Thoughts On 5ar And Post Finasteride Syndrome

[bk_]

Does anyone here think that Finasteride can trigger ALS?

Having significant symptoms of ALS right now.

These things make me think it is plausible:

-Glutathione reduction
- Testosterone dysregulation
- Estrogen increase

It’s plausible due to the severe suppression of neurosteroids as shown in a particular study.

 

[outcast1979]

For sure I think the predominate problem is 5ar downregulation in the brain. Like I said any attempts to increase DHT peripherally makes me worse. I read a post from a guy on propecia help who claimed Proviron 'shrunk his ****'. I think there are varying degrees of severity with PFS. The worst being when it is downregulated in the Brain. My biggest improvements so far have come from 'slamming' the GABAA receptor with high doses of Nicotinamide, and valium. Every aspect of my condition improved, mental and physical. Libido, Brainfog, memory, mood. My muscles tightened, I started to sweat again, I started to get spontaneous erections, temperature in my **** increased, my shrinkage reversed. Whereas creatine, and sorghum made me dramatically worse. Shrunk my **** ect. Looking at countless posts from propeciahelp, this is not uncommon. This is a huge clue that the problem resides in the brain.

Nicotinic acid help me with those sides,along with that,it made my body hard and improved my erection.Last two days i had used 3gr per day,the next days i will up to 5g per day to see what happen.One thing that impress me in past was the use of a anti inflammatory that i took for my teeth,in 2 days i feel like i was before propecia,instant pleasure and happy.I cannot figure out why i had that response back then from this med.

 

[bk_]

Nicotinic acid help me with those sides,along with that,it made my body hard and improved my erection.Last two days i had used 3gr per day,the next days i will up to 5g per day to see what happen.One thing that impress me in past was the use of a anti inflammatory that i took for my teeth,in 2 days i feel like i was before propecia,instant pleasure and happy.I cannot figure out why i had that response back then from this med.

What were the ingredients of the anti-inflammatory?

Also to be clear you were taking up to 5g of nicotinic acid which is the flushing kind of niacin (not be confused with niacinimide)? Did you experience any negative side effects at such a dose?

 

[outcast1979]

What were the ingredients of the anti-inflammatory?

Also to be clear you were taking up to 5g of nicotinic acid which is the flushing kind of niacin (not be confused with niacinimide)? Did you experience any negative side effects at such a dose?

i have used 3g per day,no side effects,just a slight burning sensation of the skin,yes i use nicotinic acid the flushing form.I am not a doctor to suggest to people who suffer from social anxiety and depression that this anti inflammatory its the cure,it was my personal reaction that was life changer the time that i had took it.The ingredient is
Niflumic acid.Also when i stop the usage of this anti inflammatory the bad mental state came back.I hope someone to find something to cure this hell.The next things i consider to try is 5dhp and Hcg.

 

[outcast1979]

I do pregnenolone and thyroid for the most part. When I take progesterone I drop pregnenolone but continue with thyroid of course.

How many mg of preg do you suggest?

 

[outcast1979]

I think this is it. Finasteride messes up the activity of 5ar in the nervous system, but 5ar is only necessary when you don't have enough energy to produce progesterone to counteract estrogen. 5ar allows you to produce powerful estrogen antagonists with less metabolic energy, but at the cost of hair loss. Since hair loss sufferers are by definition metabolically compromised and producing less progesterone, they are hit hard with PFS, and the ones in the worst metabolic health who were the most reliant on 5ar-derived neurosteroids get hit the hardest. So that means fixing PFS means restoring energy production to the level that you are able to produce enough progesterone to counteract estrogen without needing 5ar, via thyroid, coffee, PUFA depletion, red light, CO2, etc.

In a sense, it's kind of a blessing in disguise, because fixing PFS means operating at a much higher level of mental functioning than before, because you would be running on progesterone instead of 5ar derivatives.

It is better to take progesterone daily?i cannot find a way to produce progesterone by my self.I hit the gym at least 4 days per week and i have this routine for the past 14 years but my mental symptoms are still the same.I never had problem with my muscles or with my strength after stopping propecia,the damage was on my mental state and of course erectile problems like many others.

 

[outcast1979]

It is my belief that PFS is caused by a down regulation of the 5ar enzyme. At first I thought this was not the case as certain supplements (creatine and sorghum flour) which are known to increase 5ar activity worsened my symptoms. This theory has further been dismissed by the observation that Proviron and other steroids generally worsen symptoms in men. I and many others on this forum and elsewhere have observed that GABA enhancing substances (benzodiazepines, alcohol, marijuana) dramatically improve symptoms, libido, brain fog, memory ect. This has been the case for me, so far the one thing which has produced the most profound improvements has been Valium. It is my belief that the most severe cases of PFS are caused by a 5ar downregulation in the Brain/CNS. Normal blood levels of Testosterone and DHT are observed in PFS sufferers. So any attempts to increase 5ar and/or DHT peripherally without directly increasing 5ar in the Brain/CNS causes a negative feedback on the HPG axis

Haidut found a very interesting study which found that Valium increases expression of the 5ar in the Diencephalon (a section of the forebrain) by more than 2 fold. Caffeine has also been found to increase 5ar in the Diencephalon, and modestly improves my symptoms.


Sex hormones metabolism in the brain: influence of central acting drugs on 5 alpha-reduction in rat diencephalon. - PubMed - NCBI


"...Diencephalon 5 alpha-reductase activity showed a highly significant increase (p less than 0.01) after a single administration of carbamazepine, reserpine, diazepam, phenytoin, phenobarbital or disulfiram. A significant increase (p less than 0.05) was also found after a single administration of methylphenidate, caffeine or methamphetamine."


Opiates also improve my symptoms, others have observed this too. There's a study which shows morphine increases 5ar expression in the CNS of rats.

In vivo evidence for an increase in 5alpha-reductase activity in the rat central nervous system following morphine exposure

In vivo evidence for an increase in 5alpha-reductase activity in the rat central nervous system following morphine exposure

Hossein Amini and Abolhassan Ahmadiani,
Department of Pharmacology, Neuroscience Research Center, Shaheed Beheshti University of Medical Sciences, P.O. Box 19835-355, Tehran, Iran
Received 27 April 2005; revised 5 July 2005; accepted 6 July 2005. Available online 6 September 2005.



Abstract
In the present study, the effects of acute and chronic morphine exposure on testosterone concentrations in the central nervous system (CNS) and serum were investigated in rats. Acute morphine administration (5 mg/kg, sc) reduced significantly testosterone levels in serum and spinal cord but not in the brain.

Following chronic morphine administration (orally for 21 days), the brain testosterone was also significantly reduced as well as serum and spinal cord.

Since, the decrease in testosterone levels following morphine exposure was more obvious in the CNS than serum, we suggested that it cannot be caused by only a direct decline in testosterone levels in periphery, and an increased local metabolism of testosterone in the CNS might be attributed in these effects.

This hypothesis was supported with the findings that pretreatment with finasteride, a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor (5 mg/kg, sc) blocked testosterone elimination from the CNS following morphine exposure.

Moreover, the serum concentration of 5alpha-reduced metabolites of testosterone, dihydrotestosterone and 3alpha-diol glucuronide was increased significantly following chronic morphine exposure, but not after co-treatment with finasteride.

These results suggest that morphine exposure increase the CNS activity of 5alpha-reductase, which is an important metabolizing enzyme for testosterone.

I have also notice many men claim to have a 'full remission of symptoms' when they are sick with the flu. Marcel from AnabolicApex has found a study where the 5ar enzyme increased following treatment with cyclosporine A (an immunosuppressant drug).


Greater conversion of testosterone to 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone, reflecting increased peripheral 5 alpha-reductase activity in nude mice treated ... - PubMed - NCBI


“Following cyclosporine A (CsA) immunosuppressive therapy in kidney grafts, increased body hair growth (hypertrichosis and/or hirsutism) without significant variation in normal circulating plasma androgen levels (as observed in idiopathic hirsutism) has been reported by several authors. Other authors have described increased hair growth in nude mice treated with CsA.”


“After 1 h of incubation, 5 alpha-DHT and other 5 alpha-reduced products formed were separated and quantified using a reverse-phase chromatography column fitted to a flow-through radioactivity detector.”


“5 alpha-DHT formation was found to be increased in the treated groups.”


It could very well be the case that a suppressed immune system significantly increases 5ar activity in the CNS.


Marcel's research from AnabolicApex has found that


Anticonvulsant Potencies of the Enantiomers of the Neurosteroids Androsterone and Etiocholanolone Exceed those of the Natural Forms


Haidut has also found that DHT and it's metabolites increase 5ar stimulation.





It could very well be the case that severe androgen depletion particularly in the Brain, as well as severe pro-GABA receptor stimulating metabolite depletion causes a SEVERE downregulation of the 5ar enzyme. Especially in the Brain/CNS.


It has been observed that blood T and DHT levels are relatively normal in patients with full-blown PFS. It has also been found that 3a-diol-g (intracellular biomarker for 5ar levels) are exceptionally low. Blood levels of T and DHT seem to be a superficial indicator of androgen/5ar status. Since normal levels of T/DHT are often found in the blood of PFS sufferers, merely increasing T/DHT levels in the blood may only serve to induce a negative feedback on the HPG axis. To truly treat PFS one may need to increase 5ar levels in the CNS where the most significant deficiency of 5ar lies.

If it is the case that there is a severe downregulation of 5ar in the CNS, then this explains why men generally get better on GABA enhancing substances (the above study suggests GABA receptor stimulation increases 5ar expression in the Brain). And why they (we) get worse when we merely increase androgens peripherally.

I can confirm when i was on diazepam a derivative of benzo my life was back to pre pfs state.

 

[lampofred]

It is better to take progesterone daily?i cannot find a way to produce progesterone by my self.I hit the gym at least 4 days per week and i have this routine for the past 14 years but my mental symptoms are still the same.I never had problem with my muscles or with my strength after stopping propecia,the damage was on my mental state and of course erectile problems like many others.

I think vitamin D helps to produce progesterone in the brain.

 

[outcast1979]

I think vitamin D helps to produce progesterone in the brain.

Thank you

 

[Canyourepeathat]

I've generally had a pro-sexual effect from Glycine, though I've mostly attributed it to NMDA-modulation and dopamine (etc.). However sometimes I've also crashed, so I thought it was just a superficial modulation of neurotransmitter systems. I think 5g (for 5ar) would be roughly 2-3 spoons (or less), and that should not have a high risk of crashing. That's good and interesting. Taurine has never done anything special for me, just altered how I feel a bit. It can also create a nasty "hardness" in my head which I think I sometimes get from glutamate-imbalance, though I think it is unnatural and can serve as a clue of some wrong inhibition or underactivity, which Taurine's modulation can make worse (either by inhibition or increasing the opposite)

 

[outcast1979]

I've generally had a pro-sexual effect from Glycine, though I've mostly attributed it to NMDA-modulation and dopamine (etc.). However sometimes I've also crashed, so I thought it was just a superficial modulation of neurotransmitter systems. I think 5g (for 5ar) would be roughly 2-3 spoons (or less), and that should not have a high risk of crashing. That's good and interesting. Taurine has never done anything special for me, just altered how I feel a bit. It can also create a nasty "hardness" in my head which I think I sometimes get from glutamate-imbalance, though I think it is unnatural and can serve as a clue of some wrong inhibition or underactivity, which Taurine's modulation can make worse (either by inhibition or increasing the opposite)

I try oregano oil,cause in the past i had success with antibiotics especially amoxicillin.I read that oregano oil is the best natural alternative to anti biotics.

 

[bk_]

How many mg of preg do you suggest?

Start small and observe the effects. When I first took pregnenolone I consumed 6.6mg topically from Haidut and the effects were immediate. Now I only need 3.3mg. For progesterone I will take this topically on days without pregnenolone and respond immediately to 3.3mg. Within seconds colors pop-out and appear brighter and I end with better focus, losing all small addictions and going to bed early. Only downside is that I experience a suppressed libido after the second day of progesterone supplementation.

I believe a major component of PFS is the severe suppression of neurosteroids such as allopregnenolone (a 5ar derivative of progesterone) as shown in a particular study.

 

[outcast1979]

Start small and observe the effects. When I first took pregnenolone I consumed 6.6mg topically from Haidut and the effects were immediate. Now I only need 3.3mg. For progesterone I will take this topically on days without pregnenolone and respond immediately to 3.3mg. Within seconds colors pop-out and appear brighter and I end with better focus, losing all small addictions and going to bed early. Only downside is that I experience a suppressed libido after the second day of progesterone supplementation.

I believe a major component of PFS is the severe suppression of neurosteroids such as allopregnenolone (a 5ar derivative of progesterone) as shown in a particular study.

I have high hopes for pregnenolone,i had try it sometimes and one of those days the colors appear like you side vibrant not dark,also i had feeling that i had before taking propecia.My only problem is,could pregnenolone in low mg to suppress my own production?i am eager to take it,i know the feeling of that day was due to pregnenolone.

 

[Alexandre Lim]

PFS is characterized by frontal cortex damaged... Frontal cortex is reduced in pfs that's why impulsivity anxiety depression and lack of motivation is the main characteristics of pfs people... Frontal cortex is the prime and first body defence against mental stress... What feeds frontal cortex are things(magnesium Retinol potassium testosterone/dhea thiamine Gaba Glycine glucose cholesterol) that enhance 5ar enzymes

It explains why im bedridden.

 

[Alexandre Lim]

PFS is characterized by frontal cortex damaged... Frontal cortex is reduced in pfs that's why impulsivity anxiety depression and lack of motivation is the main characteristics of pfs people... Frontal cortex is the prime and first body defence against mental stress... What feeds frontal cortex are things(magnesium Retinol potassium testosterone/dhea thiamine Gaba Glycine glucose cholesterol) that enhance 5ar enzymes

I make compulsive decisions , anxious easily and I have no motivation.

 

[outcast1979]

I make compulsive decisions , anxious easily and I have no motivation.

Same here,i am on this situation for 15 years,i cannot find a start to fix this problem,i tried niacin a saw some benefits nothing great,i tried tyrosine nothing,then zinc nothing,b5 nothing,5htp nothing,aswaganda nothing,cbd only minor difference in sleep,the problem is hormonal.

 

[Alexandre Lim]

Same here,i am on this situation for 15 years,i cannot find a start to fix this problem,i tried niacin a saw some benefits nothing great,i tried tyrosine nothing,then zinc nothing,b5 nothing,5htp nothing,aswaganda nothing,cbd only minor difference in sleep,the problem is hormonal.

Some people are trying HCg out. You should give it a shot.

 

[bk_]

Same here,i am on this situation for 15 years,i cannot find a start to fix this problem,i tried niacin a saw some benefits nothing great,i tried tyrosine nothing,then zinc nothing,b5 nothing,5htp nothing,aswaganda nothing,cbd only minor difference in sleep,the problem is hormonal.

Problem could be a multitude of things but is typically characterized by suppressed 5ar metabolites especially allopregnenolone.

@outcast1979 Pregnenolone is safe to very high doses,

In a healthy young person or animal, taking even a large dose of pregnenolone has no hormone-like or drug-like action at all. It is unique in this way.

, for more information see article.

@Alexandre Lim Progesterone or 5-alpha DHP greatly helps with motivation, anxiety, and compulsive decisions albeit temporarily (with potential to improve this overall in the long term). Allopregnenolone and other neurosteroids that finasteride suppress are responsible for this.

The latest study from Melcangi’s group found finasteride to cause methylation to 5ar regulating genetics, once you correct your short term problems focus long term on demethylation (see this)

 

[Alexandre Lim]

Problem could be a multitude of things but is typically characterized by suppressed 5ar metabolites especially allopregnenolone.

@outcast1979 Pregnenolone is safe to very high doses, , for more information see article.

@Alexandre Lim Progesterone or 5-alpha DHP greatly helps with motivation, anxiety, and compulsive decisions albeit temporarily (with potential to improve this overall in the long term). Allopregnenolone and other neurosteroids that finasteride suppress are responsible for this.

The latest study from Melcangi’s group found finasteride to cause methylation to 5ar regulating genetics, once you correct your short term problems focus long term on demethylation (see this)

Yeah For sure its neurosteroids issue. Its been 5-6 months im at home lying down all day in front the computer avoiding any interaction and activity. I heard Hcg will fix the 5 ar and neurosteroids. I hope doing this will fix everythjng in my brain as I feel like a. 6 year old kid.

 

[outcast1979]

Problem could be a multitude of things but is typically characterized by suppressed 5ar metabolites especially allopregnenolone.

@outcast1979 Pregnenolone is safe to very high doses, , for more information see article.

@Alexandre Lim Progesterone or 5-alpha DHP greatly helps with motivation, anxiety, and compulsive decisions albeit temporarily (with potential to improve this overall in the long term). Allopregnenolone and other neurosteroids that finasteride suppress are responsible for this.

The latest study from Melcangi’s group found finasteride to cause methylation to 5ar regulating genetics, once you correct your short term problems focus long term on demethylation (see this)

Any way to demethylate 5ar,i mean what do you suggest to kickstart my hormones.