It's About Time

[Kunder]

Actually Kang you could ease up on the shill factor. Selling a clearly commercial for profit product (nothing wrong with that) with a subtext of some charity or philantrophy just doesn't sound good. Even if it's true, it's just not that believable and thus achieves the opposite.

The photo of the multiple cups as the only alternative to your capsules is a cheesy infomercial approach. I use individual aminos (bcaa-taurine-glycine-betaalanin-lysine-threonine) and it takes me less than a minute, two or three times a day, to put a scoop of each into my OJ. Less than a minute!

As far as "prefectly measured" goes, it's true i dont mess around with it too much, but frankly I would not put too much faith in any industrially produced capsules containing as many as 9 aminos actually containing them in the declared ratio. Correct me if Im wrong, but these powders are pressumably blended in one giant blender before the capsules are filled, right? In which case the odds of getting each capsule with the same amino ratio as the overall ratio of the powders in the blender, is close to nil. It is just not technically possible to achieve that. As a result it is reasonable to assume that many if not most of the capsules have ratios all over the place, and it is likely many may contain no more than a single amino acid as a result. The capsule is just way too small to be able to capture the ratio of the powders in the blender.

This is not to sound negative. If you can prove me wrong I'll stand corrected, but regardless it is perfectly cool you found a market for your idea and i wish you well.

 

[goodandevil]

Have you ever listened to ray's interviews? His opposition to isolated, synthetic protein supplementation is one of the the things he most frequently reiterates. Every "enzymatically" produced amino acid comes from a different synthetic chemical, so that's quite a list of synthetix reagents by the time you add the list together, correct me if I'm wrong.

https://i.imgur.com/pWCRLnr.png
https://i.imgur.com/FwDoDqM.png

I asked ray once about supposedly "natural" vitamin c, because it was produced by fermentation. He sent me the synthetic process and it involved many toxic chemicals.

 

[Tzheng2012]

I was going to get this but decided to just make my own. I used nutra bio for most and pure bulk for the rest. Around 180$ for 5lbs, couldve kept it around 100$ if i only used pure bulk but since i knew about rays warning on isolated aminos and purity issues i tried to use as much nutra bio as possible even though the quality is probably the same, just for peace of mind.

 

[Terma]

1. This is anecdotal but from our personal use and the group of beta testers we had, all gave said the same thing. The difference between using this ratio in mixed powdered vs just food was very noticeable but the difference from mixing powders to using perfectly measured caps was “night and day”. Here attached is a picture of the amount of work that goes into making up a weeks supply of aminos from powders and caps. Not very handy, powder is exposed to a lot more air - your concern of oxidization, and think of what traveling with this would be like. Its not user friendly, travel friendly (think TSA or customs), and its a pain in the ****.
2. Health Canada says 3 years if kept our of direct sunlight and in a cool dry place.
3. As I mentioned before to @Zpol, I dont see how. Unlike powders in bags or bottles each capsule is individually sealed and unlike the last scoop of powder in you jar they should be as fresh as the day they were blended or nearly so.
   
4. Yes, as far as I know. All the big boys (like Nutribio) refused to make it for us or to sell to market because of the way the price doubles from manufacture to wholesaler, and again from wholesaler to retailer. Our big bottle would be selling for $300-400 if they made it.

Thanks, can't say Health Canada inspires much confidence (much the opposite) but until you can dig more/time that's a reasonable answer. For the second question (your 3.), it would be good to assume the worst possible case, e.g. as if you packaged in one huge container or a client opened them all early, exposed to air for a little while e.g. user error, closed again and left standing (even though I know you have multiple containers).

 

[Kang]

As far as "prefectly measured" goes, it's true i dont mess around with it too much, but frankly I would not put too much faith in any industrially produced capsules containing as many as 9 aminos actually containing them in the declared ratio. Correct me if Im wrong, but these powders are pressumably blended in one giant blender before the capsules are filled, right? In which case the odds of getting each capsule with the same amino ratio as the overall ratio of the powders in the blender, is close to nil. It is just not technically possible to achieve that. As a result it is reasonable to assume that many if not most of the capsules have ratios all over the place, and it is likely many may contain no more than a single amino acid as a result. The capsule is just way too small to be able to capture the ratio of the powders in the blender.

This is not to sound negative. If you can prove me wrong I'll stand corrected, but regardless it is perfectly cool you found a market for your idea and i wish you well.

I can understand your skepticism so I am glad to offer as evidence the last two CofA which are a requirement of maintaining our license with Health Canada, basically its potency testing. This isn't my opinion this a measurement, and I sincerely doubt you could get that level of precision scooping into you OJ. But of course I may be wrong, and whether you find the anecdotal evidence valuable or not, the people that have been using this product the longest have found the capsule delivery with its precise measurements to be far superior to mixing on the fly. Never mind the convenience and as I stated earlier if you are concerned about oxidation there is no way that pouches and bottles of aminos will degrade less than something in a capsule that is also in a bottle.

Now I'm curious @Kunder do you consider this to be sufficient evidence?

 

[Kang]

Actually Kang you could ease up on the shill factor. Selling a clearly commercial for profit product (nothing wrong with that) with a subtext of some charity or philantrophy just doesn't sound good. Even if it's true, it's just not that believable and thus achieves the opposite.

The photo of the multiple cups as the only alternative to your capsules is a cheesy infomercial approach. I use individual aminos (bcaa-taurine-glycine-betaalanin-lysine-threonine) and it takes me less than a minute, two or three times a day, to put a scoop of each into my OJ. Less than a minute!

@Kunder I am not trying to be a shill and if you do not want to purchase that is fine but bear in mind that what appeals to one may not appeal to another. No one is forcing you to read our posts or participate in these threads.

As to whether you believe our story or not is immaterial, it is the truth and we will stick to it in a world filled with bull**** and con-artists. We know what we have done and why.

As to the cups, its amazing how you see that. I used the cups for my convenience for a week at a time. It was only after a friend suggest I take a photo that I did. I have no background in marketing or advertising, I suck at instagram and FB ads, and I most definitely suck at marketing but I am trying to learn. Again you see what we do through your lens of experience and others through theirs. We take actions, rightly or wrongly based on our own experience too. All of us make mistakes and have successes.

 

[Kang]

Have you ever listened to ray's interviews? His opposition to isolated, synthetic protein supplementation is one of the the things he most frequently reiterates. Every "enzymatically" produced amino acid comes from a different synthetic chemical, so that's quite a list of synthetix reagents by the time you add the list together, correct me if I'm wrong.

https://i.imgur.com/pWCRLnr.png
https://i.imgur.com/FwDoDqM.png

I asked ray once about supposedly "natural" vitamin c, because it was produced by fermentation. He sent me the synthetic process and it involved many toxic chemicals.

I still don't have an answer from you or your negative attacks or implications, why is that? Just drop a hand grenade and walk off?

Did you read the words in the first links? "Typical, usually..." those two words are kind of important.

In the second you share that some amino acids were made and then not made - relevance?

Vitamin C - is a completely difference process. Are you chemist? What is the link? Is it because you hear fermentation that you think thats enough? Seriously where is your evidence?

 

[Kang]

I was going to get this but decided to just make my own. I used nutra bio for most and pure bulk for the rest. Around 180$ for 5lbs, couldve kept it around 100$ if i only used pure bulk but since i knew about rays warning on isolated aminos and purity issues i tried to use as much nutra bio as possible even though the quality is probably the same, just for peace of mind.

Glad to hear it @Tzheng2012 how has it worked out for you?

When we started our beta test we used exclusively Nutribio except for one amino acid. I couldn't get a CoA from them at the time, were you able? They do have a great reputation though. Our cost was $173 USD for a months supply, which should have been about 2.2 lbs or so.

 

[Kang]

Thanks, can't say Health Canada inspires much confidence (much the opposite) but until you can dig more/time that's a reasonable answer. For the second question (your 3.), it would be good to assume the worst possible case, e.g. as if you packaged in one huge container or a client opened them all early, exposed to air for a little while e.g. user error, closed again and left standing (even though I know you have multiple containers).

I may not be a big fan of the Health Canada red tape but they don't hand out NPN's without checking. The standard of control by Health Canada versus US food and drug is night and day. Everything that goes into our product is twice tested, once at source, then again when we accept it, plus a potency test after final blend. Along with heavy metals and microbial testing. We are considering more testing but all of that means less to do anything else to improve the product or R&D something new.

As for the caps, remember even if you spilled them all out or left the bottle open they are still sealed. The biggest issue with the caps (vegetable gelatine) is moisture, worse if you have moisture and heat. Compare our product to any other cap or worse for them tablets... yikes.

 

[Terma]

I may not be a big fan of the Health Canada red tape but they don't hand out NPN's without checking. The standard of control by Health Canada versus US food and drug is night and day. Everything that goes into our product is twice tested, once at source, then again when we accept it, plus a potency test after final blend. Along with heavy metals and microbial testing. We are considering more testing but all of that means less to do anything else to improve the product or R&D something new.

As for the caps, remember even if you spilled them all out or left the bottle open they are still sealed. The biggest issue with the caps (vegetable gelatine) is moisture, worse if you have moisture and heat. Compare our product to any other cap or worse for them tablets... yikes.

Like you said I've bought I'm fairly sure more supplements than anyone on this forum and capsules vary and they're no guarantee. Admittedly I just assumed there are no studies on this topic so didn't even look.

I can't be too critical, I share all the theoretical concerns above, but for my life/plans I have to manage with powders and they're a problem and in relative terms per-capsuled product is almost certainly better. The advantage of buying individual is controlling proportions, meaning I could only ever use your product for part of the amino requirements.

Yeah over a couple years, lab tests are what would solidify this. A lot more than a Health Canada stamp. On rpf.com anyway.

 

[goodandevil]

I still don't have an answer from you or your negative attacks or implications, why is that? Just drop a hand grenade and walk off?

Did you read the words in the first links? "Typical, usually..." those two words are kind of important.

In the second you share that some amino acids were made and then not made - relevance?

Vitamin C - is a completely difference process. Are you chemist? What is the link? Is it because you hear fermentation that you think thats enough? Seriously where is your evidence?

Yes, I'm a chemist, and others on here are chemists as well @Travis.

The FAQ on your website says: "
Is Amino Pro™ a natural product?
Yes, Amino Pro™ is a 100% natural product."

But that is not true.

Your supposed disdain for marketing is belied by your website and your previous website for "Z-Health Performance Systems". Both of your websites are quite polished and impressive. I especially like this quote: "More isn't always better, better is better". Bravo.

I'm not impressed with your 15 perfect reviews on facebook. If you want to provide the synthetic routes for your product, myself and other chemists on here would be happy to examine it. I think if you want to use ray's name and his principles you should rely more on rational argument and less on emotion. We're not the average proles on this forum and there's a reason that Ray had been reapetedly voiced his oppositiom to synthetic amino acids.

 

[Kang]

Like you said I've bought I'm fairly sure more supplements than anyone on this forum and capsules vary and they're no guarantee. Admittedly I just assumed there are no studies on this topic so didn't even look.

I can't be too critical, I share all the theoretical concerns above, but for my life/plans I have to manage with powders and they're a problem and in relative terms per-capsuled product is almost certainly better. The advantage of buying individual is controlling proportions, meaning I could only ever use your product for part of the amino requirements.

Yeah over a couple years, lab tests are what would solidify this. A lot more than a Health Canada stamp. On rpf.com anyway.

Absolutely and it seems you have your situation well in hand. There is no single product for everyone, all the time and under every circumstance. Thank you for sharing a part of your story. I would certainly like to hear more about how you are using amino acids if you cared to share more?

 

[Kang]

Yes, I'm a chemist, and others on here are chemists as well @Travis.

The FAQ on your website says: "
Is Amino Pro™ a natural product?
Yes, Amino Pro™ is a 100% natural product."

But that is not true.

Your supposed disdain for marketing is belied by your website and your previous website for "Z-Health Performance Systems". Both of your websites are quite polished and impressive. I especially like this quote: "More isn't always better, better is better". Bravo.

I'm not impressed with your 15 perfect reviews on facebook. If you want to provide the synthetic routes for your product, myself and other chemists on here would be happy to examine it. I think if you want to use ray's name and his principles you should rely more on rational argument and less on emotion. We're not the average proles on this forum and there's a reason that Ray had been reapetedly voiced his oppositiom to synthetic amino acids.

Well Chemist why haven't you answer my previous questions along with your previous unfounded attacks? and then why don't you define natural for me? Because our product is most assuredly natural.
As for our reviews, have you ever looked at how few people lead a review even when immensely satisfied with a product? The statistics are sobering.
And for my previous website it is polished, its for coaching business and I paid $3000 for it so it should be. Absolutely a waste of money though, I don't think it brought in a single client. Again I know very little about marketing which seems to be your biggest pet peeve.

As for supplying you anything I don't see the point, this conversation is a monologue of you attacking me and never being held accountable for anything you say. I have provided CoA's for both batches of product - wow we are so big we've only made TWO batches. We are just making a killing here on our own community. You really are an ****.

I am sure you are not a prole, although it does rhyme with Troll... which seems more apt. How does it feel to never have to support or back up any aspersion you throw on others? How would you like it if someone implied you were a thief or worse on a forum without any evidence?

 

[Terma]

Absolutely and it seems you have your situation well in hand. There is no single product for everyone, all the time and under every circumstance. Thank you for sharing a part of your story. I would certainly like to hear more about how you are using amino acids if you cared to share more?

I do my own thing and reading but it comes down to a variant of this: Amino Acid Supplementation For People With Poor Digestion (no TRP/MET)
e.g. always more lysine and less glycine, 1:1 would ruin my life

 

[Kunder]

@Kang
Regarding the CofA..thumbs up. I cannot imagine the type of mixing that goes on with the aminos to achieve those numbers, I would think the ratios are impossible to attain without each capsule’s content being blended individually (unrealistic of course). The skeptic in me is not completely convinced but you have certainly disarmed my argument quite well, and this is great for your customers to see. Once again, best wishes.

 

[Kang]

@Kang
Regarding the CofA..thumbs up. I cannot imagine the type of mixing that goes on with the aminos to achieve those numbers, I would think the ratios are impossible to attain without each capsule’s content being blended individually (unrealistic of course). The skeptic in me is not completely convinced but you have certainly disarmed my argument quite well, and this is great for your customers to see. Once again, best wishes.

Thank you @Kunder I was beginning to think a dialogue here would elude me. I appreciate your comment and I mean it when I say we are open to hearing how to improve our product, our posts and certainly our marketing.

 

[Terma]

@Kang I tried your product and felt it was relatively (as far as perceptibly goes) fine quality.

The main problem is I can only take a couple capsules per day. In my case the leucine becomes limiting and it's the highest amino in the product. Also, obviously beta-alanine gets annoying.

What this really needs is a line of 3-4 variants with different proportions of aminos, so people pick an amino profile closer to their needs and therefore consume more.

Or even just to experiment. You could provide a sample pack with each of the variants for people to try out - e.g. Advanced Racetam Sample Pack. If people used that wisely they could even save money in experimentation.

Of course the trouble is picking the right sets of profiles, but you can tweak that over time.

 

[lollipop]

What this really needs is a line of 3-4 variants with different proportions of aminos, so people pick an amino profile closer to their needs and therefore consume more.

Good idea.

 

[Terma]

:)

You could have them marketed for specific purposes, e.g. a nootropic combo with more phenylalanine, a fitness-guy one with more BCAA and beta-alanine (still need enough phenylalanine though), a Linus Pauling-esque cardiovascular formula with more proline/lysine/taurine, a sleep-promoting formula with more glycine [edit: probably not lysine*], etc. I'm sure people could come up with more. Time-of-day or specific-purpose tailoring (it's not necessarily ideal for me personally either, but at least practical/realistic).

* Uh, scratch the lysine for sleep. It can help some people but I was thinking about anxiety. You'd want to stick to things you can back up with studies.

 

[Kang]

@Kang I tried your product and felt it was relatively (as far as perceptibly goes) fine quality.

The main problem is I can only take a couple capsules per day. In my case the leucine becomes limiting and it's the highest amino in the product. Also, obviously beta-alanine gets annoying.

What this really needs is a line of 3-4 variants with different proportions of aminos, so people pick an amino profile closer to their needs and therefore consume more.

Or even just to experiment. You could provide a sample pack with each of the variants for people to try out - e.g. Advanced Racetam Sample Pack. If people used that wisely they could even save money in experimentation.

Of course the trouble is picking the right sets of profiles, but you can tweak that over time.

I like that idea. Let me look into it. The main challenge is it’s taken 16 months plus the initial year to get to market come close to a break even proposition on the capital never mind time. But more importantly I need to look into how changing the ration would affect the current benefits.

As for the Beta Alanine the effect went away for me but I was using 60 caps per day for two months.