FREEZING hands and feet

[ilovethesea]

Nature Throid is really the same as Armour or other NDT. It's very reputable in the thyroid community. In any event, T3 is the active thyroid hormone, so taking it often should definitely allow us to notice 'something'. T4 has to convert to it anyways.

I was just going to suggest you read Danny Roddy's page of quotes but I see Diane has beat me to it :)

Do you have a diagnosed liver issue? Seems very strange that 30mcg wouldn't have any effect. Aside from checking diet, I guess your options are to increase the T3 or to try a combined T3/T4 med and for longer than 2 weeks.

Peat I think says it takes about 2 weeks for the effects to build up.

Yes, in the tissues but you may not feel it that soon. Broda Barnes wrote:
"Thyroid therapy does not produce overnight change. No change may be noted for about a month. Usually, at some point between one month and two months after the beginning of therapy, some of the symptoms begin to subside and the individual begins to feel better."

1/2 grain - 1 grain in morning. The doc didn't really know much who prescribed it.
When discussing with Peat though, he said it wasn't your typical fillers and they could be very dangerous.

Can you post what he said exactly? Was he talking about your Nature Throid specifically?
Also, it's really important to stay on a consistent dosage every day for the two months instead of some days 1/2 a grain, some days a full grain. It's a very bad idea to mess around with the doses especially when your body is just starting to figure out what to do with it.

Hope that helps! Personally if it were me I would give the NDT or Cynoplus a try, but obviously you need to choose what's right for you :)

 

[j.]

Why don't you try something without bad additives, e.g., ERFA or cynoplus?

 

[iLoveSugar]

RP regarding Nature-Throid, the NDT from my MD: "Dicalcium phosphate, lactose, magnesium stearate, and stearic acid are o.k. ingredients. Mined silicon dioxide is an absurd and potentially dangerous ingredient. It's worse than sad".

In reference to T3/T4 or NDT: It should not matter. T3 is still T4 after being converted. Getting T3 is the most essential. So while T4/T3 could benefit long term, it doesn't make sense that one needs the T4 to instantly feel better. This quote recently from RP pretty much sums it up:
"If the liver isn't working right, T4 can't work. That's the reason the combination or T3 alone can be so much more consistently effective. T4 is valuable for lowering TSH and for allowing the liver to regulate T3 as needed. T3 is the one that increases energy production, temperature, heart rate, oxygen use, etc".

No I don't have any medically proven liver issues, but with all my laundry list of symptoms, I strongly suspect it isn't even close to up to par.

 

[j.]

Do you think that T4 would be actually damaging, i.e., that T3 alone would be better than the combination?

 

[iLoveSugar]

No, BUT... For a month before evening buying T3 (Cynomel), I was using Cynoplus, and felt nothing. I do still sometimes take some before bed, just because. I never felt anything. A few times messing with higher doses of T3 alone, has warmed me up, so it's effects have shown me more reason to take it than anything else. That, coupled with what Ray has said, seems to be why I still do...

Trust me, I am open to just about anything right now. Taking 12mcg of T3 seems to warm me up some and take some of my fibromyalgia away.

 

[j.]

I personally think T3 alone is dangerous. The stuff Ray Peat said about it stopping his heart a few times per minute seems scary. One thing that I wildly guess would be safer is keeping your T3/T4 combo and maybe adding a bit of T3 to that, so that way you deviate a bit less from the natural 1:4 T3 T4 ratio.

 

[iLoveSugar]

A full cynoplus table is 30 mcg T3. I am barely feeling anything with 48 a day. I'm not opposed to the T4, I just want something with more of an immediate effect as my pain/suferring is terrible. Maybe I need more than thyroid; for Lyme and possible heavy metals.

 

[j.]

I'm not opposed to the T4, I just want something with more of an immediate effect as my pain/suferring is terrible.

What I don't understand is why are these two objectives contradictory. How does taking more T3 stop you from taking some T4 as well?

 

[iLoveSugar]

I'm not opposed to the T4, I just want something with more of an immediate effect as my pain/suferring is terrible.

What I don't understand is why are these two objectives contradictory. How does taking more T3 stop you from taking some T4 as well?

It doesn't. But I have mentioned that I do already take some cynoplus many nights, for no particular reason. Sorry, I am still very uneducated with no real solid background. Just been following Peat for about a year, and trying to learn as much as possible.

 

[ilovethesea]

I personally think T3 alone is dangerous. The stuff Ray Peat said about it stopping his heart a few times per minute seems scary. One thing that I wildly guess would be safer is keeping your T3/T4 combo and maybe adding a bit of T3 to that, so that way you deviate a bit less from the natural 1:4 T3 T4 ratio.

Agreed. I think it's much safer to stick with Broda Barnes protocol - one grain starting dose for 2 months and go up if needed from there.

I think RP confuses a lot of people with his T3 advice and I have to admit I don't really get it myself. Unless I've misunderstood something I always thought he meant for people with hypo to move on to a combined med once you see how T3 affects you. But the traditional starting dose for NDT is one grain anyway, so do you really need to tinker around with T3 before that?

ILoveSugar, you said that 12mcg of T3 warms you up a bit, so that's equivalent to what's in 1.5 grains.

I'm not opposed to the T4, I just want something with more of an immediate effect as my pain/suferring is terrible. Maybe I need more than thyroid; for Lyme and possible heavy metals.

I do still sometimes take some before bed, just because. I never felt anything.

Again, healing hypothyroid cannot happen overnight, it's a matter of weeks and months. If you want it to work then the dose needs to be consistent every day. You can still have your T3 but adding some T4 in a 1:4 ratio or 1:3 at most might be the answer. If you're very concerned about purity then Cynoplus is the way to go. Or Erfa or Thiroyd.

Are you taking your daily temperatures and pulse?

 

[iLoveSugar]

Agreed. I think it's much safer to stick with Broda Barnes protocol - one grain starting dose for 2 months and go up if needed from there.

I think RP confuses a lot of people with his T3 advice and I have to admit I don't really get it myself. Unless I've misunderstood something I always thought he meant for people with hypo to move on to a combined med once you see how T3 affects you. But the traditional starting dose for NDT is one grain anyway, so do you really need to tinker around with T3 before that?

ILoveSugar, you said that 12mcg of T3 warms you up a bit, so that's equivalent to what's in 1.5 grains.

I'm not opposed to the T4, I just want something with more of an immediate effect as my pain/suferring is terrible. Maybe I need more than thyroid; for Lyme and possible heavy metals.

I do still sometimes take some before bed, just because. I never felt anything.

Again, healing hypothyroid cannot happen overnight, it's a matter of weeks and months. If you want it to work then the dose needs to be consistent every day. You can still have your T3 but adding some T4 in a 1:4 ratio or 1:3 at most might be the answer. If you're very concerned about purity then Cynoplus is the way to go. Or Erfa or Thiroyd.

Are you taking your daily temperatures and pulse?

That is correct; basically use it to find a T3 dose AND in case of any liver issues which I strongly suspect.

So if 12 mcg is equiv to 1.5 grains, would I need 6 grains a day?

I am taking daily temps pulse. High 96 to low 98s. Pulse between 78-84.

 

[iLoveSugar]

So if I incorporate T4 as well, what can a little example plan be? T3, T3, T3, T3/T4?

 

[ilovethesea]

That is correct; basically use it to find a T3 dose AND in case of any liver issues which I strongly suspect.

So if 12 mcg is equiv to 1.5 grains, would I need 6 grains a day?

I am taking daily temps pulse. High 96 to low 98s. Pulse between 78-84.

How do you know you have liver issues? Do you have elevated liver enzymes or some other symptom? Untreated hypothyroidism can give you liver issues btw.

What's your rising temp? Have you measured it before and after meals? Pulse seems ok. I think it's supposed to be in the 80s. You may have overactive adrenals that are compensating for low thyroid. The fact that you are very cold seems to indicate low thyroid anyway.

So if I incorporate T4 as well, what can a little example plan be? T3, T3, T3, T3/T4?

RP recommends a 1:4 or 1:3 ratio of T3 to T4. It's good to split the doses throughout the day. Some people sleep better with some T4 before bed. It's really a matter of self experimentation.

 

[Jenn]

I only take T3 or coffee and aspirin. Taking T4 doesn't harm, just goes to waste if your liver is not converting it. I don't think taking just T3 is any more harmful than taking a mix, taking too much is taking too much. I only take a nibble off a 25 mg tablet and only with meals. I didn't start taking any at all until I had already been "low/no pufa" ing for a year.

 

[ilovethesea]

I only take T3 or coffee and aspirin. Taking T4 doesn't harm, just goes to waste if your liver is not converting it. I don't think taking just T3 is any more harmful than taking a mix, taking too much is taking too much. I only take a nibble off a 25 mg tablet and only with meals. I didn't start taking any at all until I had already been "low/no pufa" ing for a year.

Hi Jenn, how come you take T3 and not a combined T3/T4 med? (This is not an option for me as I only have 1/2 my thyroid but am really curious.) Do you just have mild hypothyroidism and the T3 is enough to correct? Or are you planning on switching to Cynoplus or an NDT later?

Do you find this happens to you? (RP quote from Danny Roddy's page)

"When I used only Cytomel, any little stress would make me suddenly hypothyroid, and my heart would stop several times in a minute; when I started using some thyroid, USP, that contained both T4 and T3 it stopped happening."

 

[iLoveSugar]

ilovetheasea; many of us take T3 alone, because it's what Ray recommends. The ultimate goal is to eventually take the combo, but T3 alone is more effect, more accurate, and easier to get the right amounts. For someone with issues, T3 alone definitely seems like the safer bet from the get go. I've gone into great detail with RP about this.

 

[ilovethesea]

ilovetheasea; many of us take T3 alone, because it's what Ray recommends. The ultimate goal is to eventually take the combo, but T3 alone is more effect, more accurate, and easier to get the right amounts. For someone with issues, T3 alone definitely seems like the safer bet from the get go. I've gone into great detail with RP about this.

No worries, I'm not trying to get you to change what you are doing... I am just very curious because I have never read anything where he says it's more effective/accurate/safer to take T3 alone. Can you please post the correspondence you had with him?

 

[iLoveSugar]

ilovetheasea; many of us take T3 alone, because it's what Ray recommends. The ultimate goal is to eventually take the combo, but T3 alone is more effect, more accurate, and easier to get the right amounts. For someone with issues, T3 alone definitely seems like the safer bet from the get go. I've gone into great detail with RP about this.

No worries, I'm not trying to get you to change what you are doing... I am just very curious because I have never read anything where he says it's more effective/accurate/safer to take T3 alone. Can you please post the correspondence you had with him?

I am all about self experimenting and I truly do appreciate your input. I think user knowledge is so important; please don't take anything the wrong way. I just updated the other thread.

He tells many people this.

"The liver has to activate T4 for it to work, and if the liver doesn't convert it, extra T4 can lower your gland's activity. When T3 increases after being deficient, it increases your sensitivity to adrenaline, and that can make you anxious, and can stop intestinal action. It takes a few days of continuous T3 action for the adrenaline to adjust down to normal. Dividing a T3 tablet (powder, or small crumbs) into many parts, about one microgram with a meal would be a good place to start. At first, they should be spaced about 8 or 12 hours apart, while you watch for the effects".

"If your liver isn't working efficiently, the T4 part of cynoplus can accumulate, preventing the active T3 from working. Cynomel is just T3, there's no T4 to accumulate, and you can feel the effect quickly. It allows you to adjust the dose faster".

"T3 is basic to the normal metabolic rate. It acts so quickly that your feet, like your heart rate, are important guides to its use".

"If the liver isn't working right, T4 can't work. That's the reason the combination or T3 alone can be so much more consistently effective. T4 is valuable for lowering TSH and for allowing the liver to regulate T3 as needed. T3 is the one that increases energy production, temperature, heart rate, oxygen use, etc".

"When I first used it (T3), I tried one 25 mcg tablet in the morning, and one in the evening. After two or three weeks of doing that, I found that I was becoming extremely hypothyroid in the evening, before I took the second tablet. After experimenting, I found that it was better to take repeated small doses during the day, because the liver produces more enzymes to destroy the excess, and then it keeps excreting it faster, so it becomes necessary to take more to avoid becoming hypothyroid. In the short run, you can tell when you have enough because you feel good, don't have food cravings, have good memory and clear thinking, and feel optimistic".

"It's important to check pulse rate when you take larger amounts of T3; a dose of 8 mcg will usually increase the rate about 30 minutes after it's chewed and swallowed".

"With T3, the effect is quick (starting within a few seconds when you chew it), and decreasing gradually after about two hours, so it's possible, in a fairly short time, to explore the effects of different amounts of it, and the way it accumulates in the body, with increasing effects. It's helpful to keep notes of the exact time, the amount, and heart rate".

"Of course, at the beginning 10 or more (mcg T3) at a time will be going into such an empty body that the bloodstream level hardly reaches normal until after several doses, it's a matter of watching for reactions".

"If your liver isn't working efficiently, the T4 part of cynoplus can accumulate, preventing the active T3 from working. Cynomel is just T3, there's no T4 to accumulate, and you can feel the effect quickly. It allows you to adjust the dose faster".

 

[j.]

In that quote Peat says that T3 alone OR THE COMBINATION is more effective. You make it sound like he left the second part.

 

[iLoveSugar]

In that quote Peat says that T3 alone OR THE COMBINATION is more effective. You make it sound like he left the second part.

Huh? There are several quotes there. The last one speaks for itself.