Exercise + Fasting Is Stress, Causes Obesity And IR, And Requires Cortisol Blockade To Reverse

[haidut]

Docters are so stupid it's unbelievable. In 2012-2013 I was using cortisone for skin problems I was having. After a few months on cortisone I got very weird neurological issues and complained to my doctor about it. He actually thought I was depressed and wanted to give me SSRIs. Not once did it occur to him that maybe it were side effects from the cortisone I was given. When I stopped the cortisone those strange neurological issues went away after a few weeks/months. I never go to doctors again, it's like digging your own grave with the drugs you get.

I feel your pain. Have relatives who took cortisone and gained a lot of weight and one of them got mania symptoms which only went away after a year of basically quitting work. The doctor also thought it was depression and had not even heard of SSRI also causing mania, especially when combined with cortisol.

 

[haidut]

What about slow walking at nature?

That should be fine. Light jogging is probably also OK as long as it is fun and not forced in some way, like "have to run 5 miles today".

 

[haidut]

@haidut
To clarify, Exercise as in running "aerobic exercise" is what is being discussed here?
Lifting weights (obviously not at excessive volumes) is not being discussed as a stressor leading to IR, obesity and elevated cortisol?

Yes, most of the routines that I have seen being discussed as leading to IR are things that can raise FFA and fat oxidation. Resistance training, if done right, should build muscle which raises RMR.

 

[haidut]

Ray peat always talks against fasting and stressful forced exercise, so I'm assuming that most all Peater's follow his diet and regime. Most of all the supplements designed for us lower Cortisol as well. Is this thread just a reinforcement of Peat's ideas?

It is more of a follow up on the thread about fasting lowering T levels. But I get bombarded with emails and PM about whether running 6 miles a day 4 times a week is enough to lose weight, so I thought I post this as an additional pointer.

 

[haidut]

I was into intermittent fasting (16/8) and fasted weight training a few years ago. The first time I tried it I got really good results. A real good lean bulk. Then I stopped for some reason and continued weight lifting but without all the fasting. I got real chub quickly. Two years later I decided to give the intermittent fasting and fasted weight training another shot. On the 16/8 I didn't get any results and had to increase my fast to 23 hours and stuff myself with all my calories in one meal for the day. Well it worked, but it was not sustainable. And also I never got the so called better and faster mental abilities from fasting.
Its still very possible to get fat and insulin resistant after stopping IF and fasted training even when eating in a caloric surplus. I never stopped training when switching between fasting and non fasting, so just the fasting alone is a major stressor on the body.

May I ask how old are you? There is a long running argument here about whether fasting will work for everybody or just the younger/healthier folks.

 

[haidut]

Well, since you used rat studies...

Exercise increases average longevity of female rats despite increased food intake and no growth retardation. - PubMed - NCBI


There's also plenty of correlation between physical activity and longer lifespan in humans, but of course there's many variables involved. I'm just not seeing the evidence that sensible exercise and diet are actually harmful, in fact there's a fair amount of evidence showing otherwise.

Look at the Biggest Loser study I mentioned earlier. Human data across several thousand participants. ALL of them, every single one, regained their weight after losing most of it on a combination of exercise/fasting. A few of them ended up in the hospital with heart problems. A small percentage were newly diagnosed with diabetes after they competed in the contest. A few died, even though it is hard to say if it was the regimen that killed them or they had issues before that due to the excess weight and the stress simply was the trigger.

 

[ReSTART]

I don't understand the joy some people have for running.
Even with proper shoes and running technique, the amount of stress put on joints and cartilage seems to be immense.
Why bother running over more stimulating activites that are more varied such as sports or easier-on-the-body cardio such as swimming and bike riding?

 

[Tarmander]

Again, the message of this thread is NOT to never exercise, it is to not use exercise to lose weight unless it is exercise that builds muscle since only the latter raises RMR. So, in other words, you if you exercise you'd better be doing stuff that recompositions your body to have more muscle and less fat. Running often and/or fasting it one of the words ways to do that as when stopped it will lower RMR while resistance training will actually raise RMR by building muscle.
And the reason a lot of these poor souls you mention get into this predicament is that they are being told by everybody to exercise in order to stay healthy, while the message should be "raise RMR to stay healthy". Instead, they do the commonly recommended (even by their doctor) approaches to stay healthy, which includes fasting and running/cycling and that really destroys their metabolism and fat-free muscle mass through hypercortisolemia.

#gethealthy

 

[Hans]

The first time I did IF and fasted training with success, I was 20. The second time I did it to some degree of success although I needed to fast longer to the same results, I was 23. I haven't tried it again and sure never will. There sure are much saver and better/healthier ways to achieve a lean bulk/health/weight loss without IF and fasted training.

 

[paymanz]

Low testosterone, stress hormones and inflammation, I suppose. There was a suggestion to get libido and vitality back up before working out again.

I mentioned all that because most of you talked about gaining weight when started Peating your diet.

eating more protein it's usually tied to more fat (only way I see to avoid this is skimmed milk or casein and I'm far from able to digest milk properly). Is that ok or there's limit on fat other than PUFA intake per day?

Too much fat is not good anyway...

 

[chispas]

May I ask how old are you? There is a long running argument here about whether fasting will work for everybody or just the younger/healthier folks.

Personally, as someone who is heavily involved in strength training, I think most of the gym culture /bodybuilding/ weightlifting/ powerlifting methodology is broken, built on bad foundations. I don't actually train like anyone else I know, I've actually engineered my own equipment. I can lift 100kg overhead with relative ease, yet I don't have huge arms at all. I'm just a normal person that wants to feel strong, not a competitive lifter (currently).

I've said this before on this forum, and been crucified. Not to be a conspirationalist, but I really don't think the government wants it's populace strong enough to throw a police officer through the air. Or any authority figure. The state likes it's populace weak and dependent.

Body building is just nice looking muscles, no strength. Powerlifting puts huge CNS stress on the body, and so does "strongman training", but it causes terrible inflammation. None of these methods are really very good for their intended goal. Even weightlifting training is ridiculous, they've never heard of physics, don't even understand high school text book.

I look at the popular guy doing the 16/9 training, um Kino Boy or whatever. The guy has no strength, you could push him over with your thumb. He does very high reps and then eats nothing until 5pm or whatever. This is one of the many poor pictures of strength and fitness training that gets advocated in the visually obsessed culture we are all living in now.

I think the human body has great capacity for strength, but I really don't think any of the popular methods really lead to it in a very direct way. Hence I made my own system, seems to be working, and it doesn't wear me down.

 

[Terma]

And before everybody starts jumping on the mifepristone (RU486) bandwagon. The study claims that the benefits were due to RU486 inhibiting 11b-HSD1. However, the effects were mixed - in some tissues RU486 actually increased 11b-HSD1, which is highly undesirable. I think a much safer approach would be a combination of progesterone + DHEA, as both have direct anti-cortisol effects systemically (vs. the selective modulation done by RU486). That, and of course supporting thyroid function.

I work on that exact assumption, that mifepristone has specificity for the feedback receptors in the hypothalamus/hippocampus/etc. and that's precisely the reason it works so well for weird conditions. It may increase systemic cortisol levels and temporarily worsen glucocorticoid effects elsewhere while the brain receptors reregulate, until drug is stopped. This is what seems to happens in the PTSD studies. (But this also means I doubt if a progesterone/combo can replace it)

-------------------

The cortisol/11b is a real pickle.

But I've been led to think that the insulin resistance part might be aggravated by the high protein diets from paleo, weight loss and ray peat diets:

High-Protein Diets Promote Weight Loss but Impair Insulin Sensitivity
A low-protein diet improves insulin sensitivity of endogenous glucose production in predialytic uremic patients. - PubMed - NCBI

The best idea for the molecular mechanism I saw was:
mTORC1 activates SREBP-1c and uncouples lipogenesis from gluconeogenesis

By this mechanism insulin sensitivity could not only worsen from aminos, but in some disease states protein itself might be too lipogenic and contribute to obesity. Support for this idea is limited but I experienced it personally and I think Barnes wrote high protein caused issues with "thyroid". Also some other ketogenic diets that somewhat worked for health conditions actually restricted protein (contrary to popular belief).

So that's a little off-topic, but all to say in other words I'd think to restore insulin sensitivity after wrecking yourself through exercise or horrible diet you could just try to go on a low protein fruitarian or starch diet for a couple months or something and then readd protein. Not far from what I read suggested here but not so much in those terms iirc.

 

[Hans]

Many people want to lift weights for a better physique, or do powerlifting to compete. I agree the bodybuilding/weightlifting culture is broken as most people do it due to bad self image.
But I wouldn't say that bodybuilders are not strong. There are countless examples of very strong men with great physiques, both natural and on steroids. There are also very well designed programs that do not wear you out as well, both for strength and building muscle.
Why would you want to throw someone through the air? It will just get you into trouble. Fighting is a bad way to try and solve a problem, because it doesn't solve anything.
Great trainers understand physics and how the body works, else they would not have produced such great physiques, such as Mohamed Makkawy or Arnold for example.
But my apologies for derailing the thread a bit, I just find some of chispas' statements to be untrue.

 

[vulture]

Personally, as someone who is heavily involved in strength training, I think most of the gym culture /bodybuilding/ weightlifting/ powerlifting methodology is broken, built on bad foundations. I don't actually train like anyone else I know, I've actually engineered my own equipment. I can lift 100kg overhead with relative ease, yet I don't have huge arms at all. I'm just a normal person that wants to feel strong, not a competitive lifter (currently).

I've said this before on this forum, and been crucified. Not to be a conspirationalist, but I really don't think the government wants it's populace strong enough to throw a police officer through the air. Or any authority figure. The state likes it's populace weak and dependent.

Body building is just nice looking muscles, no strength. Powerlifting puts huge CNS stress on the body, and so does "strongman training", but it causes terrible inflammation. None of these methods are really very good for their intended goal. Even weightlifting training is ridiculous, they've never heard of physics, don't even understand high school text book.

I look at the popular guy doing the 16/9 training, um Kino Boy or whatever. The guy has no strength, you could push him over with your thumb. He does very high reps and then eats nothing until 5pm or whatever. This is one of the many poor pictures of strength and fitness training that gets advocated in the visually obsessed culture we are all living in now.

I think the human body has great capacity for strength, but I really don't think any of the popular methods really lead to it in a very direct way. Hence I made my own system, seems to be working, and it doesn't wear me down.

Anyone who can overhead press more than 100 kg "with ease" will have strong arms and they will look strong. You can't be strong and look like Shaggie from Scoobie Doo. And I seriously doubt that guys that their entire lives and their coaches and coaches of their coaches revolve around being the strongest among thousands have no idea how to do it...if you have a more effective method to build your way to clean and jerk more than 150 kg or squatting 200 kg than the US or Russian or Chinese Olympic teams coaches, I'd like to see it and even try it.

 

[cyclops]

Body building is just nice looking muscles, no strength.

This is not true. Plenty of very strong natural bodybuilders.

 

[Thoushant]

@Peater Piper Agree. 7 years ago I was externally motivated to lose weight, and did it too harshly. I gained a lot of muscle during that period, I regained some fat on rp diet, but I'm still leaner than my 20 year old.

Yes, better parameters while exercising/fasting. Not after they stopped. Also, look at the other studies they cited which found the same effects. Those other studies did not fast the animals. The point of the thread is that it is probably not a good approach to keep yourself thin with running/fasting. If there is a weight problem then there is probably an endocrine/endotoxin/inflammation issue and forcing your weight down through stress is not the solution even if you keep at it until you crash.

I see your point, I agree to a certain extent. If you want to lose weight you shouldn't go desperately about it, it's a lifestyle.
What other studies? Current study measured alot of factors, but With the CR, they mention the control group, but don't compare weight to them. So did the CR group end up with higher weight than the control group(Not the sed group!)?
I still don't think this particullar study is very illuminating, it would be waay more intersting if they let the rats eat ad libitium for a longer period of time than one week.

I am trying to find a study, with no luck. Human tril 5 days "fast" 400 kcal of whey(or was it casein?) and they exercised like 8 hours of walking. They lost body fat, no Lean mass loss, and they didn't regain for 1 year followup.

 

[AretnaP]

We need to study fasting more intensely on this forum. I'm against it but I would still like to know all the details of the damage it does.

 

[Thoushant]

Sustained rise in triacylglycerol synthesis and increased epididymal fat mass when rats cease voluntary wheel running. - PubMed - NCBI

ofcourse the body is supporting their movement. And to do that, there is an increase of fatty acid production, for the mitochondria in the muscles.

They blow the ratio of increased fat mass out of propotion (times 1000, what happend to good old 100?? were talking relative adipose increase of 0.1% total body weight.. of rats... and the SED group had a higher even!). If they move more, they need more fuel so the body is accomodated to move the fuel. then you suddenly stop, it will take time before you reach an equilibium, where gene expression favours new lifestyle.

Exercise group ate more and had more muscle

All tests after animals were dead showed that yes, We have a very active body here.
What would happen if the rats are pulled in sedentary position, and offered same amount of food as initial sedentary group, and then allowed time to accomodate?

EDIT: Not to mention, referenceing "the biggest loser" particpents. How is it dignified to be identified "the biggest loser"? Is that indicative of a healthy mind to enroll in the program? The whole point of the show is to bring the most dramatic obese "I've tried everything buuuhuu" and give them the biggest external motivation for weight loss and making it a contest.

 

[Jarman]

I think this thread will ring true for all people who at some in their lives exercised in order to lose weight. Just like fasting, it works great in younger age (<30) but it really masks a bigger metabolic problem and of course badly backfired in the long run. Exercise is a forced/stressed attempt to increase the "calories out" part of the weight maintenance equation. The equivalent, and possibly just as bad, approach is fasting in an attempt to decrease the "calories in" part of the equation. Both are stressful and it has been shown that only people with high RMR are healthy. Neither the artificially raises MR by exercise (adrenaline/cortisol) nor the chronic fasters have been shown to endure lasting health benefits as both of these lower RMR.
As the study below shows, fasting or exercising and then stopping (in the face of unchanged caloric intake), leads to rapid regaining of weight, insulin resistance and obesity. The effects are due to cortisol, which stays elevated after stopping the fasting/exercise due to elevation in 11b-HSD1 expression. I think this is what quite a few people experienced on Peat's diet. Due to their lowered metabolic rate and reliance on cortisol and adrenaline from diets like Paleo and/or chronic exhaustive exercise, these people rapidly regain weight initially post exercise/fasting and struggle with losing it unless they lower their stress hormones and support thyroid. Unless thyroid is addressed and/or excessive cortisol signalling opposed the fasting/exercise needs to be done indefinitely in order to keep the weight off. This would explain why some people here need to endure period long fasts to feel good - once you are in the vicious circle of IR and obesity you either have to keep feeding that cycle or block/lower cortisol to exit it. I think all of these are basic facts that pretty much all of us have experienced personally. I had the same issue back in 2011-2012 and until I reigned cortisol in my weight did not drop. Hey @Jsaute21, @Drareg, @AretnaP, @Dhair, @DuggaDugga and others - I think you will really appreciate this. In light of this I don't know how anybody can view chronic elevation of cortisol (aka stress) as good. Yes, cortisol needs to be reigned in if you want the stress response to stop.

A side note: As pointed out by one reader this study was on effects of exercise + fasting. However, the study cites other experiments where only exercise was used and the results were pretty similar. See below.
Exercise + Fasting Is Stress, Causes Obesity And IR, And Requires Cortisol Blockade To Reverse

Glucocorticoid antagonism limits adiposity rebound and glucose intolerance in young male rats following the cessation of daily exercise and caloric... - PubMed - NCBI

"...Severe caloric restriction (CR), in a setting of regular physical exercise, may be a stress that sets the stage for adiposity rebound and insulin resistance when the food restriction and exercise stop. In this study, we examined the effect of mifepristone, a glucocorticoid (GC) receptor antagonist, on limiting adipose tissue mass gain and preserving whole body insulin sensitivity following the cessation of daily running and CR. We calorically restricted male Sprague-Dawley rats and provided access to voluntary running wheels for 3 wk followed by locking of the wheels and reintroduction to ad libitum feeding with or without mifepristone (80 mg·kg−1·day−1) for 1 wk. Cessation of daily running and CR increased HOMA-IR and visceral adipose mass as well as glucose and insulin area under the curve during an oral glucose tolerance test vs. pre-wheel lock exercised rats and sedentary rats (all P < 0.05). Insulin sensitivity and glucose tolerance were preserved and adipose tissue mass gain was attenuated by daily mifepristone treatment during the post-wheel lock period. These findings suggest that following regular exercise and CR there are GC-induced mechanisms that promote adipose tissue mass gain and impaired metabolic control in healthy organisms and that this phenomenon can be inhibited by the GC receptor antagonist mifepristone."


"...Three weeks of daily running increased 11β-HSD1 protein content 5-fold in epididymal fat and 2.5-fold in subcutaneous (inguinal) fat (Run CR vs. Sed CR, P < 0.05; Fig. 3, A and G). 11β-HSD1 remained elevated 1 wk following the cessation of daily running and CR in the placebo post-WL group vs. the Sed CR group in the epididymal depot (P < 0.05; Fig. 3A). Mifepristone treatment significantly reduced 11β-HSD1 content in epididymal fat during the post-WL period vs. the Run CR and placebo post-WL (P < 0.05; Fig. 3A)."

"...One week of sedentary behavior and ad libitum food intake following 3 wk of daily wheel running and CR impaired glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity markedly (Fig. 5, A and B). The glucose area under the curve (AUC) increased significantly in the placebo post-WL group (238.3 ± 16.3) vs. the Run CR group (133.1 ± 25.8) (P < 0.05), and this was prevented with mifepristone treatment (139.2 ± 11.2, P < 0.05; Fig. 5A′). The placebo post-WL group had a significantly greater insulin AUC (193.2 ± 33.8) vs. the Run CR group (23.4 ± 6.4), and this elevated response, suggesting severe insulin resistance, was attenuated with mifepristone treatment (72.1 ± 9.2) (P < 0.05 vs. the placebo post-WL group; Fig. 5B′)."

"...There was a significant increase in the placebo post-WL group for fasting glucose (6.12 ± 0.29 mM) and insulin (1.89 ± 0.28 ng/ml) concentrations vs. the Run CR group (4.4 ± 0.22 mM glucose, 0.25 ± 0.05 ng/ml insulin) (P < 0.05, Fig. 5A′′; P < 0.01, Fig. 5B′′)."

"...Previous studies by Booth and colleagues have demonstrated that insulin resistance rapidly develops (within days) in skeletal muscle (32), but not adipose tissue (33), in their rodent wheel lock model. In this study, cessation of daily running and CR resulted in a two- and eightfold increase in glucose AUC and insulin AUC, respectively, in the placebo post-WL group vs. the Run CR group. Remarkably, fasting insulin and HOMA-IR were seven- and tenfold higher in the placebo post-WL vs. the Run CR group. Mifepristone treatment prevented both hyperglycemia and hyperinsulinemia during the OGTT, reduced fasting blood glucose and insulin levels, and prevented the increase in HOMA-IR vs. the placebo post-WL group...Importantly, this hyperinsulinemia induced by the cessation of CR and exercise, paired with maintained adipose tissue insulin sensitivity, may promote rapid adipose tissue regrowth (see below)."

"...We observed a threefold increase in circulating corticosterone levels during the pre-WL period in all of the CR rats. Thus, prior to the wheel lock period, there was systemic hypercorticosteronemia, which may have contributed to the deteriorated metabolic profile and rapid adipose tissue mass gain in the placebo rats once ad libitum feeding was resumed. It is important to note that, although the physically active rats had hypercorticosteronemia and elevated inguinal 11β-HSD1 expression relative to the placebo post-WL group, they had substantially better glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity and less body fat. Previous studies have suggested that highly trained humans can exhibit basal hypercorticosteronemia (40, 77) as well as systemically elevated 11β-HSD1 activity several days after a single bout of endurance exercise (6). The function of the observed elevations in GC exposure within adipose tissue following exercise is unclear. We speculate that it may be one of the mechanisms underlying the body's physiological drive for fat regain after initial fat mass loss. Collectively, the loss of fat mass and improved metabolic efficiency of peripheral tissues induced by CR and daily exercise, mixed with elevated GC exposure within adipose tissue, may become detrimental only once paired with excessive caloric intake and physical inactivity."

"...We observed a four- to tenfold increase in relative adipose tissue mass in perirenal, epididymal, and inguinal fat 1 wk following cessation of CR and daily running. Daily mifepristone treatment in the post-WL period attenuated body mass gain and relative adipose mass in perirenal and inguinal depots and partially attenuated epididymal fat rebound. In fact, the absolute masses of all three fat depots were significantly reduced in the mifepristone post-WL group vs. the placebo-treated animals. Previously, it had been shown that mifepristone treatment reduced adipose tissue mass gain and body weight gain in rodent models of diet-induced obesity (3, 28, 56). In addition, 2–4 wk of mifepristone treatment reduced risperidone- and olanzapine-induced weight gain in healthy men (23, 24). This suggests that GCs play a significant role in contributing to fat deposition and weight gain in these studies."

And before everybody starts jumping on the mifepristone (RU486) bandwagon. The study claims that the benefits were due to RU486 inhibiting 11b-HSD1. However, the effects were mixed - in some tissues RU486 actually increased 11b-HSD1, which is highly undesirable. I think a much safer approach would be a combination of progesterone + DHEA, as both have direct anti-cortisol effects systemically (vs. the selective modulation done by RU486). That, and of course supporting thyroid function.
DHEA, In Low Doses, Directly Inhibits Cortisol Synthesis
DHEA Enhances Cortisol Degradation
The Anti-cortisol Mechanism Of Progesterone

The Great tyw favors intermittent fasting. This not in the context of 40 days fasting + exercise:

I'm Losing A Lot Of Weight On Intermittent Fasting

Me likes Intermittent Fasting . Been doing it for around 8 years now, typically with a 6-8hr feeding window. Very easy to maintain pretty lean physique without problems, while maintaining high-normal caloric intake (approx 16x bodyweight_LBS multiplier, which is around 2500kcal for me).

While most protocols call for an afternoon to night eating pattern, I quickly discovered a few years ago that morning to afternoon worked much better. Newer studies seem to support this -- Intermittent Fasting Increases 24h Energy Expenditure, But Skipping Breakfast Linked to Reduced Metabolic Flexibility - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone

NOTE: the increased caloric expenditure from that last linked article is barely noticeable. Like 50kcal a day at best. The main benefits to the day-time-only eating plan are circadian yoking and metabolic flexibility.​

Detrimental effects of calorie-sufficient intermittent fasting on cortisol are non-existent. If there is any defect in cortisol it is due to some other stressor, or simply too little food.

Also, cortisol is never the be-all-end-all of skeletal muscle retention nor body composition -- BioSignature review: Are hormones the key to weight loss?

NOTE: I agree with the statement from the article, "Fat is the cause, not the result". Menno (the author) is right that fat regulates the hormones, and not the other way around. Losing excess fat is almost always the solution to those with hormonal problems (unless one is willing to use exogenous hormones).

The exceptions are those with true hormonal regulatory disorders, to which specific and effective treatment needs to be made.​

Another one from The Great tyw: I'm Losing A Lot Of Weight On Intermittent Fasting

First, fasting does not necessarily lead to cortisol release. In the context of calorie-sufficient intermittent fasting, there is no effect just from fasting alone, and the pro-IF crowd on the interwebs has already compiled all the evidence supporting this fact.

Next, the general mechanic for metabolic-driven cortisol release is that more energy is demanded for whatever reason, and that energy is beyond what "readily available stores" can provide. Exercise will create a transient spike in cortisol levels, and this spike is highest when exercise is done early in the morning -- Cortisol and Growth Hormone Responses to Exercise at Different Times of Day1 | The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism | Oxford Academic . In other words, we have "cumulative cortisol load".

The question of "is fasted cardio better for fat loss?" has been debated amongst the fitness community for awhile, and the answer is basically that in 99% of cases, the answer is that there is no difference in fat loss results between fasted and non-fasted cardio. The only 1% exceptions are those specific cases of stubborn body fat loss, which require certain conditions to specifically upregulate beta-adrenegenic receptors in this type of fat. If you are not a competition bodybuilder or otherwise really really lean athlete, you do not fall into this category.

Extending that to activity during a fasted state in IF, it really doesn't make a difference ...... as is evidenced by the literally thousands of fitness-oriented people by now who have tried IF, obsessively modulated activity levels trying to get a new hack for fat loss, and found that at the end of the day, net caloric intake was what determined their total fat loss, and the eating pattern that best supported calorie control worked the best.

In that spirit, I do not advocate specifically for morning-only eating. I state what I do, but I'm a freak to begin with, and try to optimise what I can. To answer m_arch's question about skipping dinner -- I just never had a problem not eating at night. I'd know how much I need, eat my fill during the day, and still be feeling satisfied at night. I doubt there would be any sort of problems with cortisol rhythm in this case (unless I started suddenly exercising like crazy at night, which I don't).

In generic terms, there is clear evidence showing that all humans process food better during daylight hours. Better glucose tolerance, better fatty acid oxidation, less adipose tissue insulin sensitivity, more accurate liver clock timing (liver is meant to swell up during day with nutrients, not so much during night), etc ..... Again, I will direct people to read Bill Lagakos' blog The poor, misunderstood calorie

"Better food tolerance" doesn't mean "don't eat anything at night". It just means "try not to eat too much / majority of food intake at night", and be more wary of caloric overload during this time.

That is because from a circadian mismatch perspective, it is clear that light is the primary entrainer, and food can skew peripheral clocks if not matched to metabolic capacity. "Overeating at night" is a variable threshold, which could be 0kcal if you were sedentary all day while stuffing your face (food already present, more food is just night-time overload), or could be 1,000kcal at 9pm after a very physical active day with relatively little food.

Lagakos himself is skeptical of the extremes of 1 meal a day, and will say that the Breakfast-Lunch-Dinner setup is probably ideal, despite the fact that he would rather see a BREAKFAST-LUNch-dinner pattern, and exercise timed more during the daylight hours.

And of course, there are clear studies showing that a protein bolus at around sunset or even later elevates muscle protein synthesis much greater than a similar bolus earlier in the daytime, which does suggest benefits to a controlled night-time meal -- Nutrient Timing Endures: Circadian Rhythm Protein Timing | humanengine

 

[haidut]

The Great tyw favors intermittent fasting. This not in the context of 40 days fasting + exercise:

I'm Losing A Lot Of Weight On Intermittent Fasting

Me likes Intermittent Fasting . Been doing it for around 8 years now, typically with a 6-8hr feeding window. Very easy to maintain pretty lean physique without problems, while maintaining high-normal caloric intake (approx 16x bodyweight_LBS multiplier, which is around 2500kcal for me).

While most protocols call for an afternoon to night eating pattern, I quickly discovered a few years ago that morning to afternoon worked much better. Newer studies seem to support this -- Intermittent Fasting Increases 24h Energy Expenditure, But Skipping Breakfast Linked to Reduced Metabolic Flexibility - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone

NOTE: the increased caloric expenditure from that last linked article is barely noticeable. Like 50kcal a day at best. The main benefits to the day-time-only eating plan are circadian yoking and metabolic flexibility.​

Detrimental effects of calorie-sufficient intermittent fasting on cortisol are non-existent. If there is any defect in cortisol it is due to some other stressor, or simply too little food.

Also, cortisol is never the be-all-end-all of skeletal muscle retention nor body composition -- BioSignature review: Are hormones the key to weight loss?

NOTE: I agree with the statement from the article, "Fat is the cause, not the result". Menno (the author) is right that fat regulates the hormones, and not the other way around. Losing excess fat is almost always the solution to those with hormonal problems (unless one is willing to use exogenous hormones).

The exceptions are those with true hormonal regulatory disorders, to which specific and effective treatment needs to be made.​

Another one from The Great tyw: I'm Losing A Lot Of Weight On Intermittent Fasting

First, fasting does not necessarily lead to cortisol release. In the context of calorie-sufficient intermittent fasting, there is no effect just from fasting alone, and the pro-IF crowd on the interwebs has already compiled all the evidence supporting this fact.

Next, the general mechanic for metabolic-driven cortisol release is that more energy is demanded for whatever reason, and that energy is beyond what "readily available stores" can provide. Exercise will create a transient spike in cortisol levels, and this spike is highest when exercise is done early in the morning -- Cortisol and Growth Hormone Responses to Exercise at Different Times of Day1 | The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism | Oxford Academic . In other words, we have "cumulative cortisol load".

The question of "is fasted cardio better for fat loss?" has been debated amongst the fitness community for awhile, and the answer is basically that in 99% of cases, the answer is that there is no difference in fat loss results between fasted and non-fasted cardio. The only 1% exceptions are those specific cases of stubborn body fat loss, which require certain conditions to specifically upregulate beta-adrenegenic receptors in this type of fat. If you are not a competition bodybuilder or otherwise really really lean athlete, you do not fall into this category.

Extending that to activity during a fasted state in IF, it really doesn't make a difference ...... as is evidenced by the literally thousands of fitness-oriented people by now who have tried IF, obsessively modulated activity levels trying to get a new hack for fat loss, and found that at the end of the day, net caloric intake was what determined their total fat loss, and the eating pattern that best supported calorie control worked the best.

In that spirit, I do not advocate specifically for morning-only eating. I state what I do, but I'm a freak to begin with, and try to optimise what I can. To answer m_arch's question about skipping dinner -- I just never had a problem not eating at night. I'd know how much I need, eat my fill during the day, and still be feeling satisfied at night. I doubt there would be any sort of problems with cortisol rhythm in this case (unless I started suddenly exercising like crazy at night, which I don't).

In generic terms, there is clear evidence showing that all humans process food better during daylight hours. Better glucose tolerance, better fatty acid oxidation, less adipose tissue insulin sensitivity, more accurate liver clock timing (liver is meant to swell up during day with nutrients, not so much during night), etc ..... Again, I will direct people to read Bill Lagakos' blog The poor, misunderstood calorie

"Better food tolerance" doesn't mean "don't eat anything at night". It just means "try not to eat too much / majority of food intake at night", and be more wary of caloric overload during this time.

That is because from a circadian mismatch perspective, it is clear that light is the primary entrainer, and food can skew peripheral clocks if not matched to metabolic capacity. "Overeating at night" is a variable threshold, which could be 0kcal if you were sedentary all day while stuffing your face (food already present, more food is just night-time overload), or could be 1,000kcal at 9pm after a very physical active day with relatively little food.

Lagakos himself is skeptical of the extremes of 1 meal a day, and will say that the Breakfast-Lunch-Dinner setup is probably ideal, despite the fact that he would rather see a BREAKFAST-LUNch-dinner pattern, and exercise timed more during the daylight hours.

And of course, there are clear studies showing that a protein bolus at around sunset or even later elevates muscle protein synthesis much greater than a similar bolus earlier in the daytime, which does suggest benefits to a controlled night-time meal -- Nutrient Timing Endures: Circadian Rhythm Protein Timing | humanengine

I got nothing against intermittent fasting, it can certainly help especially in cases where gut is irritated and needs a break. But the point of this study and the one it cites is that chronic "endurance" exercise upregulates cortisol production, which stays elevated upon discontinuation of exercise and causes insulin resistance. The increase in production is apparently due to higher expression of 11b-HSD1 in exercised people and the change is adaptive - i.e. it will stay that way until something is done to reverse it. Combining regular "endurance" exercise with chronic CR makes the situation worse.