Estrogen In Milk

[Travis]

Elimination of estrogen by the bilary route is also given in this study [fig 1] and corresponds to about 55 pg/mg(protein(f)) for men. The units they use are ridiculous, and there is considerable ambiguity involved. I am using the information here to convert to a more reasonable number.

The average nitrogen elimination in this study was 31.5 to 26.3 mg(N)/(kg)(body weight)day on an average protein diet: And the obligatory(f) nitrogen loss was 9mg(N)/kg(body weight)day in this study. I think 30mg(N(f))/(kg)(body weight)day is a good average number. To convert total Nitrogen to protein, the Jones Factor is usually conjured-up. The number 6.25 is generally used, but the article Converting nitrogen into protein--beyond 6.25 and Jones' factors, the authors think 5.6 is a more accurate number. I'll use the updated number to convert Nitrogen into protein:

30mg(N(f))/(kg)(body weight)day
Jones factor: 5.6 protein/N
168mg(protein(f))/(kg)(body weight)day

And now we have the right units to multiply with the estrogen concentration of 55 pg/mg(protein(f)):

55 pg/mg(protein(f)) x 168mg(protein(f))/(kg)(body weight)day
55 pg x 168/(kg)(body weight)day [units cancel]
9240pg/(kg body weight)day
9.24ng/(kg body weight)day [I weigh 70 kilos]
647ng/day

Which is on the order of nanograms. I should check other studies to see if this makes sense. There was a really good study done on wild baboons here. They measured an Estrone + Estradiol concentration of ~ 70ng/g(f) [Table 1]. This is expressed as dry matter, so we have to consult this article again [Table 3]. The mean value between the two human groups is 33g(f)/day, but Papio cynocephalus only weighs about one-third of a human, so we can divide by 3 to get 11g(f)/day. This would put the baboon excretion per day at 700ng/day. This is in close agreement to the 647ng/day calculated above.

So, unless I made some terrible math blunder, it looks like the total estrogen excretion per day by the bilary route is only in the nanogram range. This is negligible compared to urinary excretion, which is on the order of micrograms.

The daily production rate of estrogen should match the daily exretion rate: between ~16.8μg/day and ~36μg/day for males. Females can be much higher.

 

[Travis]

The best data comes from the article Estrogen Metabolism and Excretion in Oriental and Caucasian Women. In this study, they measure the total excretion of estrogen. They seem to agree with me that production rate is essentially equal to elimination rate:

Our results [elimination] clearly demonstrate that total estrogen production is more related to height (and weight) than to BMI.

In this study, they measured the total estrogen elimination using the usual techniques:

The urinary estrogen profile was measured by gas chromatography-mass spectrometry and plasma and fecal estrogens were assayed by chromatographic radioimmunoassays...

The data in this study is much easier to work with. The Oriental Group [Table 2] had a mean urinary estrogen elimination rate (adjusted for height and BMI) of 76.91 nmol/24h. Estrone has a molar mass of 270.366 g/mol.

76.91 nmol/24h
76.91 n(270.366g)/24h
20794ng/24h
20.794μg/24h
20.794 μg/day

This seems reasonable and in agreement with the male's urinary excretion rate. The excretion rate for the Finnish group would be higher. And now for the BMI-adjusted bilary excretion rate [Table 3; Oriental Group; 9.32 ± 1.46 nmol/24 h].

9.32nmol/24 h
9.32n(270.366g)/24 h
9.32n(270.366g)/24 h
2519ng/24h
2.52 μg/day

Which is higher than the men's estimations, but also higher than Finnish women. In their words:

The Oriental women had two to three times higher fecal excretion of estrogens than the Finnish women (P<.0l).

Finnish women would be in rough agreement to my earlier values for men: (1/3)2.52 μg/day = .84 μg/day

So the total amount of estrogen excreted per 24 hours by the Oriental Group is 20.794 μg/day + 2.52 μg/day = 23.3 μg/day

And since excretion equals production, this is also the production rate.

On the previous page, Shultz said:

The average woman produces 630 micro grams per day.

...a number that probably exists in the literature based on metabolic clearance rates estimates. From the article Exposure to exogenous estrogens in food:

Daily production rates (PR) of hormones are calculated from estimates of the metabolic clearance rate (MCR, the volume of serum that can be cleared of a given hormone during 24 h) and of the plasma concentrations of the given hormone by the following equation: PR (mg/day) = plasma concentration (mg/ml) × MCR (ml/day)

This method can be criticized heavily on theoretically grounds; a bolus loading-dose of estrogen is bound to increase the clearance rate over normal values. We have proof now that non-pregnant Oriental women produce estrogen in much smaller amounts than those estimated by MCR tests.

 

[Travis]

Shultz said the average production rate was 140 μg/day. This is correct by using this equation. Here is what I got.

PR = plasma concentration × MCR

Plasma concentration = 54ng/L [Liquid Chromatography–Tandem Mass Spectrometry Assay for Simultaneous Measurement of Estradiol and Estrone in Human Plasma]

MCR = 1170L/day(m²) [A study of estrogen metabolic clearance rates and transfer factors]

BSA = 1.91 m² [Wikipedia]

PR = 54ng/L × 1170L/day(m²) × 1.91 m² [Have to multiply by the BSA. The clearance rate was given in units per body surface area]

PR = 54ng/L × 1170L/day(m²) × 1.91 m² [Almost all units cancel]

PR = 120673 ng/day

PR = 120.673 μg/day

Which is very close to what Schultz said. I do think, however, that this method overestimates the production rate and the true figure is around one-fourth this amount.

 

[Mittir]

Elimination of estrogen by the bilary route is also given in this study [fig 1] and corresponds to about 55 pg/mg(protein(f)) for men

There is no link to that study

And since excretion equals production, this is also the production rate.

I do not know if you are calculating fecal excretion or biliary excretion.
A large part of biliary excretion of estrogen is reabsorbed. That is why
raw carrot and other fiber lowers estroegn in blood by removing extra
estrogen in feces. Is estrogen level in tissues relevant here?

 

[Travis]

The link is right here: Fecal microbial determinants of fecal and systemic estrogens and estrogen metabolites: a cross-sectional study

All the measurements are in fecal concentration, I just don't like using that word. I used bilary as a euphemism.

That is why raw carrot and other fiber lowers estroegn in blood by removing extra
estrogen in feces

No doubt. Check out the study on the Oriental vs Finnish levels!

 

[Travis]

I just found and interisting quote in Metabolic Clearance Rates and Interconversions of Estrone and 17fl-Estradiol in Normal Males and Females [page 100]:

The [P]bb¹² value for the conversion of estrone to estradiol in blood is calculated from the rate of infusion of estrone [Rx¹l = plasma radioactive concentration of estrone (x¹) multiplied by the MCR of estrone (MCR') ] and the...

The part that caught my eye was the part where they said the infusion rate [Rx¹l of estrone equals the plasma concentration (x¹) of estrone times the MCR of estrone. This makes perfect sense to me, but this is the exact same formula as the "Production rate". To quote another article:

Daily production rates of hormones are calculated from the estimates of the metabolic clearance rate (MCR, the volume of serum that can be cleared of a given hormone during 24 h) and of the plasma concentrations of the given hormone according to the following equation:

Daily production rate (µg/day) = plasma concentration (µg/ml) × MCR (ml/day).

Ponder that.

She goes on to say:

Because the concentrations of plasma estradiol in prepubertal children were highly overestimated in the measurements using early radioimmunoassays and because the MCR most probably was based on values obtained from adults, it has been suggested that the production rate of estradiol in prepubertal boys used by JECFA and FDA to determine the ADI might be 100–200 times higher than the actual production rate (Andersson and Skakkebaek, 1999). According to a revised calculation of the original production rate calculated by JECFA and FDA based on the estradiol measurements of Klein et al., the production rate of estradiol in prepubertal boys was reduced to a level between 0.04 and 0.1 µg/day (Andersson and Skakkebaek, 1999). The production rate of 0.04 µg/day correlates to an ADI of 400 pg/day (1% of 0.04 µg).

The sensitivity of the child to sex steroids: possible impact of exogenous estrogens

Well, at least I'm not the only who came to that conclusion. My estimation:

production rate = elimination rate

elimination rate ≈ 25 μg/day

[155 pound male; non-pregnant]

 

[X3CyO]

Ok.. So estrogen in milk. What's your solution?

Everything seems to keep leading to some kind of restrictive fruitarian diet.

Also. I've heard that cows can't be pregnant if their progesterone is lower than estrogen or something along those lines and that they are fed considerably well versus cows grown specifically for slaughter with soy and such, but I could be wrong.

 

[Travis]

What's your solution?

The data speaks for itself; formulate your own solution.

I couldn't believe that males actually produced 140mg estrogen per day based on nanogram serum levels. Every study I read strengthened my conviction, so I made a case against it.

Maybe you can look into it more deeply and share your findings.

 

[Travis]

I found some more data:

The concentrations change during pregnancy, and the mean for the three trimesters is 762ng/L.

 

[X3CyO]

Interesting.

My vegan option is pea protein that's dried out (gets rid of most of the disgusting taste), diluted in sugar water.

I tried tons of different vegan milks, but they just led to making the taste that much more prominent.

In this form it has a light consistency and is easy to pound down.

 

[What-a-Riot]

theres no such thing as animal derived vegan milk @Travis but anything can get called milk. whatabout soymilk almond milk coconut milk? id say about half of all things called milk are vegan

 

[X3CyO]

When I lived a vegan lifestyle that's what I ate to follow peats guidelines and get the recommended amount of protein. Thus vegans milk.. Although most of my diet was fruit.

I prefer the fruitarian title.

 

[What-a-Riot]

Btw Travis I didn't mean to be coming at you, and I really oughtta express my appreciation for the work you're putting into this thread

 

[Travis]

[edit]

 

[Makrosky]

@Travis

Sorry, I don't get it. What do you mean by production rate of estrogen?

If you drink a liter of milk per day and it has a very small ammount of estrogen, how can that have hormonal effects? You say you can excrete up to 25u/day.

I don't get the point of your last post. Could you please clarify?

 

[Travis]

@Makrosky

If we assume that the daily production rate equals the daily elimination rate, then the daily production rate is ~25μ/day. Just looking at these numbers, you wouldn't think that milk would affect you. There are studies however that show that plasma levels do increase after milk consumption.

Let's look at another set of numbers; this time in nanograms. The average male plasma concentration is ~30ng/L. This is tiny. The concentration in milk is about 500ng/L. The estrogen concentration in milk is over ten times that of human plasma.

Looking at it this way makes it seem more plausible, yes?

Once you accept that it is biologically plausible, then you can start reading studies on this. I have read a few that indicated increased hormone levels upon dairy consumption. I am sure that there are many more studies out there too! There might even be studies that show no change at all.

 

[Makrosky]

@Makrosky

If we assume that the daily production rate equals the daily elimination rate, then the daily production rate is ~25μ/day. Just looking at these numbers, you wouldn't think that milk would affect you. There are studies however that show that plasma levels do increase after milk consumption.

Let's look at another set of numbers; this time in nanograms. The average male plasma concentration is ~30ng/L. This is tiny. The concentration in milk is about 500ng/L. The estrogen concentration in milk is over ten times that of human plasma.

Looking at it this way makes it seem more plausible, yes?

Once you accept that it is biologically plausible, then you can start reading studies on this. I have read a few that indicated increased hormone levels upon dairy consumption. I am sure that there are many more studies out there too! There might even be studies that show no change at all.

Why do you equal daily production with daily elimination rate? Is it just your hypothesis ? Or is it stablished in endocrine textbooks ?

Whaatt??? Why do you compare plasma levels with levels in milk ? It has no sense. It is not an IV injection man, it's drinking. If you eat two tablespoons of salt your plasma levels are not going to reflect that. Same with estrogen content.

Anyway.... this is all pure speculation. I would like you to post some of those studies showing milk consumption raises estrogen levels in humans, so we can check them or send them to Ray to hear what he has to say about them? I think that would be more useful.

Thanks!!!

 

[Travis]

I would like you to post some of those studies showing milk consumption raises estrogen levels in humans, so we can check them or send them to Ray to hear what he has to say about them? I think that would be more useful.

I already have Makrosky, on the previous page.
Exposure to exogenous estrogen through intake of commercial milk produced from pregnant cows
If you want to huge increases in plasma and urinary estrone and estradiol; look no further than Figure 1, Figure 3, and Figure 5.

Why do you equal daily production with daily elimination rate?

Because if you consume no estrogen at all, you should eliminate the same amount that you produce.

(production rate) + (elimination rate) = o

If this weren't the case, you would have a net gain or loss of estrogen; levels would progressively change throughout time. Since plasma levels are similar in 20 year old's and 60 year-olds, we should assume this is true. Are we clear?

If you eat two tablespoons of salt your plasma levels are not going to reflect that.

Two tablespoons NaCl is 35 grams. Your blood pressure would increase substantially as the salt attracts water from the cells. Don't be silly.
Effect of sodium intake on blood pressure, serum levels and renal excretion of sodium and potassium in normotensives with and without familial predisposition to hypertension.

...Same with estrogen content.

False! Do you have any idea how much estrogen that is? Each Premarin® tablet has only 625μg of estrone sulfate. One tablet has an effect. Two tablespoons of Premarin would be about:

x=(t/625μg)×(35g)
x=(t/625μg)×(35,000mg)
x=(t/625μg)×(35,000,000μg)
x=56,000t

Fifty-six thousand tablets of Premarin®. This would certainly have an effect.

Anyway.... this is all pure speculation.

No. Clinical studies have shown significant extrogen plasma increases, and epidemiological studies have shown higher prostate cancer rates. For a primer on how milk is correlated with testicular cancer, look no further:
Health Effects of Cow Milk
Ganmaa Davaasambuu, MD
Harvard School of Public Health

 

[biggirlkisss]

michelle from your doctor what were the tests called i want to get them from my doctor.

 

[Blossom]

michelle from your doctor what were the tests called i want to get them from my doctor.

Michelle was last seen on August 20, 2013 so I'm not sure if she will reply.