Finally Cured From Post Finasteride Syndrome

[MichaelZurich]

Hi michael , that's great news , the guy on curezone said the stool test came back negative intitially but then showed up positive on a retest , so you probably need to check a 2nd parasite specialist if 1st test isn't telling

Hey I actually just asked a friend and he said that he had to give samples on 3 different days. Hope that will be enough. But I already thought about that and will not only visit one specialist if negative in the first place. To me it makes so much sense that it could be that our guts are being vulnerable because of Fin and that it would be beneficial to support or fix the gut too.

 

[madis l]

Hey I actually just asked a friend and he said that he had to give samples on 3 different days. Hope that will be enough. But I already thought about that and will not only visit one specialist if negative in the first place. To me it makes so much sense that it could be that our guts are being vulnerable because of Fin and that it would be beneficial to support or fix the gut too.

Agreed , fixing the gut is a huge part of any potential recovery and probably the most important one , an imbalanced/damaged gut will lead to an overgrowth of harmful bacteria colonizing the genital area / prostate preventing the tissues from responding to hormones and causing inflamation , it'll also cause other damages through blood stream and attack the brain as the brain / gut are interconnected , it can be an explanation to why most pfsers still experience side effects despite having serum levels in range , it'll also explain why many people exeprienced recoveries (even brief ones ) via hormones or some anti-fungals herbs like tribulus , manipulating hormones will lead to a temporarily shift in the gut microbiome and the brain in response , making the "shift " permanent is the key in my opinion , my view is that during it's use finasteride alters our neuroendocrine system which will alter our gut in return , hormones will return to their normal values after finasteride cessasation but it's not the case for the bacteria in the gut microbiome (and neurochemicals in the brain as a consequence because the gut/brain are interconnected ) , the imbalance will stick , of course at this stage it's only an hypothesis but melcangi's recent study is comforting this idea Alterations of gut microbiota composition in post-finasteride patients: a pilot study , his next study will be much more telling if they manage to get the necessary funds ( they're struggling to get the funds due to little contribution from pfs sufferers ..... )

In the list above you've got some sympthoms of an intestinal pathogen called candida , pathogens can cause sexual dysfunction too by altering/preventing hormones activities in specific tissue , we've seen that with the guy on curezon and another guy on propecia help ,so you can see some similarities with pfs which suggest that they may have a shared mechanism

 

[madis l]

Here are the "less comons " sympthoms of candida according to the same website :

" The symptoms listed above might be the most common signs of a Candida problem, but they are far from the only ones. A chronic gut imbalance can affect your hormone and neurotransmitter levels, your immune system, your liver, and much more.

The signs of Candida overgrowth can also include any of the symptoms listed below. If you recognize a few of these, along with some of the more common symptoms listed above, it might be time to evaluate whether poor gut health might be causing your health issues. If you have a wide selection of seemingly-unrelated symptoms, Candida albicans might be to blame.

• Acid reflux
• Acne
• Allergies
• Asthma
• Bleeding gums
• Bloating
• Body odor
• Constipation
• Cracked tongue
• Cravings for sugary snacks
• Crying spells
• Diarrhea
• Dizziness
• Flatulence
• Flu-like symptoms
• Fungal skin rash
• Halitosis
• Inability to focus
• Inability to lose weight
• Indigestion
• Insomnia
• Irritability
• Itchy anus
• Itchy eyes
• Low libido
• Mucus in stool
• Muscle aches and stiffness
• Nausea
• Panic attacks
• Persistent extreme fatigue
• Poor coordination
• Poor memory
• Psoriasis
• Sensitivities to fragrances and chemicals
• Sensitivity to light
• Stomach cramps
• Water retention "

Ps : just to point out that i'm not saying we have a candida overgrowth , i'm just implying that pfs and pathogens overgrowth seem to have a shared mechanism

 

[Vicecaz]

I ordered a few days ago a few vials of HCG. With covid, it should be delayed and arrive in around 10/20 days.
Got off Ultra Hard a few days ago, now taking a few herbs. Honestly, I feel a little bit suppressed and can't wait to start HCG

Any updates from those following a cycle?

 

[madis l]

I ordered a few days ago a few vials of HCG. With covid, it should be delayed and arrive in around 10/20 days.
Got off Ultra Hard a few days ago, now taking a few herbs. Honestly, I feel a little bit suppressed and can't wait to start HCG

Any updates from those following a cycle?

Any benefits from ultra hard ? i've looked into it but i'm afraid it may damage the liver which is already weakened in most pfsers , mainly due to poor gastrointestinal tract function

 

[John W]

Any benefits from ultra hard ? i've looked into it but i'm afraid it may damage the liver which is already weakened in most pfsers , mainLy due to poor gastrointestinal tract function

lad, androsterone is great for the liver. Look at the studies behind it. Also, not every PFS chap has gut issues. I agree that there’s some merit there but let’s not talk in absolutes that we can’t back up for everyone. Each case is different.

 

[madis l]

lad, androsterone is great for the liver. Look at the studies behind it. Also, not every PFS chap has gut issues. I agree that there’s some merit there but let’s not talk in absolutes that we can’t back up for everyone. Each case is different.

PFS isn't an homogeneous group , it hits us all differently that's something we agree on , however i think most seem to have a less than optimal gut , that's something i gathered from pfs forums and melancgi's recent study is comforting that , so there's a scientific corroboration , many people have an altered gut microbiome even if their gut function seem normal

With regard to androsterones , i think at high doses it may cause problems as every other anabolic compound , bear in mind that some people have got pfs-like sympthoms from anabolic compounds use

One study here about prohormones (including androsterone) Prohormone supplement 3β-hydroxy-5α-androst-1-en-17-one enhances resistance training gains but impairs user health - PubMed
I'm not saying that people should steer clear of ultra hard and other prohormones , i may look into it myself but caution is needed when it comes to the dosage , throwing 5 pumps a day which equate to 625 mg of androsterone seems out of whack even for a bodybuilder (for whom the product was designed for ) , maybe 1 or 2 pumps a day would do the trick

 

[sladerunner69]

Somebody compiled a great list of people who benefitted from TRT (and other hormonal therapies)

TRT therapy - positive results on the whole but negative views held by forum members

He came to the conclusion most had a posititive experience even though the sentiment on HLT forum is negative in regards to TRT. This conclusion also supports my view of the HLT forum, mods promoting a climate of fear, hopelessness and lying about therapies that helped PFS victims.

Some of the mods also promote the wildest conspiracy theories that for example people who post recovery stories are fake, etc. It's a toxic forum and that place should've been the home for PFS victims...

Yes the mods of propeciahelp were anything but helpful as a guy who recently crashed. I remember being very lost until I found this forum back in 2013.

I have always wonderred about trying some TRT, but could never figure out how I would get a hold of the drugs. I suppose it would have to be through a doctor, but very few doctors are willing to prescribed it to someone under 45.

I am going to continue on to 6 months of HCG treatment before evalutating and trying anything new.

 

[sladerunner69]

Agreed , fixing the gut is a huge part of any potential recovery and probably the most important one , an imbalanced/damaged gut will lead to an overgrowth of harmful bacteria colonizing the genital area / prostate preventing the tissues from responding to hormones and causing inflamation , it'll also cause other damages through blood stream and attack the brain as the brain / gut are interconnected , it can be an explanation to why most pfsers still experience side effects despite having serum levels in range , it'll also explain why many people exeprienced recoveries (even brief ones ) via hormones or some anti-fungals herbs like tribulus , manipulating hormones will lead to a temporarily shift in the gut microbiome and the brain in response , making the "shift " permanent is the key in my opinion , my view is that during it's use finasteride alters our neuroendocrine system which will alter our gut in return , hormones will return to their normal values after finasteride cessasation but it's not the case for the bacteria in the gut microbiome (and neurochemicals in the brain as a consequence because the gut/brain are interconnected ) , the imbalance will stick , of course at this stage it's only an hypothesis but melcangi's recent study is comforting this idea Alterations of gut microbiota composition in post-finasteride patients: a pilot study , his next study will be much more telling if they manage to get the necessary funds ( they're struggling to get the funds due to little contribution from pfs sufferers ..... )

In the list above you've got some sympthoms of an intestinal pathogen called candida , pathogens can cause sexual dysfunction too by altering/preventing hormones activities in specific tissue , we've seen that with the guy on curezon and another guy on propecia help ,so you can see some similarities with pfs which suggest that they may have a shared mechanism

The symptoms are similar to candida/fungal/bacterial overgrowth but in my own view it has to due with the vagus nerve. Because 5-ar is downregulated there is less of the neuroprotective steroids like 5a-dhp, DHT, allopregnenlone, etc. The Vagus Nerve begins to functional sub-optimally, which impacts everything from the liver, the gut, to the brain, to muscle contraction etc. This is basically a "demyelinated nerve disease" like MS, but it is the result of an acute downregulation of 5-ar, and isn't immune-related like MS probably is. The lowerred vagus nerve function can probably result in a higher susceptibility to infections like cadida as well. I know I've already benefitted a lot from starting a gut cleanse this week, which has really improved my brain fog quite a bit.

 

[madis l]

The symptoms are similar to candida/fungal/bacterial overgrowth but in my own view it has to due with the vagus nerve. Because 5-ar is downregulated there is less of the neuroprotective steroids like 5a-dhp, DHT, allopregnenlone, etc. The Vagus Nerve begins to functional sub-optimally, which impacts everything from the liver, the gut, to the brain, to muscle contraction etc. This is basically a "demyelinated nerve disease" like MS, but it is the result of an acute downregulation of 5-ar, and isn't immune-related like MS probably is. The lowerred vagus nerve function can probably result in a higher susceptibility to infections like cadida as well. I know I've already benefitted a lot from starting a gut cleanse this week, which has really improved my brain fog quite a bit.

I don't think finasteride inhibits 5-ar permanently like some have suggested (there's no scientific support to comfort that theory) as far as i know once you stop using the drug , 5ar activity will resume , something else is altering our chemicals in the brain and making some tissues insensitive to hormones , i believe the gut microbiome plays a significant role in that

 

[MitchMitchell]

The more I think about it all the more I’m positive we have a massive dopamine deficiency in the west which causes all of those neuro degenerations of course, but also local inflammation, hair loss, ED you name it. There’s a big problem with serotoninergic lifestyles and that’s why I think it makes sense to triple up red meat, sugar, Dark chocolate consumption. People always look at “unhealthy dudes with perfect hair” well what do they eat? Whatever makes them feel good. Dopamine +++

HCG does nothing but stimulate enzymes that convert test into DHT and preg into allopregnanolone, both being important at the dopamine and gaba level.

So imo it always traces back to tweaking serotonin-adrenaline-cortisol.

good luck without drugs though. I don’t think the brain has that much plasticity.

 

[madis l]

The more I think about it all the more I’m positive we have a massive dopamine deficiency in the west which causes all of those neuro degenerations of course, but also local inflammation, hair loss, ED you name it. There’s a big problem with serotoninergic lifestyles and that’s why I think it makes sense to triple up red meat, sugar, Dark chocolate consumption. People always look at “unhealthy dudes with perfect hair” well what do they eat? Whatever makes them feel good. Dopamine +++

HCG does nothing but stimulate enzymes that convert test into DHT and preg into allopregnanolone, both being important at the dopamine and gaba level.

So imo it always traces back to tweaking serotonin-adrenaline-cortisol.

good luck without drugs though.

A host of neurosteroids / neurotransmitters are altered but we've got to the find the reason which is causing that deficiency , sugar and dark chocolate will trigger our sympthoms to a whole new level , they're certainly not helpful

 

[stopfin]

Hi.
I'm new at this forum. Quit fin 12/18 and crashed, got better for about 2 months just to get all the symptoms back except the depression and brain fog. Finally found a good doctor (also Mr Zitzmann) and was diagnosed with 2nd hypogonadism (everything's low, T, DHT, LH, estrogen, vitamin D).
I was prescribed tamoxifen early 2020 and took that for 5 months, did bad on it, but improved severely once about 4-5 weeks off tamoxifen - except the insomnia. Then I started ultra hard 4 weeks in October '20 by 5 pumps (read and swole about it that it might help with sleep) and I guess it suppressed me again, since I'm suffering again from low T symptoms. Beginning of this week I started with the hCG protocol. I hope I can start my HPTA again.

 

[MitchMitchell]

A host of neurosteroids / neurotransmitters are altered but we've got to the find the reason which is causing that deficiency , sugar and dark chocolate will trigger our sympthoms to a whole new level , they're certainly not helpful

I’m guessing that it’s the lack of dopamine at large which triggers the increased activity of 5ar as a solution to the causal problem.

But yeah sugar induced dopamine kicks are short term. I think it’s serotonin that should be lowered.

 

[madis l]

I’m guessing that it’s the lack of dopamine at large which triggers the increased activity of 5ar as a solution to the causal problem.

But yeah sugar induced dopamine kicks are short term. I think it’s serotonin that should be lowered.

Maybe but i doubt that an imbalanced dopamine/seretonin ratio will cause all theses sympthoms we're experiencing on it's own , it's more complexe , other chemical imbalances are involved in pfs

 

[MitchMitchell]

Maybe but i doubt that an imbalanced dopamine/seretonin ratio will cause all theses sympthoms we're experiencing on it's own , it's more complexe , other chemical imbalances are involved in pfs

dopamine and GABA come to mind.

5ar seems to be a backup plan for the absence of primary ligands (test, gaba) to key receptors (AR, GABA-A) and stimulates DHT and allopregnanolone formation.

 

[stopfin]

Where exactly in the video (OP) of the polish doc does he describe the dosage of hCG? I didn't find it.

 

[Unknownuser]

Interesting. I was doing good the last couple days because I took Hydrocortisone. Helped me incredibly. Depression was gone. Awesome mood. Extreme energy. Had great libido. Yesterday I ate dark chocolate. And today feel like ***t. Always when I feel like this, a migraine is coming. Something to do with serotonine and dopamine I guess.

 

[JoeKool]

@stopfin remember that video was for hypogonadism and “andropause” , it was designed to show you the safety and efficacy of long term, low dose hcg therapy.

That doctor’s white paper lists higher dosages than we need for pfs, as the mechanism of recovery is similar but with a twist.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/ad3b/79751be7f00f2da9c6807f729fdc55503a25.pdf

thanks to @MichaelZurich for that white paper.

To reiterate as I know the thread is long and derailed a tad in the middle, pfs is a result of the blunting of neurosteroids and our brain’s receptivity to those. Low dose hcg, which is an Lh mimetic, tells our body to create testosterone as well as a whole batch of other downstream hormones and enzymes (whether directly or indirectly, such as estrogen, allopregnanolone and 5ar). Through the slow & steady replenishment, symptoms like depression, anxiety, sleep disorders, sexual function, social withdrawal, all seem to slowly diminish.

Another important point that’s difficult to understand is that blood tests don’t show the neurosteroid issue. So ppl & their doctors still point out “my dht is fine” or “my Lh is fine”, yet clearly something is wrong.

Additionally, though we know of some major neurosteroids like allopregnanolone, dopamine and serotonin, you neither can just adjust one via supplementation & there are others we don’t readily know. In other words, none of us ever mentioned deoxycorticosterone, but it could be affected with fin and who knows how much each of us need? (just an example, not saying it’s affected. Just picking another NS for illustration. This study says it’s not but it’s a single dose of fin)

Studies on neurosteroids XXV. Influence of a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor, finasteride, on rat brain neurosteroid levels and metabolism - PubMed

So to level set here, the low dose HcG replenishes neurosteroids and the increase of testosterone repairs androgen receptors (that’s a benefit of testosterone and it’s why new studies are coming out that once a man takes steroids , they should never be considered natural again and be allowed to compete in tested/natural sports. That’s another discussion though)

I’d like to point out I still see improvements with the newfound functionality of my genitals, something I compare to taking the cast off of an arm after surgery. It’s been weakened since it was limited use (as in during pfs), but through physical therapy, functionality improves.

Hope everyone is doing well

 

[stopfin]

@stopfin remember that video was for hypogonadism and “andropause” , it was designed to show you the safety and efficacy of long term, low dose hcg therapy.

That doctor’s white paper lists higher dosages than we need for pfs, as the mechanism of recovery is similar but with a twist.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/ad3b/79751be7f00f2da9c6807f729fdc55503a25.pdf

thanks to @MichaelZurich for that white paper.

To reiterate as I know the thread is long and derailed a tad in the middle, pfs is a result of the blunting of neurosteroids and our brain’s receptivity to those. Low dose hcg, which is an Lh mimetic, tells our body to create testosterone as well as a whole batch of other downstream hormones and enzymes (whether directly or indirectly, such as estrogen, allopregnanolone and 5ar). Through the slow & steady replenishment, symptoms like depression, anxiety, sleep disorders, sexual function, social withdrawal, all seem to slowly diminish.

Another important point that’s difficult to understand is that blood tests don’t show the neurosteroid issue. So ppl & their doctors still point out “my dht is fine” or “my Lh is fine”, yet clearly something is wrong.

Additionally, though we know of some major neurosteroids like allopregnanolone, dopamine and serotonin, you neither can just adjust one via supplementation & there are others we don’t readily know. In other words, none of us ever mentioned deoxycorticosterone, but it could be affected with fin and who knows how much each of us need? (just an example, not saying it’s affected. Just picking another NS for illustration. This study says it’s not but it’s a single dose of fin)

Studies on neurosteroids XXV. Influence of a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor, finasteride, on rat brain neurosteroid levels and metabolism - PubMed

So to level set here, the low dose HcG replenishes neurosteroids and the increase of testosterone repairs androgen receptors (that’s a benefit of testosterone and it’s why new studies are coming out that once a man takes steroids , they should never be considered natural again and be allowed to compete in tested/natural sports. That’s another discussion though)

I’d like to point out I still see improvements with the newfound functionality of my genitals, something I compare to taking the cast off of an arm after surgery. It’s been weakened since it was limited use (as in during pfs), but through physical therapy, functionality improves.

Hope everyone is doing well

Thanks for your explanation. So you think one does also benefit from low dose hCG with hypogonadism like blood hormone levels? just to make sure I'm not under dosing since I primarily suffer from physical sides instead of mental/psychological (except for insomnia)