How To Revert Hypervitaminosis A?

[jitsmonkey]

Thus the panic spreads...

+1

 

[JerkyPerky]

You're changing too much at a time in my opinion. How on earth are you going to find a comfortable and healthy status quo while you're micromanaging and guessworking your diet to a high degree.

Did you eat the broccoli and eggs because you enjoyed them? If you did then I promise they were doing you some good. Cod is an okay source of iodine but often times you need more. There is sometimes a higher iodine need be it due to infection or chlorine exposure during a time of undereating or low iodine intake.

All I can share are my own experiences which can succinctly be put in two points:

1. Your dietary theorising and fear based approach almost always leads to deeper metabolic problems. Even if short term symptomatic relief is found. Cravings and intuition with some minimal supplementation will get you far closer to something akin to sustainable health.

2. For me, iodine needs are occasionally higher (I'm guessing because of periods of undereating combined with tons of chlorinated water... Years of this). Your diet right now is not sustainable. Greens and vitamin A mean I sometimes need more iodine. Organic dairy is lower in iodine, also so that might be a factor.
If you do nothing else then just remove the broccoli for a week and eat how you used to!! I'm sure you'll feel better.

This forum is full of sick and orthorexic people. Don't forget that. It does not discount their humanity and intelligence but it certainly skews the view of what's healthy with regard to diet and lifestyle - sickness aligns to a fear based approach sadly. Health does not.

Hi again.

It's very difficult to steer away from a fear-based approach right now. My body is failing me and if I put the wrong things in, it will further deteriorate.

I truly believe that my elimination-based approach is the best thing I can do right now.

If I got to eat whatever I wanted, I'd for example keep eating lots and lots of eggs, but that would kill me. Just eating four(4) eggs made the pain in my side much, much worse when wakening up the next morning.

A month ago, I went in for an ultrasound and they did not find any scarring, portal hypertension or signs of fatty liver. This gives me hope that I can get back to normal without any permanent damage. I just have to take this step-by-step. First thing I'm trying is eliminating vitamin A, and if that doesn't work..I don't rly know.

 

[InChristAlone]

Hi again.

It's very difficult to steer away from a fear-based approach right now. My body is failing me and if I put the wrong things in, it will further deteriorate.

I truly believe that my elimination-based approach is the best thing I can do right now.

If I got to eat whatever I wanted, I'd for example keep eating lots and lots of eggs, but that would kill me. Just eating four(4) eggs made the pain in my side much, much worse when wakening up the next morning.

A month ago, I went in for an ultrasound and they did not find any scarring, portal hypertension or signs of fatty liver. This gives me hope that I can get back to normal without any permanent damage. I just have to take this step-by-step. First thing I'm trying is eliminating vitamin A, and if that doesn't work..I don't rly know.

It may not be one nutrient causing this. It may be food allergies. Do you know how to muscle test yourself? It isn't as accurate as someone testing you but can help. Our brains can sometimes get in the way but the body knows what it doesn't like and will tell you if you ask it properly.

 

[Marshl1]

Hi again.

It's very difficult to steer away from a fear-based approach right now. My body is failing me and if I put the wrong things in, it will further deteriorate.

I truly believe that my elimination-based approach is the best thing I can do right now.

If I got to eat whatever I wanted, I'd for example keep eating lots and lots of eggs, but that would kill me. Just eating four(4) eggs made the pain in my side much, much worse when wakening up the next morning.

A month ago, I went in for an ultrasound and they did not find any scarring, portal hypertension or signs of fatty liver. This gives me hope that I can get back to normal without any permanent damage. I just have to take this step-by-step. First thing I'm trying is eliminating vitamin A, and if that doesn't work..I don't rly know.

Mate, I definitely think you are doing the right thing trying low vitamin A. Check out the posts by Franko on the topic on this forum. Also take a look at the ebook Poisoning for profits by Grant Generaux. It's being discussed a lot at the moment and there are a lot of doubters here which is to be expected. With your dietary history and the fact that you supplemented with Vitamin A I would say it should definitely be the first thing you try. Isn't it true that high vitamin a consumption is associated with osteoporosis in Scandinavia? I read that the milk in Sweden is fortified with vitamin A? I wouldn't be drinking that.

Excessive dietary intake of vitamin A is associated with reduced bone mineral density and increased risk for hip fracture. - PubMed - NCBI
This is interesting

Anyway I took Accurane which is basically megadosing retinol and it's given me hell for the last 5 years. Zero vitamin A diet is giving me hope

Best wishes
Lee

 

[Blossom]

The attempt to steer a person can make it hard for them to move, because it inactivates their own guidance system. - Ray Peat

Sometimes you just have to go with what resonates with you as the most likely issue. The worst thing that can happen is that you might possibly end up being wrong but at least you are being true to yourself. After all you know yourself better than anyone else. I'm not quite sure why it seems so far fetched that some of us might have gone overboard on 'vitamin A'?

 

[Such_Saturation]

Hi again.

It's very difficult to steer away from a fear-based approach right now. My body is failing me and if I put the wrong things in, it will further deteriorate.

I truly believe that my elimination-based approach is the best thing I can do right now.

If I got to eat whatever I wanted, I'd for example keep eating lots and lots of eggs, but that would kill me. Just eating four(4) eggs made the pain in my side much, much worse when wakening up the next morning.

A month ago, I went in for an ultrasound and they did not find any scarring, portal hypertension or signs of fatty liver. This gives me hope that I can get back to normal without any permanent damage. I just have to take this step-by-step. First thing I'm trying is eliminating vitamin A, and if that doesn't work..I don't rly know.

Get a duodenoscopy man. This is reckless.

 

[raypeatclips]

Get a duodenoscopy man. This is reckless.

Sensible advice +1

 

[sunraiser]

Hi again.

It's very difficult to steer away from a fear-based approach right now. My body is failing me and if I put the wrong things in, it will further deteriorate.

I truly believe that my elimination-based approach is the best thing I can do right now.

If I got to eat whatever I wanted, I'd for example keep eating lots and lots of eggs, but that would kill me. Just eating four(4) eggs made the pain in my side much, much worse when wakening up the next morning.

A month ago, I went in for an ultrasound and they did not find any scarring, portal hypertension or signs of fatty liver. This gives me hope that I can get back to normal without any permanent damage. I just have to take this step-by-step. First thing I'm trying is eliminating vitamin A, and if that doesn't work..I don't rly know.

What you're mentioning could just be impaired fat digestion or just impaired digestion in general.

Many people have issues with egg whites. See if you get the same issue with yolks.

I was on roaccutane for 6 months and didn't ever have to go on a vitamin A avoidance diet.

It's a missing rate limiting cofactor, not vitamin A, i promise.

If your natural cravings lead you to avoid vitamin A that's fine, but don't avoid foods you crave and enjoy because of this. I see the attitude you currently have absolutely ruin people so often. Myseld included!

Do you ever have dry or watery eyes?

Do you have the little half moons on your finger nails?

 

[JerkyPerky]

What you're mentioning could just be impaired fat digestion or just impaired digestion in general.

Many people have issues with egg whites. See if you get the same issue with yolks.

I was on roaccutane for 6 months and didn't ever have to go on a vitamin A avoidance diet.

It's a missing rate limiting cofactor, not vitamin A, i promise.

If your natural cravings lead you to avoid vitamin A that's fine, but don't avoid foods you crave and enjoy because of this. I see the attitude you currently have absolutely ruin people so often. Myseld included!

Do you ever have dry or watery eyes?

Do you have the little half moons on your finger nails?

Dry eyes, yup. I've added some nail pics for you. :p Not sure what they tell you though, I suppose my toenails always are kind of light in color. Can't find any half moons on my finger-nails, what's that mean?

 

[JerkyPerky]

!!!
I might have made a major discovery for my case.

The only two things I've been supplementing non-stop, consistently ever since beginning my "fitness-oriented lifestyle" 8-10 years ago as a teenager, is fish oil Omega-3 capsules and zinc. This low clearance rate of Vitamin A is unnatural and either of these is clearly causing these problems unless there's a genetic component. My body should be able to fkin tolerate a couple of eggs without aching.

I've made sure to take in moderate amounts of omega-3's for its supposed benefits for brain, muscle and cardiovascular health. Either Omega-3 or the concomitant vitamin E seems to worsen the mobility of hepatic retinyl esters; zinc on the other hand, improves it.

38% reduction in RBP over 10 weeks of supplementation with Omega-3+Vitamin E, in daily dosages similar to mine - 2080 mg (EPA+DHA) vs my 2000 mg(EPA+DHA).

28.54±1.16 down to 17.69±0.98 Retinol-binding protein 4 (μg/ml)
Effect of Omega-3 Supplementation on Lipocalin 2 and Retinol-Binding Protein 4 in Type 2 Diabetic Patients

RBP is the enzyme that mobilizes stored hepatic retinyl esters to the bloodstream.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/8c90/2edfc2ce3269949db59de3e1db252128e0bd.pdf
"Previous studies demonstrated that with the elevation of dietary vitamin E (0–1,000 IU/kg of diet) in laying hens, the level of vitamin A in liver significantly increased 16.3-folds, while it decreased by 27.4% in yolk and remained unchanged in plasma (Sklan, 1983; Sünder et al., 1999; Sünder and Flachowsky, 2001). Napoli et al. (1984) pointed out that 100 μM tocopherol inhibited retinol hydrolase activity by about 50% in rat liver. This may be one reason why dietary vitamin E increased vitamin A in mammalian liver. "


I'm seizing the supplementation of fish oil Omega-3:s. An almost 40 % reduction in the enzyme that mobilizes liver retinol in just 10 weeks leads me to wonder what would happen in ~500 weeks.

This is likely a factor in my horrible clearance rate of vitamin A.

 

[Richiebogie]

Ray Peat dislikes fish oil because of the reactive PUFA, so stopping the supplementation of that would be one of the top recommendations on this site.

Ray Peat is not a fan of beta carotene or lots of eggs either, so cutting down on broccoli, sweet potato and eggs is fine too.

Unlike Sunraiser, I'm not sure we can trust our cravings. The addict can crave toxins when he first reduces the dose.

Maybe take more notice if you crave something you haven't had for a few months...

The chronometer attachment on the previous page has 100% RDA vitamin A at 3000 IU.

Nutritiondata currently has 100% RDA vitamin A at 5000 IU!

 

[postman]

You're changing too much at a time in my opinion. How on earth are you going to find a comfortable and healthy status quo while you're micromanaging and guessworking your diet to a high degree.

Did you eat the broccoli and eggs because you enjoyed them? If you did then I promise they were doing you some good. Cod is an okay source of iodine but often times you need more. There is sometimes a higher iodine need be it due to infection or chlorine exposure during a time of undereating or low iodine intake.

All I can share are my own experiences which can succinctly be put in two points:

1. Your dietary theorising and fear based approach almost always leads to deeper metabolic problems. Even if short term symptomatic relief is found. Cravings and intuition with some minimal supplementation will get you far closer to something akin to sustainable health.

2. For me, iodine needs are occasionally higher (I'm guessing because of periods of undereating combined with tons of chlorinated water... Years of this). Your diet right now is not sustainable. Greens and vitamin A mean I sometimes need more iodine. Organic dairy is lower in iodine, also so that might be a factor.
If you do nothing else then just remove the broccoli for a week and eat how you used to!! I'm sure you'll feel better.

This forum is full of sick and orthorexic people. Don't forget that. It does not discount their humanity and intelligence but it certainly skews the view of what's healthy with regard to diet and lifestyle - sickness aligns to a fear based approach sadly. Health does not.

Stupid advice like this decrying restrictive dieting almost always comes from people who have never had to deal with debilitating illness. It is very ironic too because you're giving very specific advice in this thread.

 

[JerkyPerky]

Ray Peat dislikes fish oil because of the reactive PUFA, so stopping the supplementation of that would be one of the top recommendations on this site.

Ray Peat is not a fan of beta carotene or lots of eggs either, so cutting down on broccoli, sweet potato and eggs is fine too.

Unlike Sunraiser, I'm not sure we can trust our cravings. The addict can crave toxins when he first reduces the dose.

Maybe take more notice if you crave something you haven't had for a few months...

The chronometer attachment on the previous page has 100% RDA vitamin A at 3000 IU.

Nutritiondata currently has 100% RDA vitamin A at 5000 IU!

Stupid advice like this decrying restrictive dieting almost always comes from people who have never had to deal with debilitating illness. It is very ironic too because you're giving very specific advice in this thread.

Hey guys, just an update:

First a note on why I'm doing all this "experimenting" at all. I live in Sweden where health-care is "free" and have been appointed a general physician that's already taken about 20 blood samples, gotten' me an ultrasound and still can't figure out what the problem is.
The latest is that he wants me to wait a couple of weeks and then retake some blood tests - the lovely wait-and-see approach, after which he probably will have to remitt(?) me to a hepatologist or something.

It's quite clear to me that an accumulation of vitamin A is the issue. My state is so bad that I can clearly gauge what foods are bad for me by the pain in my upper right quadrant and black spots appearing on my tongue due to thrombocytopenia.

Protein- and/or fat-heavy meals are horrible. That could easily explain the problem with the eggs, but not why sweet potatoes and spinach have the same effect. That's why I believe vitamin A is the issue.

So my liver is inflamed and vitamin A has accumulated. I've had to deal with this sh*t for so long that I'd even agree to a biopsy if the doc asked for it.


The major theory I have is that the 10 year long supplementation of zinc coupled with low intake + impaired absorption of copper&iron has made me iron-deficient and lowered my liver's ability to process vitamin A, leading it to accumulate over time.

The fact that zinc and iron are antagonistic in absorption, share the same metal-transporter, and that zinc supplementation can cause iron-deficiency anemia - if you're not zinc-deficient, seems well-estabilished.

"use of a modest zinc supplement improves zinc indices, but also appears to induce a cellular iron deficiency and, possibly, further reduce iron status."
Supplemental zinc lowers measures of iron status in young women with low iron reserves. - PubMed - NCBI

"a marked decrease in serum Fe concentrations was seen in rats fed with the high Zn diet relative to rats fed with the standard diet"
Long-term intake of a high zinc diet causes iron deficiency anemia accompanied by reticulocytosis and extra-medullary erythropoiesis - ScienceDirect


*I've always had coffee/tea with my meals, both of which impair iron absorption.
Swedish peeps love their coffee

*My diet has always been rich in dairy - milk/yoghurt/quark/cottage cheese, which impairs iron absorption.

*Eggs contain phosvitin, and a single egg can reduce iron absorption by up to 28%

My love intake of iron+copper has mostly been in forms with lots of phytates, e.g. oats and the like, never eaten a lot of meat regularly.


Several lines of evidence indicate that vitamin A metabolism is altered in situations of iron deficiency, characterized by low serum retinol concentrations and increased hepatic retinyl ester or retinol stores. These changes probably result from a reduction in the activity of retinyl ester hydrolases, with a consequent decrease in vitamin A mobilization, or from an increase in retinol sequestration to the liver
https://sci-hub.tw/https://academic...66/3/141/24092636/nutritionreviews66-0141.pdf


The boring-**** diet I'm eating at the moment keeps the pain and black dots on the tongue away if I stay below ~100 g protein/day. It's not improving, but not getting worse.

I'll ask the doc for more expansive testing on my iron-status with the next blood tests to test my theory.



New pic: more black dots from trying to add spinach and sweet potatoes back in.
Liver stress--> lower hepatic productions of protein such as thrombopoietin which creates blood platelets and ceruloplasmin which carries iron throughout the body.

 

[GreenEyedBlonde]

How long does it take to recover from hypervitaminosis A? I used Retin A 0.1% daily for 15 years. Never realized that my symptoms could possibly been from vitamin A toxicity. I have not used the product for 4 months because I ran out and never refilled it.

 

[Travis]

I've come to the conclusion that I'm suffering from hypervitaminosis A, given my reaction to foodstuffs such as liver, eggs, sweet potatoes, spinach, etc. as well as elevated ALT. Eating any of these foods or others with high amounts of any sort of vitamin A worsens my symptoms. It's come to the point where I can't sleep on my left side as my lower-right quadrant is too tight and makes breathing difficult.

What are the nutrients necessary to mobilize retinol from liver tissue?

From what I've gathered, zinc is THE major component to consider, given that it increases the activity of RBP - retinol-binding-protein. If one were to have both supplemental zinc and copper in supply, what amounts and ratio ought to be used?

Are there any other minerals or vitamins to keep track of to drive out all of the excess retinyl esters making my life hell???

Acetobacter species found in unpasteurized vinegar have alcohol dehydrogenase, an enzyme that helps convert ethanol into acetic acid. I think this could help, if only to lower the alcohols in the intestine. Alcohol dehydrogenase is not specific to ethanol and will also oxidize other alcohols—i.e. tryptophol, retinol—into their corresponding aldehydes. This enzyme is bidirectional, like 11β-hydroxysterol dehydrogenase, so under a high NADH/NAD⁺ ratio it will create alcohols from aldehydes; this enzyme can run both ways. This is why too much ethanol increases tryptophol synthesis; it does so by induction, increasing the alcohol/aldehyde ratio by first modifying the NADH/NAD⁺ ratio. Hypervitaminosis A lowers tolerance to ethanol, and some even believe fetal alcohol syndrome is retinol-mediated.

Duester, Gregg. "A hypothetical mechanism for fetal alcohol syndrome involving ethanol inhibition of retinoic acid synthesis at the alcohol dehydrogenase step." Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research (1991)​

I think it has more to do with 5-methoxytryptophol, yet this is interesting regardless. Obviously, the best you can do is avoid all forms of retinol and ethanol until liver stores decline. Carotenes should be much safer here because their cleavage into retinol is reverse-regulated by retinoic acid.

Bachmann, Heinrich. "Feedback regulation of β, β-carotene 15, 15′-monooxygenase by retinoic acid in rats and chickens." The Journal of nutrition (2002)​

This implies that the cleavage of β-carotene...

β-carotene ⟶ retinol + retinal ​

...in your body should be low because you are presumed sufficient in retinoic acid, a vitamin–hormone that reliably down-regulates carotene monooxygenase nuclear receptor RARα in rats and chickens.

 

[LUH 3417]

Stay away from vitamin E supplementation.

Other than that, Bisdichloroacetyldiamines

Why stay away from Vit e supplements?

 

[Richiebogie]

How long does it take to recover from hypervitaminosis A? I used Retin A 0.1% daily for 15 years. Never realized that my symptoms could possibly been from vitamin A toxicity. I have not used the product for 4 months because I ran out and never refilled it.

What are your symptoms, Albina?

 

[GreenEyedBlonde]

What are your symptoms, Albina?

Dry, rough skin. Pressure in head with tinnitus. Peeling/cracked nails. Hair loss. I realize these are symptoms that could be associated with other conditions but this thread made me think of all those years of Retin A use. I will cut back on foods high in A or carotene. Does it take months or years to deplete your body from excess?

 

[Richiebogie]

Hi @Albina,

Grant Genereux thinks that children get eczema when their livers fill up with retinol. He theorises their symptoms recede as their livers grow during puberty! Old people may also get eczema as their livers fill up.

Grant managed to get rid of his eczema and depression by strictly eating zero vitamin A. He doesn't know of any shortcuts but does know of one eczema sufferer who healed herself via coffee enemas. Perhaps these prompt the liver to dump retinol?

If you want to try this, perhaps start with a very weak coffee solution.

COFFEE ENEMA INSTRUCTIONS | Moses Nutrition

The wikipedia article on vitamin A lists the highest sources. Cod Liver Oil is the worst. I think Peat blames the dog cancer effects of Cod Liver Oil on PUFA! Could he be looking at the wrong poison?

Bird and beef liver are high but you don't (normally) eat huge quantities of these!

Supplements, sunscreens and skin medicines are high!

Sweet potatoes, spinach, kale, carrots and pumpkin are high, but absorption may be less if eaten without butter or other fats!

I have started taking my OJ, banana and mango in the morning and delaying fats until later in the day!

I would need to drop OJ, mango, cantaloupe and papaya altogether to test a low vitamin A diet properly!

 

[Travis]

Hi @Albina,
The wikipedia article on vitamin A lists the highest sources. Cod Liver Oil is the worst. I think Peat blames the dog cancer effects of Cod Liver Oil on PUFA! Could he be looking at the wrong poison?

Could be, and I think retinol best explains the slight increase in cancer observed in prospective β-carotene trials.

But Ray Peat is quite partial to that particular type of poison, even to the point of claiming he'd regularly taken liver-damaging-sized doses with excellent results. On this website alone, I talked to three people that had got hypervitaminosis A.