How To Revert Hypervitaminosis A?

[Amazoniac]

Do you get enough magnesium, glycine and manganese?

 

[Amazoniac]

Dairy combined with vit D can be brutal on magnesium.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/glycine-protects-from-iron-toxicity-in-the-liver.13217/
Manganese is often neglected, but it's a major protector against mitochondrial stress.

What about vit C?

I would consider discontinuing all fat-soluble vitamins for now, especially A and D.

 

[GreenEyedBlonde]

I realized I was also eating many fruits & veg high in A and most of the veggies with ghee. Also using 2-3 drops of estroban/day. I will stop this too. I take one doctors best mag glycinate/day and no other oral supplements other than an occasional soup- of multi B. Additionally I have Hashimoto’s thyroiditis and although tsh <0.1 I am symptomatic probably due to inadequate conversion of T4. I am sure this did not help with the release of excess vitamin A. Can’t use collagen due to histamine problems. I’m just hoping I didn’t do any permanent damage to my liver. I am due for labs and will hv liver enzymes checked. Is there anything else I should have tested?

 

[GreenEyedBlonde]

Could be, and I think retinol best explains the slight increase in cancer observed in prospective β-carotene trials.

But Ray Peat is quite partial to that particular type of poison, even to the point of claiming he'd regularly taken liver-damaging-sized doses with excellent results. On this website alone, I talked to three people that had got hypervitaminosis A.

We fed our dog a special food that was cooked with 3 tbs of seed oils (per instructions on the bag). Also gave her fish oil for atopic dermatitis. Needless to say she succumbed to cancer. I wish I had found this forum years ago!

 

[GreenEyedBlonde]

Hi @Albina,

Grant Genereux thinks that children get eczema when their livers fill up with retinol. He theorises their symptoms recede as their livers grow during puberty! Old people may also get eczema as their livers fill up.

Grant managed to get rid of his eczema and depression by strictly eating zero vitamin A. He doesn't know of any shortcuts but does know of one eczema sufferer who healed herself via coffee enemas. Perhaps these prompt the liver to dump retinol?

If you want to try this, perhaps start with a very weak coffee solution.

COFFEE ENEMA INSTRUCTIONS | Moses Nutrition

The wikipedia article on vitamin A lists the highest sources. Cod Liver Oil is the worst. I think Peat blames the dog cancer effects of Cod Liver Oil on PUFA! Could he be looking at the wrong poison?

Bird and beef liver are high but you don't (normally) eat huge quantities of these!

Supplements, sunscreens and skin medicines are high!

Sweet potatoes, spinach, kale, carrots and pumpkin are high, but absorption may be less if eaten without butter or other fats!

I have started taking my OJ, banana and mango in the morning and delaying fats until later in the day!

I would need to drop OJ, mango, cantaloupe and papaya altogether to test a low vitamin A diet properly!

Funny you should mention children... my 18 mo old grandson was dx with eczema over most of his body. He probably drinks a quart of milk/day and loves to eat red and orange veggies. His milk is DHA fortified on top it.

 

[Amazoniac]

- https://l-i-g-h-t.com/transcript-435

vitamin A is the main problem of a vegetarian because carotene can so easily get in the way of vitamin A functions. I had learned that by a young man who was extremely sick and his doctors had found that he had practically no vitamin A in his blood but extremely high carotene which was blocking all of his hormones

In his case, all it took was one dose of vitamin B12, which is needed to convert carotene to vitamin A and within a week his symptoms had gone and his vitamin A level was normal and he was able to convert the carotene to vitamin A easily.

any little source of vitamin B12 can keep a vegetarian in good health as long as they avoid too many of the toxins

- https://l-i-g-h-t.com/transcript-341

I constantly warn people about [juicing carrots]. There are good chemicals in the juice, good nutrition, but unless your thyroid is pretty active, it’s going to accumulate the carotene, because you need to convert carotene to vitamin A, if you have vitamin B12 in proportion to how active your thyroid hormone is and if for some reason you are getting more carotene than your vitamin B12 and thyroid can handle, then it turns off the thyroid function. I experienced that myself about 40 years ago, eating so many carrots that I suppressed my thyroid. But, if your thyroid is good, then having a whole carrot every day has some very important anti-stress functions.

- Primal Wisdom: Vitamin B12 and Human Nutritional Evolution

 

[InChristAlone]

- https://l-i-g-h-t.com/transcript-435

​

- https://l-i-g-h-t.com/transcript-341

​

- Primal Wisdom: Vitamin B12 and Human Nutritional Evolution

Good quotes!

 

[Travis]

'I had learned that by a young man who was extremely sick and his doctors had found that he had practically no vitamin A in his blood but extremely high carotene which was blocking all of his hormones.' ―Ray Peat

Wow. I had no idea that β-carotene block every hormone. This is amazing, especially considering to disparate molecular structures of hormones in general: steroids, protein hormones, peptide hormones, thyroid hormones, retinoids, and calciferols can apparently all be blocked by β-carotene. ******* amazing.

 

[inthedark]

https://raypeatforum.com/community/...y-neutralized-by-vitamin-c.23115/#post-327497

A forum member posted this study about Vitamin C helping with Vitamin A toxicity. It's a good read.

 

[Amazoniac]

Wow. I had no idea that β-carotene block every hormone. This is amazing, especially considering to disparate molecular structures of hormones in general: steroids, protein hormones, peptide hormones, thyroid hormones, retinoids, and calciferols can apparently all be blocked by β-carotene. ******* amazing.

figurative - Wiktionary
human - Wiktionary
matter - Wiktionary
substance - Wiktionary
chat - Wiktionary

 

[Travis]

figurative - Wiktionary
human - Wiktionary
matter - Wiktionary
substance - Wiktionary
chat - Wiktionary

If you literally believe that β-carotene can literally block thyroid hormone synthesis and/or thyroxine deiodination, based on those comments, perhaps you should search for experimental or clinical corroboration of this effect? Carotenes are the primary source of retinoids for most of the animal kingdom, and not even authors of comprehensive reviews hint towards thyrotoxicity or any kind:

Heywood, R. "The toxicity of beta-carotene." Toxicology (1985)

'β-Carotene is a widely distributed naturally occurring pigment which is used extensively as a food colorant. The toxicity of crystalline β-carotene has been described [1,2]. This paper reports data from long-term toxicity studies of this material, and presents results of carcinogenicity studies performed in rats and mice, as well as results of mutagenicity tests.' ―Heywood​

The most salient effect at doses up to one gram per kilogram per day had been liver changes reminiscent of retinol toxicity, although much higher doses were needed by comparison.

 

[Amazoniac]

If you literally believe that β-carotene can literally block thyroid hormone synthesis and/or thyroxine deiodination, based on those comments, perhaps you should search for experimental or clinical corroboration of this effect? Carotenes are the primary source of retinoids for most of the animal kingdom, and not even authors of comprehensive reviews hint towards thyrotoxicity or any kind:

Heywood, R. "The toxicity of beta-carotene." Toxicology (1985)

'β-Carotene is a widely distributed naturally occurring pigment which is used extensively as a food colorant. The toxicity of crystalline β-carotene has been described [1,2]. This paper reports data from long-term toxicity studies of this material, and presents results of carcinogenicity studies performed in rats and mice, as well as results of mutagenicity tests.' ―Heywood​

The most salient effect at doses up to one gram per kilogram per day had been liver changes reminiscent of retinol toxicity, although much higher doses were needed by comparison.

Read it.

If the body is having trouble producing enough hormones to maintain itself and since those are needed for conversion of carotene to retinol, how is that eating more carotenes than the body can handle won't compromise hormones further?

http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/10/08/carotenemia-hypothyroidism/

 

[Kartoffel]

I don't know whether β-carotene inhibits thyroid function at any point, but it doesn't seem too far fetched given that it's the precursor for retinol, and retinol in too large amounts can, in fact, inhibit thyroid function because the resonant double bonds in vitamin A have effects analogous to PUFA. Given that conversion of β-carotene to retinol is poor to begin with, some deficiency of a factor needed for the conversion could potentially lead to accumulating a level that will suppress thyroid function, which is not the same as saying it's thyrotoxic.

 

[JerkyPerky]

- https://l-i-g-h-t.com/transcript-435

​

- https://l-i-g-h-t.com/transcript-341

​

- Primal Wisdom: Vitamin B12 and Human Nutritional Evolution

Now this is really interesting, thank you.

I can recall feeling just so awesome every morning after having eaten V.A-filled chicken liver the evening before, a feeling very unlike the one from eating plant-form V.A. Not that it matters right now for me in this state, but it's interesting none the less.

Anyhow:
I've ordered a genetic testing kit from 23andme to further facilitate my diagnosis and recovery from hypervitaminosis A. There is so much information to be retrieved from the raw genetic data, relevant to the function of my liver.

For instance:

*
"People with a T allele on both rs12934922 and rs7501331 have a 69% decreased conversion of beta-carotene to retinol. "
"Three other variants that are found near the BCMO1 gene have also been shown in a small study to affect the rate of conversion by about 50%".
How Well Do You Convert Beta-Carotene to Vitamin A?

*Folate has a very important role in antioxidant & scavenging of ROS in the liver, some genetic variants in relevant genes could severely impact methylation through MTHFR, and thus comprimise the function of my liver.
It seems that when in excess, vitamin A can have a very pro-oxidant effect, so any defects in the protective systems would be very detrimental.
"If you have two copies of the C677T gene (this means you are homozygous for this variant), then the MTHFR enzyme’s activity can drop by 70-75 percent. If you have one copy of this gene (heterozygote), then activity can be reduced by 33-35 percent. If you have two copies of the A1298C variant you may lose 39 percent of MTHFR gene activity."
https://www.honeycolony.com/article/mthfr-gene-methylation/

*Apparently Hemochromatosis is quite prevalent throughout Scandinavia
"Calculated phenotypic allele frequencies are high in Scandinavia: Iceland, 6.1% to 7.4%; Norway, 5.8%; central Sweden, 6.3% to 6.9%; Denmark, 6.1%."
Frequencies of the hereditary hemochromatosis allele in different populations. Comparison of previous phenotypic methods and novel genotypic methods. - PubMed - NCBI

And probably a lot of other things I'll learn as time goes, having the raw genetic data at hand might prove very useful.


It would not surprise me if I have some genetic variation of the BCMO1 making for poor carotene-retinol-conversion. I can remember many, many, many years ago when I just because I liked it, ate like 4-5 carrots a day for like two weeks...I literally turned orange/yellow in my skin. Poor conversion?

 

[Dave Clark]

https://raypeatforum.com/community/...y-neutralized-by-vitamin-c.23115/#post-327497

A forum member posted this study about Vitamin C helping with Vitamin A toxicity. It's a good read.

Speaking of vitamin C , does anybody know anything about this form? I have seen it used in skin products, but did not know it was used internally. Not much info on the net. Does anyone here use this? Asc2P 250 mg - Vitamins - Supersmart.com

 

[Amazoniac]

I don't know whether β-carotene inhibits thyroid function at any point, but it doesn't seem too far fetched given that it's the precursor for retinol, and retinol in too large amounts can, in fact, inhibit thyroid function because the resonant double bonds in vitamin A have effects analogous to PUFA. Given that conversion of β-carotene to retinol is poor to begin with, some deficiency of a factor needed for the conversion could potentially lead to accumulating a level that will suppress thyroid function, which is not the same as saying it's thyrotoxic.

Yeah, the issue is not toxicity. If people have been chronically stressed for years and years, a depressed metabolism appears with or is caused by multiple deficiencies. It's just that having too much carotene around demanding more nutrition and the body not being able to meet that, forces it to suppress the metabolism further.

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

"The association of carotenemia with hypothyroidism and with diabetes mellitus has been well known for many years. The mechanisms of the elevated serum carotene values in both diseases are thought to be the decreased conversion of carotene into vitamin A, secondary to an increase in beta lipoproteins, which are the major carriers of carotene.10.13,16.17"

"Because of the known relationship between carotene and vitamin A, questions may be raised about the risk of vitamin A poisoning in patients with carotenemia. Even when massive amounts of carotene are ingested, vitamin A intoxication does not result because of the slow conversion of carotene to vitamin A; serum vitamin A concentrations are normal or only slightly increased in carotenemia."

 

[Kartoffel]

Yeah, the issue is not toxicity. If people have been chronically stressed for years and years, a depressed metabolism appears with or is caused by multiple deficiencies. It's just that having too much carotene around demanding more nutrition and the body not being able to meet that, forces it to suppress the metabolism further.

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

"The association of carotenemia with hypothyroidism and with diabetes mellitus has been well known for many years. The mechanisms of the elevated serum carotene values in both diseases are thought to be the decreased conversion of carotene into vitamin A, secondary to an increase in beta lipoproteins, which are the major carriers of carotene.10.13,16.17"

"Because of the known relationship between carotene and vitamin A, questions may be raised about the risk of vitamin A poisoning in patients with carotenemia. Even when massive amounts of carotene are ingested, vitamin A intoxication does not result because of the slow conversion of carotene to vitamin A; serum vitamin A concentrations are normal or only slightly increased in carotenemia."

Yes, I agree with your basic idea, and don't think that carotenima is completely irrelevant for thyroid status for the reason I stated above. It makes sense that you don't find increased levels of vitamin A in people with carotenemia since thyroid is required for the conversion to retinol, and people with carotenemia almost always have hypothyroidism unless they eat ridiculous amounts of carotene. Giving thyroid to orange people very quickly restarts the conversion to retinol and solves the problem (someone should tell a certain leader of the free world).

 

[Amazoniac]

All from Functioning on the Alps.

The carotenemia of hypothyroidism

"The carotene of the blood is derived almost exclusively from the carotene being ingested. When ingested in excessive amounts, its level in the blood rises; when eliminated from the diet, its level falls, and in a relatively short time carotene is absent from the blood stream."

"The "stores" of carotene contained in the fat depots of the body are unavailable for maintaining a recognizable amount in the blood. Even during starvation when fat stores are being broken down, carotene is not freed in appreciable amounts."

"Carotene is closely dependent on the lipids which apparently serve as a vehicle not only for storage, but also for absorption from the intestines and probably for transport in the blood stream. In conditions that interfere with digestion or absorption of fat, carotene is absent from the blood."

"Movements of carotene in the body are sluggish compared with other lipids and especially with vitamin A. Examples of "sluggishness" of carotene response have been given above, but there are also others. Absorption curves of vitamin A and of lipids in general are measured in hours, those of carotene in days. In pneumonia, serum vitamin A may be reduced to traces and other lipids to low figures in two to three days, while reduction of carotene is a matter of a week or more."

"In general, carotene behaves as an inert substance dependent on the lipids for its movements in the body and having no effect upon the body's economy except as a precursor of vitamin A. However, excessive ingestion may in some cases be followed by certain toxic effects, which are similar to those arising from excessive vitamin A ingestion, but are due to carotene and not to vitamin A."

"As was indicated above, the level of carotene in the blood stream depends on its absorption from the intestinal tract. When this is relatively low as is the case when the lipid levels of the blood are normal or low, the blood level will lie within a certain range usually considered normal. Of course, this level will depend somewhat on ingestion but the rate of removal will ordinarily balance the rate of entrance, so that within a fairly wide range of ingestion the blood level will tend to be constant. This statement holds true for hypothyroidism in which adequate treatment with thyroid extract is being maintained. When thyroid medication is discontinued, the lipid levels rise but the relatively slow absorption of carotene may cause the rise in its level to lag behind that of the lipids. Then as the higher lipid levels exert their accelerating influence on carotene absorption, the plasma carotene rises to a point commensurate with the plasma lipids. However, the high lipid levels have also a second effect, namely, that of holding the carotene in solution in the plasma so that accumulation takes place and the carotene-lipid ratio rises to the higher levels characteristic of the hypothyroid state."

"[..]when thyroid medication was withdrawn or instituted the resultant rise or fall in carotene tended to lag behind that of the total lipid. It was pointed out that carotene was probably "carried" by the lipids and as a result would not only show some lag in movement but would tend to accumulate in the blood stream when the lipids were increased. It was felt that this behavior of carotene might well be a factor in the "failure" to convert carotene to vitamin A in hypothyroidism."

Spoiler: Before and after - A mild hypopboyd case

 

[JerkyPerky]

All from Functioning on the Alps.

The carotenemia of hypothyroidism

"The carotene of the blood is derived almost exclusively from the carotene being ingested. When ingested in excessive amounts, its level in the blood rises; when eliminated from the diet, its level falls, and in a relatively short time carotene is absent from the blood stream."

"The "stores" of carotene contained in the fat depots of the body are unavailable for maintaining a recognizable amount in the blood. Even during starvation when fat stores are being broken down, carotene is not freed in appreciable amounts."

"Carotene is closely dependent on the lipids which apparently serve as a vehicle not only for storage, but also for absorption from the intestines and probably for transport in the blood stream. In conditions that interfere with digestion or absorption of fat, carotene is absent from the blood."

"Movements of carotene in the body are sluggish compared with other lipids and especially with vitamin A. Examples of "sluggishness" of carotene response have been given above, but there are also others. Absorption curves of vitamin A and of lipids in general are measured in hours, those of carotene in days. In pneumonia, serum vitamin A may be reduced to traces and other lipids to low figures in two to three days, while reduction of carotene is a matter of a week or more."

"In general, carotene behaves as an inert substance dependent on the lipids for its movements in the body and having no effect upon the body's economy except as a precursor of vitamin A. However, excessive ingestion may in some cases be followed by certain toxic effects, which are similar to those arising from excessive vitamin A ingestion, but are due to carotene and not to vitamin A."

"As was indicated above, the level of carotene in the blood stream depends on its absorption from the intestinal tract. When this is relatively low as is the case when the lipid levels of the blood are normal or low, the blood level will lie within a certain range usually considered normal. Of course, this level will depend somewhat on ingestion but the rate of removal will ordinarily balance the rate of entrance, so that within a fairly wide range of ingestion the blood level will tend to be constant. This statement holds true for hypothyroidism in which adequate treatment with thyroid extract is being maintained. When thyroid medication is discontinued, the lipid levels rise but the relatively slow absorption of carotene may cause the rise in its level to lag behind that of the lipids. Then as the higher lipid levels exert their accelerating influence on carotene absorption, the plasma carotene rises to a point commensurate with the plasma lipids. However, the high lipid levels have also a second effect, namely, that of holding the carotene in solution in the plasma so that accumulation takes place and the carotene-lipid ratio rises to the higher levels characteristic of the hypothyroid state."

"[..]when thyroid medication was withdrawn or instituted the resultant rise or fall in carotene tended to lag behind that of the total lipid. It was pointed out that carotene was probably "carried" by the lipids and as a result would not only show some lag in movement but would tend to accumulate in the blood stream when the lipids were increased. It was felt that this behavior of carotene might well be a factor in the "failure" to convert carotene to vitamin A in hypothyroidism."

Spoiler: Before and after - A mild hypopboyd case

View attachment 10069

I guess this might be relevant to the discussion... >_<

 

[Amazoniac]

Hey again. Thanks a lot for your detailed and thorough response.


____________SAD TIMES____________
I'm mid 20's and my liver is basically failing due to what I think is a hepatic accumulation of X over a period of about 10 years.

Due to the liver complications it's very hard to try and differentiate symtoms from each other. It's gotten to the point where any period of prolonged fasting kills me. A couple of weeks ago I had to come in for a blood sample. By the time I was getting out of there, I had been fasted for around 11 hours. Walking home made the pain in my lower rightt side unbearable. It gets so fkin incredibly sore if I go longer periods without carbs or if the section gets cold - that aches as well.

If I work out too hard and eat a lot of protein, I get parkinson's symtoms with 0 energy and shaky hands due to what I think is ammonia building up. Blood vessels also rupture on tongue and face so that's not fun either. Thrombocytopenia sucks.
________________________________

I'm just adding all the data I have for you guys.

- Oral magnesium supplementation decreases alanine aminotransferase levels in obese women

As far as I know, inorganic magnesium salts are only meant to be used as a tools to inflict self-harm to draw attention and concern of people around us out of pity. There are various threads on the forum discussing issues with them and which forms are better. But it's worth considering starting slowly if you decide to.

Magnesium supplements with the fewest additives - Toxinless​

- https://raypeatforum.com/community/...-supplements-rich-in-vitamin-b-complex.14859/
- https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/i-have-liver-issues-and-i-am-not-making-progress.18796/