FREEZING hands and feet

HDD

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iLoveSugar said:
Took 48 mcg of T3 yesterday (4x 12mcg doses), and still didn't warm up at all.

There is a story of a woman who initially needed 12 grains. Has RP recommended to you how to increase the t3?


"Since T3 has a short half life, it should be taken frequently. If the liver isn't producing a noticeable amount of T3, it is usually helpful to take a few micorgrams per hour. Since it restores respiration and metabolic efficiency very quickly, it isn't usually necessary to take it every hour or two, but until normal temperature and pulse have been achieved and stabilized, sometimes it's necessary to take it four or more times during the day. T4 acts by being changed to T3, so it tends to accumulate in the body, and on a given dose, usually reaches a steady concentration after about two weeks. "
 
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iLoveSugar

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Haagendazendiane said:
Ok, sorry, I just read back thru this thread and read you had been taking cytomel for months with no results.

Are you monitoring your temperature and pulse throughout the day?

Your basal temperature?

I was but pretty much stopped because I could never get it to raise (above 97.8).
j. said:
iLoveSugar said:
Recent quotes to me from RP:

Have you already tried cynoplus and it didn't work for you?

I have cynoplus, and take a quarter tablet before bed, but notice nothing. I also started out with this, before buying T3.

Haagendazendiane said:
iLoveSugar said:
Took 48 mcg of T3 yesterday (4x 12mcg doses), and still didn't warm up at all.

There is a story of a woman who initially needed 12 grains. Has RP recommended to you how to increase the t3?


"Since T3 has a short half life, it should be taken frequently. If the liver isn't producing a noticeable amount of T3, it is usually helpful to take a few micorgrams per hour. Since it restores respiration and metabolic efficiency very quickly, it isn't usually necessary to take it every hour or two, but until normal temperature and pulse have been achieved and stabilized, sometimes it's necessary to take it four or more times during the day. T4 acts by being changed to T3, so it tends to accumulate in the body, and on a given dose, usually reaches a steady concentration after about two weeks. "

We've discussed it many times, but always really boils down to figuring it out myself. I tried for a long time, the few micrograms per hour, but nothing. Recently he said some people need more than 10, hence the reason for taking larger doses now.
 

HDD

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I just found some old notes I made from the beginning of October, 2012. My basal temperature was around 96 and I only reached 98 one afternoon after painting walls for an hour. Now, a year later, I usually wake with a temperature of 97.9 and once it was 98.1 ( yesterday). My temperature used to drop after breakfast and now it climbs to 98.6 and stays up. I don't have the really low temperatures anymore and since starting the cynoplus/cynomel the tension in my neck and shoulders has decreased. It has taken over a year to get to this point and I expect to only get better.

Hang in there and keep trying all the varied suggestions. Keeping a journal of what you do and how you feel could be helpful. I sporadically wrote notes about my temperature and pulse, so was glad to find the one from last year to see the progress I made.
 
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Haagendazendiane said:
I just found some old notes I made from the beginning of October, 2012. My basal temperature was around 96 and I only reached 98 one afternoon after painting walls for an hour. Now, a year later, I usually wake with a temperature of 97.9 and once it was 98.1 ( yesterday). My temperature used to drop after breakfast and now it climbs to 98.6 and stays up. I don't have the really low temperatures anymore and since starting the cynoplus/cynomel the tension in my neck and shoulders has decreased. It has taken over a year to get to this point and I expect to only get better.

Hang in there and keep trying all the varied suggestions. Keeping a journal of what you do and how you feel could be helpful. I sporadically wrote notes about my temperature and pulse, so was glad to find the one from last year to see the progress I made.

This encouragement is what I need! Thanks! :):
 

natedawggh

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Isn't Cytomel synthetic? If your hands and feet are always cold its just not working for you. Have you tried the natural, desiccated thyroid meds? Also, are you getting enough protein, zinc and copper——all essential for thyroid hormone to work correctly? Cottage cheese. Also, sources that include the conditionally essential amino acid taurine can help—oysters, dark fowl meat like duck, and dark Turkey meat. Synthetic taurine (like in energy drinks) isn't the same but may help. Try natural sources first. Definitely go on natural desiccated thyroid though.
 
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iLoveSugar

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natedawggh said:
Isn't Cytomel synthetic? If your hands and feet are always cold its just not working for you. Have you tried the natural, desiccated thyroid meds? Also, are you getting enough protein, zinc and copper——all essential for thyroid hormone to work correctly? Cottage cheese. Also, sources that include the conditionally essential amino acid taurine can help—oysters, dark fowl meat like duck, and dark Turkey meat. Synthetic taurine (like in energy drinks) isn't the same but may help. Try natural sources first. Definitely go on natural desiccated thyroid though.

Always cold; but not sure if my dose has been high enough? I also have tried NDT (Nature-Throid), and felt nothing either. Ray strongly recommended Cynomel or cynoplus also, due to the crazy and dangerous fillers in NDT. Protein- I am getting a nice amount, although not quite 100g daily. Probably about 60-70. Not sure what includes zinc and copper, maybe fish? If so, I do not eat any shellfish. I bought cottage cheese last week to try and it turned my stomach. It disgusted me. I bought a powdered supplement; taurine. RP says it could help with my daily fatigue. I stopped taking it after 4-5 days, I didn't notice anything.
 

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iLoveSugar said:
Always cold; but not sure if my dose has been high enough? I also have tried NDT (Nature-Throid), and felt nothing either. Ray strongly recommended Cynomel or cynoplus also, due to the crazy and dangerous fillers in NDT. Protein- I am getting a nice amount, although not quite 100g daily. Probably about 60-70. Not sure what includes zinc and copper, maybe fish? If so, I do not eat any shellfish. I bought cottage cheese last week to try and it turned my stomach. It disgusted me. I bought a powdered supplement; taurine. RP says it could help with my daily fatigue. I stopped taking it after 4-5 days, I didn't notice anything.

How long were you on the combined T3/T4 meds? You can't expect it to work the same way as T3 only, with immediate results. T4 takes time to build up in the tissues, that's why Broda Barnes only recommended increasing dosages every 2 months. Some people don't start to feel any effects until 6-8 wks.

RP recommends NDT anyway for long term, so I don't think it's a good idea to get stuck messing around on the T3... I think that part of his message confuses a lot of people. If you're freezing cold and have low body temperature and low pulse then chances are you need T3 and T4 to correct your hypothyroidism.
 
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ilovethesea said:
iLoveSugar said:
Always cold; but not sure if my dose has been high enough? I also have tried NDT (Nature-Throid), and felt nothing either. Ray strongly recommended Cynomel or cynoplus also, due to the crazy and dangerous fillers in NDT. Protein- I am getting a nice amount, although not quite 100g daily. Probably about 60-70. Not sure what includes zinc and copper, maybe fish? If so, I do not eat any shellfish. I bought cottage cheese last week to try and it turned my stomach. It disgusted me. I bought a powdered supplement; taurine. RP says it could help with my daily fatigue. I stopped taking it after 4-5 days, I didn't notice anything.

How long were you on the combined T3/T4 meds? You can't expect it to work the same way as T3 only, with immediate results. T4 takes time to build up in the tissues, that's why Broda Barnes only recommended increasing dosages every 2 months. Some people don't start to feel any effects until 6-8 wks.

RP recommends NDT anyway for long term, so I don't think it's a good idea to get stuck messing around on the T3... I think that part of his message confuses a lot of people. If you're freezing cold and have low body temperature and low pulse then chances are you need T3 and T4 to correct your hypothyroidism.

After many emails back and fourth with RP, he says T3 alone is better at first to adjust and more reliable. T4 will not convert properly if the liver health isn't great.
 

ilovethesea

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iLoveSugar said:
After many emails back and fourth with RP, he says T3 alone is better at first to adjust and more reliable. T4 will not convert properly if the liver health isn't great.

Do you have a liver issue? How do you know your liver health isn't great?

I had very elevated liver enzymes and was at the point where my doctor wanted me to get a liver biopsy, but they went down when I stopped listening to her and got on NDT. The hypo was the cause of the liver problem.
 

HDD

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iLoveSugar said:
natedawggh said:
Isn't Cytomel synthetic? If your hands and feet are always cold its just not working for you. Have you tried the natural, desiccated thyroid meds? Also, are you getting enough protein, zinc and copper——all essential for thyroid hormone to work correctly? Cottage cheese. Also, sources that include the conditionally essential amino acid taurine can help—oysters, dark fowl meat like duck, and dark Turkey meat. Synthetic taurine (like in energy drinks) isn't the same but may help. Try natural sources first. Definitely go on natural desiccated thyroid though.

Always cold; but not sure if my dose has been high enough? I also have tried NDT (Nature-Throid), and felt nothing either. Ray strongly recommended Cynomel or cynoplus also, due to the crazy and dangerous fillers in NDT. Protein- I am getting a nice amount, although not quite 100g daily. Probably about 60-70. Not sure what includes zinc and copper, maybe fish? If so, I do not eat any shellfish. I bought cottage cheese last week to try and it turned my stomach. It disgusted me. I bought a powdered supplement; taurine. RP says it could help with my daily fatigue. I stopped taking it after 4-5 days, I didn't notice anything.


You can take a selenium supplement if you aren't eating wild shrimp or other source of selenium. Check the supplement section for brand to use. There is a recipe someone posted using cottage cheese that uses gelatin, cocoa, and sugar to make it sort of like a brownie.

Here is the recipe if you want to try it.


1 cup low-fat cottage cheese
3 tbsp gelatin
1 tbsp coccoa powder or half coccoa powder/half instant coffee
drop of vanilla extract
sugar, honey, stevia to taste
 
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ilovethesea said:
iLoveSugar said:
After many emails back and fourth with RP, he says T3 alone is better at first to adjust and more reliable. T4 will not convert properly if the liver health isn't great.

Do you have a liver issue? How do you know your liver health isn't great?

I had very elevated liver enzymes and was at the point where my doctor wanted me to get a liver biopsy, but they went down when I stopped listening to her and got on NDT. The hypo was the cause of the liver problem.

I have Nature Throid and tried for 2 weeks with it. Felt nothing.
 

ilovethesea

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iLoveSugar said:
Ray strongly recommended Cynomel or cynoplus also, due to the crazy and dangerous fillers in NDT.

Honestly you've kind of got to choose your battles. Crazy and dangerous is a bit exaggerated :) Many many Peat followers take NDT instead of Cynoplus, it's really a matter of what is available to you and what you feel best on... that's not always the textbook "purest" option.

I take Erfa and like it. I also think Thiroyd sounds very good. When I talked to RP about Erfa he said he just didn't know enough about it - it's a Canadian company. Armour used to be the best but the formulation has changed.

Just sounds like you're trying to do "textbook Ray Peat" to the letter and maybe it's slowing down your results? I felt that way at the beginning too because I wanted him to tell me the "answers" - but honestly, you've kind of got to jump in and figure it out by trial and error. Like you, I was very timid about thyroid at the beginning but it was only when I made bigger increases that I got improvements. I'm glad I didn't waste time with T3, as what I really needed was a combined T3/T4 med.
 

ilovethesea

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iLoveSugar said:
I have Nature Throid and tried for 2 weeks with it. Felt nothing.

2 weeks is nothing - you need to stay on the same dose for 2 months. This is the Broda Barnes protocol:

Starting dose : The size of a proper starting dose of thyroid will vary with the age and size of the patient. Usually a child under 3 years will not need more than one-quarter grain daily. By the age of six, one-half grain may be used in the beginning. A teenager or adult may safely be started on one grain daily. For a particularly large man or woman, two grains may be used - but no more than that at the beginning.
Further dosage : The starting dosage should be maintained for about two months. After that, if necessary, the dosage may be increased.

This is the biggest mistake people make with NDT, imo.

I don't know anything about Nature Throid, sorry.
 
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Nature Throid is really the same as Armour or other NDT. It's very reputable in the thyroid community. In any event, T3 is the active thyroid hormone, so taking it often should definitely allow us to notice 'something'. T4 has to convert to it anyways.
 

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"T3, by lowering stress, sometimes reveals a low basal metabolic rate, that was hidden by high stress hormones. The body produces about 4 mcg of T3 per hour, so taking more than that can interfere with regulatory processes. It's helpful to use the resting pulse rate, and the 24 hour temperature curve, along with other signs, such as mood, appearance of veins on the hands, etc. The peak temperature should be in the afternoon."

"I occasionally see that happen [T3 WILL CAUSE LOW TEMP/PULSE]; sometimes people have had their pulse rate decrease 40 or 50 beats per minute. The temperature of your fingers, toes, and nose helps to interpret the balance between stress and thyroid; your fingers should be less cold as your metabolic rate comes up. In extreme hypothyroidism, the hands and feet can be very cold while the oral temperature looks o.k.; then as the metabolic rate increases, the difference between fingers and mouth decreases."

(Bold and underline mine)

Thought this from Danny Roddy's "Ray Peat's Brain" might be helpful.
 
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j.

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ilovethesea said:
T4 takes time to build up in the tissues, that's why Broda Barnes only recommended increasing dosages every 2 months. Some people don't start to feel any effects until 6-8 wks.

Peat I think says it takes about 2 weeks for the effects to build up.
 
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j. said:
iLoveSugar, what was your dose of the NDT?

1/2 grain - 1 grain in morning. The doc didn't really know much who prescribed it.
When discussing with Peat though, he said it wasn't your typical fillers and they could be very dangerous.
 

HDD

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Some more from "Ray Peat's Brain"

NOT RESPONDING TO THYROID

"If you are eating enough protein, about 100 grams, and salt and thyroid, then I would consider the steroids--something might be interfering with your production of pregnenolone and DHEA. Things that could do that would be very low cholesterol, or a deficiency of vitamin A (retinol), or possibly other deficiencies."

"If your cholesterol is above 200, and the thyroid supplements didn't warm you up, it's possible that something is interfering with your steroid synthesis, which might be a deficiency of something like vitamin A, or interference from something like iron or carotene. Have you tried a supplement of pregnenolone or DHEA? Were any other hormones, such as prolactin, measured? If you are taking the aspirin regularly, you should make sure to get vitamin K, from kale, liver, or a supplement. Anemia, like cold feet, is a common sign of low thyroid function."
 

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