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FODMAPs (so Fructose, Lactose And Not Just Grains And Beans) Increase Bacterias Controling Fermentat

Discussion in 'Digestion, Gut Flora' started by Parsifal, Sep 19, 2015.

  1. Parsifal

    Parsifal Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,073
    So gut health is one of the most important thing.
    There are a lot of theories and alternative healing communities on the web like the leaky gut GAPS thing. People are saying that the gut is the 2nd brain and the flora is involved in a lot of different things like digestion (they produce enzymes and vitamins), immune system, hormones regulation, inflammation, infections, obesity and weight issues, mental illnesses, etc.
    A lot of us are having chronic and recurring issues like IBS, SIBO, cramps and spasms, flatulences, constipation, diarrhea...

    I know that Peat is quite focused on fibers, bacterias that control fermentation and endotoxins and things that cause irritation for overal health and today I came across a french article on FODMAPs, I thought I had to create a topic on it because it is an interesting thing that seems to not have been discussed here yet. Indeed, FODMAPs seem involved in the overgrowth of bacteria controling fermentation, so not just grains and beans.

    There is a debate about soluble/non-soluble, fermentable fibers/carbohydrates here https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7043 that is worth reading (I've not finished reading it yet).

    Here are some Peat-based blogs on fibers, carbohydrates, starches, fructose and endotoxins if you haven't read what he says on the topic yet:

    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... -fructose/
    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2011/1 ... d-healing/
    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2013/0 ... as-healer/
    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2011/0 ... ne-system/

    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... ryptophan/
    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... ne-health/
    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... ed-stress/

    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2011/1 ... er-health/
    http://microbialinfluence.com/
    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... ate-aging/
    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2011/1 ... -the-ways/
    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2011/1 ... er-health/
    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... ypothesis/
    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2011/1 ... endotoxin/
    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2013/0 ... dotoxemia/
    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/1 ... endotoxin/

    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2011/0 ... ut-emodin/
    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... -function/
    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... aw-carrot/
    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... oo-shoots/


    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... tolerance/
    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... nal-flora/
    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... ggression/
    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2011/1 ... nd-cancer/
    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2010/0 ... out-fiber/
    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2014/0 ... -starches/

    Let's go back to our topic:

    F = Fermentescibles (rapidly fermented by colon's bacteria)
    O = Oligosaccharides (fructans and galacto-oligosaccharides or GOS)
    D = Disaccharides (lactose)
    M = Monosaccharides (too much fructose/glucose ratio)
    A = And
    P = Polyols (sorbitol, mannitol, xylitol and maltitol)


    It seems that people with enough lactase enzyme (it is said that a lot of us can't produce it) can only digest 125mL of milk (6g of lactose)?

    Food high in FODMAP:

    High in fructose

    Fruits:

    Apples, mangoes, watermelon, canned fruits in their juice.

    Sweeteners:

    Fructose, corn syrup.

    Food very high in fructose:

    Fruits concentrate, High fruits portion, dried fruits, fruits juices, honey.

    High in Lactoses

    Milk:

    Milk (cow, goat, ewe), cream, ice cream, yogourt, dairy desserts, milk powder.

    Cheese:

    Soft cheese,unripened (cottage, mascarpone, ricotta).

    High in Fructanes

    Vegetables:

    Artichoke, asparagus, beetroot, brocoli, Brussel sproot, cabbage, aubergine (eggplant), fennel, garlic, leek, okra, onion.

    Grains:

    Wheat or rye (ej. : bread, crackers, cakes, couscous, pastas).

    Fruits :

    Apple, Watermelon, Persimmons.

    Others:

    Chicory, dandelion, inulin, pistachio nut.

    High in Galacto-oligosacharides

    Legumes:

    Chickpeas, red beans, pinto, lima, mungo, lentils, soya beans.

    High in Polyols

    Fruits:

    Apple, apricot, avocado, mulberry, cherry, longan, litchi, nashi, nectarine, peach, pear, plum, prune, watermelon.

    Vegetables:

    Cauliflower, green pepper, mushrooms, corn, snow peas.

    Sweeteners:

    Sorbitol (420), mannitol (421), isomalt (953), maltitol (965), xylitol (967).

    Others:

    Gum, minth, lollipop.

    Food low in FODMAP:

    Fruits:

    Bananas, blueberry, cantaloup, cranberry, durian, grapes, grapefruit, honeydrew melon, kiwi, lemon, lime, mandarin, orange, passion fruit, papaya, raspberry, rhubard, strawberry.

    *If the fruits are dried, eat only small quantities.

    Vegetables:

    Alfalfa, bamboo shoots, bean sproots, bok choy, carrots, celery, chayote, pak choy, endive, ginger, green beans, lettuce, olive, parnips, potatoes, pumpkin, red pepper, chards, spinashes, squash, rutabaga, sweet potato, taro, tomato, white turnip, yam, zucchini.

    Herbs:

    Basil, chili, coriander, ginger, lemongrass, marjolaine, minth, oregano, parsley, rosemary, thyme.

    Grains:

    Amaranth, buckwheat.

    Bread:

    100 % spelt flour, rice, oat, polenta.

    Others:

    Millet, arrow-root, psyllium, quinoa, sorgho, tapioca.

    Pastas and crackers made with these flours and grains.

    Milk:

    Lactose-free milk, rice milk, almond milk, hemp milk, oat milk, coconut milk.

    Cheese:

    Hard cheese (cheddar, mozzarella), brie, camembert.

    Yogourt:

    Lactose-free.

    Sweeteners:

    Sugar (saccharose)*, glucose, artificial sweeteners whose name doesn't end with "-ol".

    Honey substitutes:

    Brown sugar syrup*, maple syrup*, molasses.

    *To eat only in small quantities


    I still have a lot of digestive issues and am considering to try further experimentations with this FODMAP thing. I am not digesting fruits, I have some constipation and diarrhea at the same time often, flatulences. 23andme genetic testing says that I have a fructose malabsorption. http://www.allergymate.com/fructose-malabsorbtion/

    There are genetic testing that can give informations wether you have fructose malabsorption or not, has anyone tried it? What do you think about it?
    I know that Peat doesn't believe in our current paradigm about genetics but after all we have some inherited genetic trait that seem to not be able to change even with epigenetics?

    There are some blood tests to see food intolerances but they are very expensive and there is some controversy on their use. Has anyone tried it? What do you think about it?

    Here is one test for your gut flora: http://ubiome.com/

    Cites:

    1. Halmos EP, Power VA, Shepherd SJ, Gibson PR, Muir JG. A Diet Low in FODMAPs Reduces Symptoms of Irritable Bowel Syndrome. Gastroenterology. 2014 Jan;146(1):67-75.e5.

    2. Gibson PR, Shepherd SJ. Evidence-based dietary management of functional gastrointestinal symptoms: The FODMAP approach. J Gastroenterol Hepatol. 2010 Feb;25(2):252-8.

    3. Shepherd SJ, Parker FC, Muir JG, Gibson PR. Dietary triggers of abdominal symptoms in patients with irritable bowel syndrome: randomized placebo-controlled evidence. Clin Gastroenterol Hepatol. 2008 Jul;6(7):765-71.

    4. Barrett JS, Gearry RB, Muir JG, Irving PM, Rose R, Rosella O, Haines ML, Shepherd SJ, Gibson PR. Dietary poorly absorbed, short-chain carbohydrates increase delivery of water and fermentable substrates to the proximal colon. Aliment Pharmacol Ther. 2010 Apr;31(8):874-82.
     
  2. Giraffe

    Giraffe Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2015
    Messages:
    2,693
    You eat 400 g honey per day, right? Do you have issues with honey?

    I get bloated when I eat large amounts of (fresh) fruits, but I have no problems with 100 g of dried mangos in one sitting.
    75 g sugar? Yummy, I want more! ... Most fruits I like best combined with dairy products. It might be that it helps digestion.

    Facilitating Effect of Amino Acids on Fructose and Sorbitol Absorption in Children

    Before going full-FODMAP you might want to limit fructans. They are fiber that is fermented in the large intestine, thus feed bacteria there. Fructose is absorbed in the small intestine. Inflammation reduces the ability to absorb fructose. If (not absorbed) fructose enters the large intestine it will feed bacteria there.

    Isn't breath testing the standard?
     
  3. OP
    Parsifal

    Parsifal Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,073
    Honey is better tolerated than fruits but I still feel that it is not perfect. Thanks for your advices, will try it! What do you think about eating that much honey?

    I didn't now about breath testing, is it possible to get a device to test at home?
     
  4. Giraffe

    Giraffe Member

    Joined:
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    2,693
    Extremely little vitamins and potassium in relation to the high amount of sugar.

    Don't know what these devises are worth, or if you really need it.
    http://www.breathtests.com/breath-tests ... -test.html
     
  5. Giraffe

    Giraffe Member

    Joined:
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  6. Xisca

    Xisca Member

    Joined:
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    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Canary Spain
    About GAPS and relationship between nerves and intestine, think both ways:
    better nutrition betters nerves, and better nerves betters nutrition!

    You say you experiment both slow and fast guts work, which mean on the nerves side that you might have a sympathic and parasympathic activation that contradict each other. You can compare this change of speed with uncontroled heart beats variation for example.
     
  7. Waynish

    Waynish Member

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    Male
    Why is Garlic on the FODMAPS list while it is an antibiotic used for SIBO? What's the actual mechanism behind FODMAPS? It's confusing. It seems like "avoid FODMAPS foods" is short for "avoid foods which either cause bad bacteria to grow too quickly or die too quickly (due to the Herxheimer reaction). Thoughts?
     
  8. mostlylurking

    mostlylurking Member

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    Gender:
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    I had the Alcat test ("gold standard" for blood testing for food sensitivities") twice, about 10 years apart. The second time it showed that I was almost "universally reactive" and my "food list of safe foods to eat" was whittled down to just about nothing. I had leaky gut. I wound up with rheumatoid arthritis and was considering moving into a nursing home because I could no longer do simple things like brush my hair, brush my teeth, and pull up my pants.

    Then I found Ray Peat's website and started reading. I found an old fashioned endocrinologist (he's 80) who was willing to help me. He doubled my prescription for natural desiccated thyroid and changed the brand from Armour to Acella. I now take 180 mg thyroid daily. Within a few weeks I could eat a Peaty diet with no bad side effects. The rheumatoid arthritis symptoms went away. My gut healed. Dr. Peat saved my life.

    I believe the key is your metabolic function; mine was much improved via increased thyroid supplementation and a Peaty diet: no PUFA, no nuts, no seeds, no grains, lots of orange juice, lots of dairy, lots of gelatin, eggs, liver twice a month, ripe and cooked fruit, a little Hagen Daz ice cream, a little chocolate, lots of cooked mushrooms and raw carrot salad, cooked white potatoes, coconut oil, butter.

    Things aren't perfect; my hip joints hurt today and I'm going to take some aspirin and some niacinamide for it. I'm not sure what triggered the inflammation (I suspect the dinner roll - I cheated). This health thing is a continuing journey and I'm human and have failings.
     
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