How To Revert Hypervitaminosis A?

[Mito]

I am due for labs and will hv liver enzymes checked. Is there anything else I should have tested?

Have you checked serum Vitamin A?

 

[GreenEyedBlonde]

Have you checked serum Vitamin A?

No, I have never had it checked. I’m due for my thyroid labs and will have it checked then along with liver enzymes. Is there anything else I should have included. Had emergency appendectomy 6 days ago. I was told my hemoglobin was slightly high at 15.1.

 

[Mito]

No, I have never had it checked. I’m due for my thyroid labs and will have it checked then along with liver enzymes. Is there anything else I should have included. Had emergency appendectomy 6 days ago. I was told my hemoglobin was slightly high at 15.1.

There are some ideas on testing in this thread https://raypeatforum.com/community/...-fatty-acid-deficiency.2992/page-3#post-81705.

 

[GreenEyedBlonde]

There are some ideas on testing in this thread https://raypeatforum.com/community/...-fatty-acid-deficiency.2992/page-3#post-81705.

That’s so helpful. Thanks!

 

[Travis]

Read it.

If the body is having trouble producing enough hormones to maintain itself and since those are needed for conversion of carotene to retinol, how is that eating more carotenes than the body can handle won't compromise hormones further?

Because they aren't converted willy-nilly proportional to dose but cleaved only as needed. You are aware that β-carotene is cleaved by an enzyme under reverse feedback from retinoic acid. This has been experimentally proven, and also implied by β-carotene having LD₅₀ values and teratogenicity indices orders of magnitude lower than retinol.

Now have you found any scientific demonstration of β-carotene antagonizing thyroxine production in any way?

 

[Travis]

Now this is really interesting, thank you.
It would not surprise me if I have some genetic variation of the BCMO1 making for poor carotene-retinol-conversion. I can remember many, many, many years ago when I just because I liked it, ate like 4-5 carrots a day for like two weeks...I literally turned orange/yellow in my skin. Poor conversion?

I would say that's proper conversion, because were the β-carotene ⟶ retinol conversion 100% then being orange would be you're least concern. As previously mentioned, carotene cleavage does not occur at a steady rate yet occurs on demand:

Bachmann, Heinrich. "Feedback regulation of β, β-carotene 15, 15′-monooxygenase by retinoic acid in rats and chickens." The Journal of nutrition (2002)​

 

[Jon]

@Amazoniac posted this thread:
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/balancing-vitamins-a-and-e.22674/#post-358454

Which exhibits studies that talk about vitamin E and it's antagonism of vitamin A (mainly retinol). It still states that carotene aren't as effected by E but seems they still were antagonized by it and subsequently lowered. Might be worth exploring. @Albina

 

[Amazoniac]

Because they aren't converted willy-nilly proportional to dose but cleaved only as needed. You are aware that β-carotene is cleaved by an enzyme under reverse feedback from retinoic acid. This has been experimentally proven, and also implied by β-carotene having LD₅₀ values and teratogenicity indices orders of magnitude lower than retinol.

Now have you found any scientific demonstration of β-carotene antagonizing thyroxine production in any way?

Guru, the issue isn't vitamin A toxicity (there's no doubt that dietary carotenes are safer than retinol), but too much unused carotenes stressing a depleted body even more.

No, I haven't. It's neglected because they consider it to be completely harmless, and you seem to agree, right?

Unchanged circulating hormones doesn't mean that their function can't be compromised, which is why there are people with normal blood values but feeling cold.

Common deficiencies when the metabolism is weak also make the body unable to use vitamin A properly: riboflavin, niacin, b12, magnesium, zinc, and so on, so carotenes will just accumulate. How insisting on it won't affect the body in a negative way?

Related but speculative:

- https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120501134414.htm

- Naturally-occurring eccentric cleavage products of provitamin A beta-carotene function as antagonists of retinoic acid receptors​

"β-Carotene is cleaved eccentrically at double bonds other than the central one to yield β-apocarotenals and β-apocarotenones (8-10), molecules that have been detected in foods (11) and in the blood of both humans (12) and animals (13), but whose function in these is unknown. Here we show that some of these compounds (particularly β-apo-14’-carotenal, β-apo-14’-carotenoic acid, and β-apo-13-carotenone) function as antagonists of retinoic acid receptors α, β, and γ and block the ATRA-induced activation of endogenous genes that contain RAREs in their promoters. Moreover, these molecules directly compete for ATRA binding to all receptor subtypes and in the case of β-apo-13-carotenone, the binding affinity is in the nanomolar range and comparable to ATRA itself. Thus, depending on the extent of oxidative cleavage at its various double bonds, dietary β-carotene can produce differing proportions of both agonists and antagonists of retinoic acid receptors. This Janus face may account for the unexpected and negative effects of large doses of β-carotene used in human clinical trials."​

And here's more from Raj for you to protest:

- https://l-i-g-h-t.com/transcript-358

"The carrot is rich in carotene. When you eat it as a whole vegetable, raw, the fibre keeps you from absorbing, almost all the carotene passes through you. When you juice, you get quite a bit of good sugar and minerals, but you also get a tremendous amount of carotene. And carotene works like unsaturated fats in blocking thyroid function and progesterone function. In the early years of treating thyroid patients, they noticed that infertile women often turn out to have a red spot in the ovary in place of the yellow spot, which is called the corpus luteum. And it was red because such a tremendous amount of carotene had accumulated in it, that instead of being yellow it was a red spot. And that indicates both that the thyroid is unable to convert the cholesterol into progesterone and that the vitamin A, which should be used in the conversion, is blocked by the carotene accumulating in the tissue. It's the same with the adrenals. The excess carotene blocks adrenal steroid production."

"If a person has a very vigorous thyroid function and plenty of vitamin B12, they can take care of a lot of carotene. But if you notice that the calluses on your hands and feet are starting to get an orange tint to them, that means you've got too much carotene."​

Either way, to keep shoving more carotenes in these states doesn't sound like a good idea.

 

[JerkyPerky]

Update:

So this one was actually way simpler than I thought.

I was wondering exactly *WHY* hypervitaminosis A hurts(not a stinging feeling, more like a pressure), say the morning after having eaten a lot of eggs before going to bed.

Apparently during hypervitaminosis A, hepatocytes swell both due to the accumulation of retinyl esters but ALSO due to a fundamental shift in concentration of vitamins and minerals between serum and liver tissue.


"While Na and Zn increased, the other cations decreased its concentrations in the whole liver. "
Effects of acute overdose of vitamin A on the hepatic content of K, Na, Mg, Fe, Cu and Zn, in rats. - PubMed - NCBI

"The serum content of potassium, magnesium and copper increased significantly, while the content of sodium, zinc and iron decreased significantly"
https://raypeatforum.com/community/...rations-of-na-k-mg-fe-zn-and-cu-in-rats.9651/

The increased concentration of liver Na probably forces hepatocytes to retain a lot of fluid, so that the liver expands and puts pressure on the pain receptors located on its surface.

This is probably why many diets relating to liver injury advises sodium restriction. The fluid shear stress on hepatocytes probably further impair their function too, which wouldn't be helping revert my hypervitaminosis.

I'll be monitoring my sodium intake from now on.

If anyone knows of the sodium-retinol interaction I'd be really interested to hear.



Amazoniac: I've tried two different vitamin supplements and all they did was give me a crazy pressure in my head. The first one was a B12+B6+Folic acid supplement and the other one was Thiamine.

I guess I can't convert the forms of these properly, what I felt from both was very odd...it was not a headache - it didn't hurt, it just felt like a pressure in my head. I probably just can't convert the forms properly in my state so they just build up instead???

Topformula | B6 B12 Folsyra, 90 tab
Vitamin B6 4 mg 285 % pyridoxine hydrochloride
Vitamin B12 50 µg 2000 % cobalamin
Folsyra 800 µg 400 % folic acid

Vitamin B1 100mg 60 TAB
Vitamin B1 100 mg thiamine mononitrate + thiamine HCl

 

[JerkyPerky]

Increased fluid shear stress - from liver cell swelling, destroying blood platelets would explain why I woke up with more black spots today, despite seizing all vitamin A intake.

I do salt my food quite a lot actually. Never thought about it.

This definitely would explain why the pain was just horrible one time after having eaten a lot of salty cottage cheese before going to bed.

The thrombocytopenia on this recent pic is nothing in comparison to earlier though. The difference is staggering! https://raypeatforum.com/community/attachments/rip-jpg.9930/

 

[Amazoniac]

Increased fluid shear stress - from liver cell swelling, destroying blood platelets would explain why I woke up with more black spots today, despite seizing all vitamin A intake.

I do salt my food quite a lot actually. Never thought about it.



The thrombocytopenia on this recent pic is nothing in comparison to earlier though. The difference is staggering! https://raypeatforum.com/community/attachments/rip-jpg.9930/

Do you have bad body odor? It can be a clue that perhaps you're not getting enough magnesium, vit C, taurine, and B-vitamins (which most of them can only function correctly if others are also present).
There are various threads about the effects of insufficient potash and magnesia intakes.

 

[JerkyPerky]

Do you have bad body odor? It can be a clue that perhaps you're not getting enough magnesium, vit C, taurine, and B-vitamins (which most of them can only function correctly if others are also present).
There are various threads about the effects of insufficient potash and magnesia intakes.

Not that I know of, hard to tell really.

I'm trying to get enough vitamins and minerals through my diet. 2 kg of potatoes, like 200g of cod, a lot of yoghurt, walnuts and about 200 g of broccoli seems to be fine for me - keeps my symptoms down. There's plenty of taurine in the fish I'm eating, but I've ordered it isolated as well for its supposed protective effect during hypervitaminosis A.

I think I might add a B-complex with 100% RDA to make sure I'm not missing anything.

 

[sunraiser]

Stupid advice like this decrying restrictive dieting almost always comes from people who have never had to deal with debilitating illness. It is very ironic too because you're giving very specific advice in this thread.

I was making inclusive food suggestions and considering curbing extremely high intake of a goitrogenic food, not pushing strict dietary restriction. Although you're right, it was vaguely hypocritical as broccoli is a great sulphur donor and if it was craved it was almost certainly doing something useful physiologically.

I have dealt with chronic health issues and been through soul asphyxiatingly difficult times just like many here. I'm just trying to keep people grounded and away from the idea that the foods and nutrients are specific enemies. It's your transient metabolic state and a missing rate limiting set of dietary and lifestyle factors that are causing issue (obviously there are niche environmental toxicities and mercury issues etc).

Avoiding vitamin A might well be helpful if people are incorrectly metabolising vitamin A cofactors (which could be for a number of reasons). By all means avoid it TEMPORARILY. But the point is vitamin A is absolutely, unequivocally, without a doubt imperative for ACTUAL recovery.

One of the big issues that happens with internet research and these forums is that people find the right threads and missing links to heal but they can't reach recovery because their mind has withdrawn into the shadows of food fears - a person that solves their rate limiting factors but believes vitamin A is a toxin still will not be allowed to heal.

It's not the nutrient or vitamin, it's not the food, it's your transient condition. Temporary changes for relief are okay as long as you don't go down the crazy road (albeit sourced from a lived pain and relief cycle) guys like Genereaux go down.

Of course eating WHOLE foods and having a framework of understanding while eating a varied and delicious diet is needed, but the food avoidance is just symptom avoidance. I can cure many issues with drugs and alcohol but they're avoiding symptoms not fixing the root cause. Just like cypro, just like aspirin.

 

[Travis]

Of course eating WHOLE foods and having a framework of understanding while eating a varied and delicious diet is needed, but the food avoidance is just symptom avoidance. I can cure many issues with drugs and alcohol but they're avoiding symptoms not fixing the root cause. Just like cypro, just like aspirin.

Yet whole foods can lead to hypervitaminosis A, and subclinical forms would of course more common. This is a big deal because retinol bypasses a control step—i.e. carotene monooxygenase—and is absorbed and stored in the liver more-or-less willy-nilly. If you take the position that we had evolved mainly as frugivores—on that many scientists take—and hadn't the time to genetically-adapt to eating retinol, then this stops becoming a true vitamin. Retinol is classified as a vitamin–hormone by some, just like calciferol, yet the term 'vitamin' implies a necessary and natural element of food. Under an evolutionary–frugivore paradigm, carotenes would be the true vitamins and retinol could be seen more like a pre-hormone storage form. Occupying first place right ahead of iron, 'vitamin A' is listed as the one supplement inducing more calls to poison control centers per annum than any other—even including things not given the optimistic 'vitamin' moniker.

 

[sunraiser]

Yet whole foods can lead to hypervitaminosis A, and subclinical forms would of course more common. This is a big deal because retinol bypasses a control step—i.e. carotene monooxygenase—and is absorbed and stored in the liver more-or-less willy-nilly. If you take the position that we had evolved mainly as frugivores—on that many scientists take—and hadn't the time to genetically-adapt to eating retinol, then this stops becoming a true vitamin. Retinol is classified as a vitamin–hormone by some, just like calciferol, yet the term 'vitamin' implies a necessary and natural element of food. Under an evolutionary–frugivore paradigm, carotenes would be the true vitamins and retinol could be seen more like a pre-hormone storage form. Occupying first place right ahead of iron, 'vitamin A' is listed as the one supplement inducing more calls to poison control centers per annum than any other—even including things not given the optimistic 'vitamin' moniker.

When I say "Vitamin A" I don't specifically mean retinol. I don't disagree that we're probably best adapted to cartenoids and that there are also times when our body simply does not want any vitamin A be it via greens or retinol, but I don't believe that's ever a permanent state.

A functioning metabolism is going to require cartenoids and/or retinol. Retinol can absolutely be very unpleasant as it's already active and bypasses the body's natural limiting mechanisms - I don't recommend supplementing with retinol in general. But to undermine your point - if cartenoids are converted to retinol then eating a given amount of retinol (via cravings) can still be useful to the human body. If you eat it for the sake of it (like many do on this forum via liver consumption - including me in the past) then you're probably going to get into very unpleasant territory.

I don't think we're disagreeing - your post is useful as me referring to it as simply "vitamin A" might prompt people to think I meant taking it as an isolated supplement, which I did not.

 

[Mito]

Yet whole foods can lead to hypervitaminosis A

But practically impossible without ingesting liver?

 

[Travis]

But practically impossible without ingesting liver?

Perhaps, and only certain types. Did you see how much retinol levels fluctuate in the autopsy data? Perhaps livers from vegetarian animals are far lower in retinol? and especially non-hibernating tropical ones that never had the need to store retinol hepatically. Yet since liver retinol presumably cannot be determined reliably without a biopsy, there doesn't seem to be much data on how this effects its' function.

Do you think 'sub-hypervitaminosis A' liver retinol stores could significantly affect liver function?

 

[sunraiser]

@OP

For something functional and practical your early post seems to make the most sense. Copper could well have the capacity to massively aid retinol clearance and supplementing 2-4mg copper for a few weeks won't do huge harm.

Retinol and copper work together but if you're skewed in favour of active retinol for a while without robust copper intake then it's entirely possible you'll have an artificially inflated copper need for a little while to provide balance. This is hard through diet as liver provides too much retinol to achieve such a homeostasis.

I'll post in more detail on this in future but it feels very compelling to me at the moment. I'm seeing more and more people have luck with a similar approach but I can't be certain of anything so don't consider this prescriptive.

Considering your study on page 1 perhaps it'll feel right for you to try.

I'm unsure there are any other "active" forms of nutrients in the way retinol is in nature, so it makes sense for it to have a very specific and potentially debilitating consequence but also a specific resolution mechanism that might be more challenging to achieve in the short term via tolerable diet (lots of lobster and squid might get you to those copper levels though).

This is why eating "healthy" and overriding intuition/craving can be so dangerous, particularly in the context of vitamin A.

 

[Mito]

Do you think 'sub-hypervitaminosis A' liver retinol stores could significantly affect liver function?

I would think it’s possible depending on someone’s health or nutritional status (especially Vitamin D, E, and K).

 

[Hans]

Vitamin B1 100 mg thiamine mononitrate + thiamine HCl

The mononitrate will boosts nitric oxide, which is not good. Maybe this is causing issues?