Exercise + Fasting Is Stress, Causes Obesity And IR, And Requires Cortisol Blockade To Reverse

[ecstatichamster]

One year is a long time....

Right there is a huge problem.

How long do you intend on living?

If I live another 40 years, what's one year to get to my desired weight?

Impatience in this area kills us.

 

[ecstatichamster]

very few people benefit from weight loss. Very few.

I think it's more dangerous to lose the weight for most people than simply maintain it.

The risks of weight loss are enormous and constantly the refrain is "lose weight and you'll be healthier". But that confused cause and effect. Cause is health problems, effect is higher weight. Lose the weight and not fix the health problems first? Disastrous.

 

[Regina]

Problem is that most of the people who would even consider this type of extreme intervention are exactly the ones that are so unfit they feel drastic measures are needed. That was the whole point of the thread - extreme measures are probably only safe for young and healthy people, who ironically need them the least. This thread was posted as a counterexample of other threads recommending month long fasts and running as a way to lose weight. The other message that I was hoping to get across is that if there is a weight problem there is usually an endocrine problem, and fasting/running will probably make it worse. So, better to work with endocrinologist and find out what that problem is instead of getting involved in extreme measures that will make things worse in the long run and may even cause a few cases of type I diabetes (through excessive lipolysis) or heart events in the short run.

Such excellent information and very obvious in the people around me.
There is an aikido member participating in a weight-loss pool challenge. Ironically, it's because his knees hurt so much, he can't do the kneeling we do in aikido. He's lost 45 lbs (fasting, juicing, running). I trained with him the other night and I asked him if he was feeling alright. He said, "come to think of it, my joints are way worse."

 

[haidut]

Effect of 6-Month Calorie Restriction on Biomarkers of Longevity, Metabolic Adaptation, and Oxidative Stress in Overweight Individuals
This one might be better to pick apart.

The doctor probably thought you'd get lean by the time you go through puberty. Many doctors do and ignore obesity in childhood when it should be a pretty clear indication something is amiss as children should have higher metabolism than adults.

 

[Thoushant]

you live and you learn

 

[chispas]

I'm all ears if you need lab rats

Currently I have many different lab rats, but thanks. I'm in the process of commercialising my idea. I think powerlifters, gymnasts, crossfitters will take to it straight away. Weightlifters are stuck in a rut with their training ideas, been doing the same thing for 75+ years. It's my goal to show that you can get the results without the conventional training process that takes 10+ years.

I suppose my method is fairly Peat friendly, so if anyone shows interest, I might advertise it through the forum.

 

[Jarman]

very few people benefit from weight loss. Very few.

I think it's more dangerous to lose the weight for most people than simply maintain it.

The risks of weight loss are enormous and constantly the refrain is "lose weight and you'll be healthier". But that confused cause and effect. Cause is health problems, effect is higher weight. Lose the weight and not fix the health problems first? Disastrous.

Can you please clarify why very few people benefit from weight loss? I personally enjoy being lightweight and walking around without hurting my knees and ankles due to extra bodyweight

I agree with tyw's claims below:I'm Losing A Lot Of Weight On Intermittent Fasting

BioSignature review: Are hormones the key to weight loss?

NOTE: I agree with the statement from the article, "Fat is the cause, not the result". Menno (the author) is right that fat regulates the hormones, and not the other way around. Losing excess fat is almost always the solution to those with hormonal problems (unless one is willing to use exogenous hormones).

The exceptions are those with true hormonal regulatory disorders, to which specific and effective treatment needs to be made.​

 

[Ideonaut]

I don't understand the joy some people have for running.
Even with proper shoes and running technique, the amount of stress put on joints and cartilage seems to be immense.
Why bother running over more stimulating activites that are more varied such as sports or easier-on-the-body cardio such as swimming and bike riding?

There is joy in being able to run like the wind without feeling stressed, as I could in my youth. So think it's okay for young people.

 

[sladerunner69]

Problem is that most of the people who would even consider this type of extreme intervention are exactly the ones that are so unfit they feel drastic measures are needed. That was the whole point of the thread - extreme measures are probably only safe for young and healthy people, who ironically need them the least. This thread was posted as a counterexample of other threads recommending month long fasts and running as a way to lose weight. The other message that I was hoping to get across is that if there is a weight problem there is usually an endocrine problem, and fasting/running will probably make it worse. So, better to work with endocrinologist and find out what that problem is instead of getting involved in extreme measures that will make things worse in the long run and may even cause a few cases of type I diabetes (through excessive lipolysis) or heart events in the short run.

This is what happened to my dad. He recently lost about 30 lbs, and everyone was applauding how great and healthy he looked. Never took my diet advice, and drank a few wines or beers every evening. Also began smoking again, (at least I got him to switch to natural tobacco) but it wasn't enough, and he passed away from a sudden and unexpected heart attack. Everyone was particularly shocked because he had just lost so much weight. I'm sure his estrogen and stress hormones were sky high too, his doc had him on tgel.

 

[Tarmander]

Such excellent information and very obvious in the people around me.
There is an aikido member participating in a weight-loss pool challenge. Ironically, it's because his knees hurt so much, he can't do the kneeling we do in aikido. He's lost 45 lbs (fasting, juicing, running). I trained with him the other night and I asked him if he was feeling alright. He said, "come to think of it, my joints are way worse."

My joints hurt way worse when I was very skinny verse now. God it was brutal on my knees. More weight seems to make them stronger sometimes...

 

[Tarmander]

Can you please clarify why very few people benefit from weight loss? I personally enjoy being lightweight and walking around without hurting my knees and ankles due to extra bodyweight

I agree with tyw's claims below:I'm Losing A Lot Of Weight On Intermittent Fasting

BioSignature review: Are hormones the key to weight loss?

NOTE: I agree with the statement from the article, "Fat is the cause, not the result". Menno (the author) is right that fat regulates the hormones, and not the other way around. Losing excess fat is almost always the solution to those with hormonal problems (unless one is willing to use exogenous hormones).

The exceptions are those with true hormonal regulatory disorders, to which specific and effective treatment needs to be made.​

I think the difference he is point at is losing weight vs. being light weight. Not the same thing. After you are over weight, losing weight is a risk to be weighed with keeping the weight. See:

This is what happened to my dad. He recently lost about 30 lbs, and everyone was applauding how great and healthy he looked. Never took my diet advice, and drank a few wines or beers every evening. Also began smoking again, (at least I got him to switch to natural tobacco) but it wasn't enough, and he passed away from a sudden and unexpected heart attack. Everyone was particularly shocked because he had just lost so much weight. I'm sure his estrogen and stress hormones were sky high too, his doc had him on tgel.

Dang dude, im so sorry. Was this recent?

 

[sladerunner69]

I think the difference he is point at is losing weight vs. being light weight. Not the same thing. After you are over weight, losing weight is a risk to be weighed with keeping the weight. See:


Dang dude, im so sorry. Was this recent?

Yeah it was on labor day, exactly 4 weeks ago. I knew my dad wasn't taking care of himself in the proper way, and he was losing weight by essentially going the low-carb paleo route. So I kept telling myself that I needed to show him the proper nutrition methods, introduce him to Ray Peat and metabolism concepts, etc. If I didn't do that I knew it would be a slim chance he would make it to very old age. But he was 60 so he was relatively stubborn in what he believed. I got him off canola/vegetable oils and got him to start using coconut and butter instead, but he still ate a ton of conventional chicken and probably fast food when at work. He was also an evening drinker and smoker so I suppose I can't eb too hard on myself- theres only so much I could do for the guy.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I’m so sorry @sladerunner69

I lost my father recently too.

 

[milk_lover]

May God bless both of your souls, @sladerunner69 and @ecstatichamster. I am scared for my parents now because they are always dieting and often ignore many things I tell them..

 

[ecstatichamster]

May God bless both of your souls, @sladerunner69 and @ecstatichamster. I am scared for my parents now because they are always dieting and often ignore many things I tell them..

thank you.

I have found it is impossible to tell anyone anything they don't want to hear. My dad disappeared down the medical rathole years ago, and nothing I could do about it. I barely have some influence occasionally with my wife. OTOH, that's okay. I can be the example.

My sister in law just quit Fosamax and i think it was from my influence a little. She asked me to send her a protocol which I did. There's a small chance she'll follow it. Not my business really.

That's the essence of staying sane in this world. Byron Katie says there are 3 types of business: yours, mine, and God's (by which she means the universe if you will.) What my sister in law does, or my dad did, was not my business. I try to influence my wife and kids as best I can through example and they are tired of hearing my yakking anyway, LOL.

 

[lollipop]

This is what happened to my dad. He recently lost about 30 lbs, and everyone was applauding how great and healthy he looked. Never took my diet advice, and drank a few wines or beers every evening. Also began smoking again, (at least I got him to switch to natural tobacco) but it wasn't enough, and he passed away from a sudden and unexpected heart attack. Everyone was particularly shocked because he had just lost so much weight. I'm sure his estrogen and stress hormones were sky high too, his doc had him on tgel.

So sorry to hear this @sladerunner69. Must have been tough for you. Sending good thoughts. Interestingly, I think of you and remember your Dad because of the story you told about him recommendating Aspirin to you when you were a high school athlete. I remember thinking how smart that was.

 

[lollipop]

I’m so sorry @sladerunner69

I lost my father recently too.

So sorry to hear @ecstatichamster. Sending good thoughts.

 

[Tarmander]

Yeah it was on labor day, exactly 4 weeks ago. I knew my dad wasn't taking care of himself in the proper way, and he was losing weight by essentially going the low-carb paleo route. So I kept telling myself that I needed to show him the proper nutrition methods, introduce him to Ray Peat and metabolism concepts, etc. If I didn't do that I knew it would be a slim chance he would make it to very old age. But he was 60 so he was relatively stubborn in what he believed. I got him off canola/vegetable oils and got him to start using coconut and butter instead, but he still ate a ton of conventional chicken and probably fast food when at work. He was also an evening drinker and smoker so I suppose I can't eb too hard on myself- theres only so much I could do for the guy.

Gah, yeah...tough lesson to learn, I struggle with it too. I found for myself that often when a relationship was not as close as I wanted, my "help," was a way of me trying to get closer, or substituting "help" for intimacy. When I let go of trying to help, I also have to grieve that the relationship doesn't have much closeness to it, not much open and honesty going on. At least not what I wanted. Sorry again man, and sorry to @ecstatichamster too.

 

[ecstatichamster]

very few people benefit from weight loss. Very few.

I think it's more dangerous to lose the weight for most people than simply maintain it.

The risks of weight loss are enormous and constantly the refrain is "lose weight and you'll be healthier". But that confused cause and effect. Cause is health problems, effect is higher weight. Lose the weight and not fix the health problems first? Disastrous.

there are tons of studies on this. I have a large number of folks I work with and this is what I observe. It is SO common for weight loss to be followed by cancer, for instance, but who adds 1 and 1 to make 2?

This is very flawed but still you can see the trend:

A review and meta-analysis of the effect of weight loss on all-cause mortality risk | Nutrition Research Reviews | Cambridge Core

Intentional weight loss had a small benefit for individuals classified as unhealthy (with obesity-related risk factors) (RR 0·87 (95 % CI 0·77, 0·99); P = 0·028), especially unhealthy obese (RR 0·84 (95 % CI 0·73, 0·97); P = 0·018), but appeared to be associated with slightly increased mortality for healthy individuals (RR 1·11 (95 % CI 1·00, 1·22); P = 0·05), and for those who were overweight but not obese (RR 1·09 (95 % CI 1·02, 1·17); P = 0·008). There was no evidence for weight loss conferring either benefit or risk among healthy obese. In conclusion, the available evidence does not support solely advising overweight or obese individuals who are otherwise healthy to lose weight as a means of prolonging life.

1994 - Weight change and mortality in high-risk, middle-aged men | 1994 May-Jun : Volume 120, Number 3, Page 82 | ACP Journal Club Archives

Weight loss was associated with increased all-cause mortality (RR 1.62, CI 1.18 to 2.23) and CVD mortality (RR 1.61, CI 1.05 to 2.45). Weight cycling was also associated with increased all-cause mortality (RR for cycling ending with loss, 1.76 [CI 1.23 to 2.50], RR for cycling ending with gain, 1.53 [CI 1.13 to 2.07]) and increased CVD mortality (RR for cycling ending with loss, 1.73 [CI 1.08 to 2.79], RR for cycling ending with gain, 1.89 [CI 1.29 to 2.78]). The association between weight change and mortality was not observed in the heaviest men.


https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.e...=Weight_loss_increases_and_fat_loss_decre.pdf

Each standard deviation (s.d.) of weight loss (4.6 kg in Tecumseh, 6.7 kg in Framingham) was estimated to increase the hazard rate by 29% (95% con®dence interval CI), (14%, 47%, respectively) and 39% (95% CI, 25%, 54% respectively), in the two samples. Contrarily, each s.d. of fat loss (10.0 mm in Tecumseh, 4.8 mm in Framingham) was estimated to reduce the hazard rate 15% (95% CI, 4%, 25%) and 17% (95% CI, 8%, 25%) in Tecumseh and Framingham, respectively. Generalisability of these results to severely (that is, body mass index BMI) 34) obese individuals is unclear.

CONCLUSIONS: Among individuals that are not severely obese, weight loss is associated with increased mortality rate and fat loss with decreased mortality rate.

 

[ecstatichamster]

So sorry to hear @ecstatichamster. Sending good thoughts.

thank you. Well, it was his time. I lost him a few years ago really when he was pretty much senile. It gave me time to adjust. Going through that with my mother now too.

My mother to my knowledge doesn't take any pills at all although I really don't know for sure. When dad died he was on 17 different medications.