explode, dropping almost all my milk intake decreased it slightly but it's still excessive).

I don't know if this piece of information is useful, but I have done very high carb (600g+ a day) in the past with some success, looking back, I have no idea why it was a success, lol. Anyway, almost all of my carbs were from powders (Maltodexrin mostly I think), and I don't recall having any bloating then. In fact, it even leaned me out. This makes me think that carbs are not an issue per-se, but the sources of them. Which in particular are troubling me, though, I don't know. I think I kinda answered my own question as such, in that, its not the carbs, but the source of carbs. It's worth noting too that I got bored of the powders (no health issues, that I could see), and decided to start adding other carbs (starches) and thats when my health started to deteriorate. So starches are definitely a no go for me for sure.

I don't wanna live on maltodextrin though... lol...

 

[SOMO]

Ok, but low carb-ing is what caused me to have lots of problems in the first place. I don't necessarily have any problems going back to that for a little while, but that seems like a band-aid fix - once I bring the carbs back, what is to prevent the bloat from coming back again as well?

I also went Ketogenic and was doing heavy cardio at the time and it zapped my libido to 0 in only a few weeks. I literally think Keto caused me to "run out" of hormones (the beneficial ones anyway.)
I think an often overlooked fact about Ketosis/low-carb is the fact that the integrity of the intestines is strengthened by fiber. Low-carb also possibly increases endotoxin.
Ketosis/Low-carb always reduces fiber intake by definition.
A good solution would be Low-carb + supplement with Bob's Red Mill Potato Starch (for the butyrate.)
The potato starch by itself has been shown not to make it to the large intestine (so no bloating) but you still get the benefits of Butyrate - which is the main reason why someone would want to eat fiber anyway besides the fact that it fills you up and makes it easy to reduce calories.

Things like brain fog / fatigue / moodiness return if I drop or lower the carbs, and I fear any positive effects I've gained while on Peat are going to go out the window if I drop them back out again... with stress responses etc...
Low-fiber doesn't necessarily mean ketosis, fortunately. I think a mostly meat-based diet with some fermented dairy (not milk) and added sugar or fruit is good for bloating.
Guess I'm looking for a game plan, I'm not ready to drop the carbs unless I know how to bring them back without problems again.

If fructose is not a problem, then why am I having issues? Almost all of my carbohydrate is from fruit / juices / maple syrup etc (i.e., high fructose foods). And I currently eat basically zero starch, not really any veggies either.
Have you tried to test your fructose tolerance? There is a condition called Fructose Malabsorption which RP believes is caused by gut damage (as in, gut damage you already have currently.)
1 packet of Emergen-C is 7g of Crystalline Fructose so 4-5 packets should have a noticeable effect if you have issues digesting it. Fructose Malabsorption requires 25-30g of Fructose all at once to diagnose. If you get diarrhea from a large amount of fructose it means you are not properly digesting it. Using real fruit for the fructose malabsorption test may not work because there's so much else in fruits besides just fructose.

I'd like to believe what you said about fructose, but it isn't matching with my current experience. I dropped basically all of my lactose intake (milk bloated me so much I felt like I would explode, dropping almost all my milk intake decreased it slightly but it's still excessive).
I'm not surprised milk bloats you, considering LACTOSE IS A FIBER/PREBIOTIC.
I've heard vegans say animal products don't have fiber, but that is not the case for milk.)
In addition, dairy has things called BMOs (Bovine Milk Oligosaccharides) which also function as additional fiber/prebiotic/food for microbes. Yogurt > dairy in this case. If you're worried about the bacteria in the yogurt itself, you can freeze the yogurt and then reheat in the microwave and that should kill the probiotics.
If all else fails, try aspirin and/or natural antimicrobials (oregano oil and wormwood are both potent.) There's also the chemical route - Rifaximin, penicillin and tetracycline are all relatively mild antibiotics that in low-doses can correct some of these issues.

I'm sure you'll find something that will improve your issues, you just have to keep self-experimenting.

Responses in italics.

 

[YourUniverse]

It would not be right for me to give advice here because I'm not totally sure. I'll say this though, as it applies to me and seems like it may apply to you.

Eat what feels right, with a Peat prism in mind. Go by feel, and when in doubt, fall back on Peat basics. Feel first, think second, at least until you've found your right path.

theLaw recommends eating higher fat at the beginning for what he calls "damage control". It's probably for issues like these, where higher fat is simply more satiating and thus more healthy despite imperfect macros.

Maybe look into more "traditional" diet advice, too, like eating more solid foods, having a more balanced p-c-f ratio per meal, and etc.

One thing to note is that there exists a condition called SIBO - Small Intestine Bacterial Overgrowth, so not everyone's small intestine is sterile as it should be. The website fuckportioncontrol.com is founded by a Peat disciple of this forum, and he has some good ideas for combating SIBO, such as the use of vinegar, sodium acetate (baking soda and vinegar), and horseradish. It's probably worth a read for some further investigation, as is searching this forum.

If there's any more I can think of, I'll be sure to post. Good luck sir!

 

[Broken man]

I didnt read whole thread, sorry for that. I was focusing on fighting candida last few weeks. I found that candida could change our gut microbiome and I believe that people here should more care about candida given the fact that alot of members are using antibiotics and things of that nature. I have celiac disease which means that my intestine is damaged and easily inflamed. First thing I tried is MCT oil, I had only powder and went little crazy, took big dose and had die off for next 3 days but its miracle. My brain really likes it too. Apple cider vinegar before every meal, magnesium malate, kefir , digestive enzymes. I dont know if I cured my gut but I feel the change and will stay with this routine for some time.

 

[SOMO]

I didnt read whole thread, sorry for that. I was focusing on fighting candida last few weeks. I found that candida could change our gut microbiome and I believe that people here should more care about candida given the fact that alot of members are using antibiotics and things of that nature. I have celiac disease which means that my intestine is damaged and easily inflamed. First thing I tried is MCT oil, I had only powder and went little crazy, took big dose and had die off for next 3 days but its miracle. My brain really likes it too. Apple cider vinegar before every meal, magnesium malate, kefir , digestive enzymes. I dont know if I cured my gut but I feel the change and will stay with this routine for some time.

There's very little evidence Candida is an issue for people who aren't immune-suppressed.

Candida is an opportunist, not a direct pathogen.

If you're getting Candida, it's likely because you have SIBO or there is an imbalance in your gut flora.

 

[Cirion]

FODMAP is definitely part of the picture for me, I think I've verified today.

I cut out the cottage cheese which was normally my lunch the last few days, and bloating is down, energy is up, and body temperature is up as well.

I replaced it with beef, which seemed to treat me way better.

Still more bloated than I'd like, and I know it will take some time, but encouraging to get at least some results quickly.

Will also do lots of lemon/lime/baking soda/vinegar.

 

[SQu]

I've been alternating between raw carrots, cooked mushrooms, bamboo shoots and granular AC and make sure to have one of them each day. I also use cascara a few times per week. I use various antibiotics like doxycycline, amoxicillin or ampicillin periodically too. Limiting starch to the best of my ability is helpful but I still have it occasionally for family meals or if it's completely unavoidable. I feel

Blossom, do you alternate for better results or due to boredom with the carrot? I'm one of those people who, if I am cold and I eat one it'll sit like a stone in my stomach. I never feel great for it, and can no longer even face it, to the point where I was using cascara (for constipation mostly but also hopefully against the endotoxin problem) until recently I was able to increase coffee to 3 -4 a day and no longer need the cascara which is a breakthrough, as constipation was one of the oldest and most intractable problems from years of low carbing. But I'm considering your varied approach as I'm not there yet in terms of health and weight loss, though I've made a lot of progress and it's accelerating. So a thought on the carrot.. If it sits like a stone maybe the problem is mostly low metabolism; if it warms you maybe the problem is mostly endotoxin.

Even though my 2 day juice fast was somewhat of a fail (I was starving for fat at the end),

Very low fat a fail for me too. I feel horrible. Stressed, anxious, restless, I'll get constant indigestion, gut pain, and I stop for fear of what I'm doing to my gut. If I add starch but not fat I'll feel better to begin with but then I'll get blood sugar swings and a gradual sluggish dull 'off' feeling. So I finally made my peace with plenty of fat and sugar, and very low starch. In spite of that pesky Randle cycle thing. That's how I feel best, metabolism rises, and I make progress.

f you were me, what would be your steps to contain an out of control bloated gut? '

Do you take thyroid? My bloating went from bad, to mild and occasional.

Things like brain fog / fatigue / moodiness return if I drop or lower the carbs, and I fear

So what you say elsewhere about sugar working for you for the most part (be interesting to see what happens with the fructose test) is true for me too. I think you may find it takes time but you're on the right track. How long have you been following this approach? Apologies if I missed that.

theLaw recommends eating higher fat at the beginning for what he calls "damage control". It's probably for issues like these, where higher fat is simply more satiating and thus more healthy despite imperfect macros.

True in my experience. But also true because of the anti bacterial effect in the gut of fats? The nerve protection? I think these things may have played a huge role for me. Sorry, I'm a bit rusty on the details, been out of the loop, but I've pondered my case and my improvements, especially as I've been puzzled by the Randle conundrum - seeing as while the scale is much the same, visibly I'm a lot thinner - and I feel much better. Like an almost normal weight person. Or getting there. Except on my stomach and I think lots of winter sunshine and outdoors, and fresh orange juice is going to make a difference this season. And fats have been key, even though low carb is what damaged me so badly. A few examples: i crave butter and egg yolks, feel fantastic on them; I feel better for MCT and cocoa butter has been a game changer. If I had the money and trusted my local postal service and customs I'd try haidut's fat products like cardiolipin, suspect they'd do a lot for me.

 

[Blossom]

Blossom, do you alternate for better results or due to boredom with the carrot?

I just go by what sounds good. I eat more cooked mushrooms and boiled bamboo shoots than carrots because I like them better. Sometimes I eat carrots with this dip. It's probably not quite as optimal as Peat's carrot salad but it's nice for variety and sits well with me personally. I eat about a 1/4 cup so it's not an excessive amount of yogurt and I use 1/2 Greek yogurt and 1/2 sour cream when I make the recipe.
https://www.yummly.com/recipe/Tzatziki-sauce-345900?prm-v1
My number one strategy at this point is to enjoy my food.