Estrogen In Milk

Discussion in 'Doubts About Milk' started by Michele M, Aug 18, 2013.

  1. Waynish

    Waynish Member

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    Yes, I think people are missing the full range of mechanisms for milk and its contents upon us. As Ray says, cows concentrate nutrients from grass into saturated fat & sugar - however, what else might they be concentrating from their environments? The immune properties make a lot of sense: cows would be preparing their young for defense against *their* environment! I'm quite annoyed at how daft all of the pro-milk people about this topic - and I'm pro-milk! Eating sick cows and drinking their milk - even when they're grass-fed - is very problematic. If you pick a piece of fruit off of the tree or ground - you make sure it is ripe, not rotting, and looks & smells nice. While people still sort of intuitively do this with fruits and vegetables to the best of their ability, basically no one is able to do it with animal products. If there were animals in the wild that smelled & looked like ***t from a distance, then you would never hunt & eat them... You'd find a deer, a goose, or something that seemed like prey - not a rotting cadaver! Or even any entity that's a professional lactater!
     
  2. Waynish

    Waynish Member

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    Best anaphylactic de-sensitization techniques you know? Maybe best to add to one of the 'reversing vaccine damage threads" - I'll follow you there ;)

    I'll lookup some Vinu Arumugham articles, but that link didn't work for me - perhaps I needed to be logged in.
     
  3. Travis

    Travis Member

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    Didn't exactly work for me either, but his name is spelled correctly. On his researchgate.com page, he has all of his articles listed. He seems very accurate and correct, and it had been his newer article that had alerted by to folate receptor autoantibodies. He does not speak of homogenization facilitating this, yet he is concerned—and rightly so—that the bovine folate receptor could be injected with the vaccine. [Growth media used to culture bacteria for antigens during vaccine production commonly uses 'casein,' yet this is actually an under-characterized assortment of many milk proteins.]

    The bovine folate receptor is the one and only link for the long established associations between autism, milk, and vaccines. This is biologically highly-plausible besides, and I'd even say it's now been proven.

    Below is one article, yet there are many more if you're interested:

     
  4. Kartoffel

    Kartoffel Member

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    The one and only paper that Travis costantly cites to prove the connection between milk, bovine folate receptors, and autism really only shows that drinking milk affects the number of blocked folate receptors in 24 people that were preselected, and already had cerebral folate deficiency and increased antibodies before the intervention. The crucial thing in cerebral folate deficiency is, well, the folate deficiency, and Ramaekers et al. somehow forgot to measure whether folate levels (N5 -methyltetrahydrofolate) differed after their milk intervention, allthough they measured the number of blocked folate receptors. You might argue that they simply forgot about looking into this important fact, or ran out of funding - or you might suspect that they did measure it and didn't really like the results.
    It should also at least be recognized that:

    "[...] the clinical evaluation and response to therapy was not blinded because these patients were on a long-term follow-up and were being treated with pharmacological doses of folinic acid" (Ramaekers et al. 2008: 347)

    So, before you run to your fridge now and throw away all your milk and cheese because you think "it's now been proven", carefully read the one study that this is based on, and decide whether this single piece of evidence constitutes a proof for Travis' claims. The study that Travis cited above (2007) actually doesn't have anything to do with milk, and doesn't include the words milk or bovine even once. The one study that he bases his whole milk-folate theory on is this one.

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1469-8749.2008.02053.x

    I really advise you to carefully read the full-text yourself, and as Danny Roddy likes to say: Do your own research and come to your own conclusions.
     
  5. Travis

    Travis Member

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    Hey Potato Guy, obnoxious troll, there are dozens and I have told you this many times. You are intentionally lying about this, just as you've lied about many other things in the past.

    Ramaekers, Vincent T. "A milk‐free diet downregulates folate receptor autoimmunity in cerebral folate deficiency syndrome." Developmental Medicine & Child Neurology (2008)

    Desai, A. "Prevention of behavioral deficits in rats exposed to folate receptor antibodies: implication in autism." Molecular psychiatry (2017)

    Rossignol, Daniel A. "Folate receptor alpha autoimmunity and cerebral folate deficiency in autism spectrum disorders." Journal of Pediatric Biochemistry (2012)


    Ramaekers, Vincent T. "Folate receptor autoimmunity and cerebral folate deficiency in low-functioning autism with neurological deficits." Neuropediatrics (2007)

    Frye, R. E. "Cerebral folate receptor autoantibodies in autism spectrum disorder." Molecular psychiatry (2013)

    Ramaekers, Vincent T. "Autoantibodies to folate receptors in the cerebral folate deficiency syndrome." New England Journal of Medicine (2005)

    Frye, Richard E. "Blocking and binding folate receptor alpha autoantibodies identify novel autism spectrum disorder subgroups." Frontiers in neuroscience (2016)

    Ramaekers, Vincent T. "Role of folate receptor autoantibodies in infantile autism." Molecular psychiatry (2013)


    Al-Baradie, Raidah S. "Diagnosis and management of cerebral folate deficiency: A form of folinic acid-responsive seizures." Neurosciences (2014)

    Frye, Richard E. "Folate receptor alpha autoantibodies modulate thyroid function in autism spectrum disorder." North American Journal of Medicine and Science (2014).

    Moretti, Paolo. "Brief report: autistic symptoms, developmental regression, mental retardation, epilepsy, and dyskinesias in CNS folate deficiency." Journal of autism and developmental disorders (2008)


    Frye, R. E. "Folinic acid improves verbal communication in children with autism and language impairment: a randomized double-blind placebo-controlled trial." Molecular psychiatry (2016).
    A similar amount of studies have been published concerning these autoantibodies and their capacity to cause birth defects by binding/blocking placental folate receptors. If anyone doubts that FRα do in fact block human folate receptors with high affinity, what's implied by its name, there are a good many studies conducted by disciplined biochemists and immunologists on just that. Now, is the rest of you're comment worth reading? Probably not, but I suppose I will. [...]

    '...and Ramaekers et al. somehow forgot to measure whether folate levels (N5 -methyltetrahydrofolate) differed after their milk intervention, allthough [sic] they measured the number of blocked folate receptors. You might argue that they simply forgot about looking into this important fact, or ran out of funding - or you might suspect that they did measure it and didn't really like the results.' —Kartoffel

    He had 'forgot,' really? Do you realize how cerebrospinal fluid is obtained? If so, do you think this is a routine procedure that should be done on children?

    'The study that Travis cited above (2007) actually doesn't have anything to do with milk, and doesn't include the words milk or bovine even once. The one study that he bases his whole milk-folate theory on is this one.' —Kartoffel

    Oh my god people! These folate receptor autoantibodies could have come from anything . . . like pineapples!!! [lol, not]

    'The one study that he bases his whole milk-folate theory on is this one.' —Kartoffel

    You are a liar, and that is one of the reasons why I usually avoid you. Most people consider the practice of lying to be both offensive and undemocratic, Kartoffel, so you should stop doing it.

    And another thing: This is not merely a 'theory,' and it is not solely 'mine' either. These antibodies are proven realities, and so is cerebral folate deficiency. The only novel aspect that I had contributed to this was the potentiation of autoimmunity by homogenization, an idea strongly supported by older science concerning the encapsulation of milk xanthine oxidase and subsequent persorption.
     
  6. Kartoffel

    Kartoffel Member

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    Like what? Are you almost done with your childish behavior? I'm not lying, you just seem unable to comprehend any criticism of your theories, or skip over the crucial parts on purpose, and rely instead on attacking any critics on a personal level. Since I am by no means the only person you have attacked and insulted in this way, I guess that this is just your normal personality.

    In your long list of studies you just posted - how many conducted a trial with milk, and attempted to establish a causal realationship between folate deficiency and dairy? The answer is none, except the first paper I already mentioned. No one in the world of science will call something proven because of one trial that should, in my opinion, be viewed with care for the reasons I mentioned above. Not even your authors.
    First, they were already there in the first place because they speciafically preselected the participants, and, yes, antibodies can come from a lot of things/foods, as even Ray states in his reply. Don't you think it's striking that the follow-up titer was many times greater in the control group compared to baseline levels eventhough they just maintained their old diets?
    For those that are interested here is Ray's reply to Travis theory on folate deficiency and dairy. I guess he is an obnoxious troll as well.

    "There are various reasons that I’m skeptical. With a defective intestinal barrier, any food can be a problem. Chylomicrons transport antigens into the blood. All of that guy’s concerns are in the ballpark of cultural obsessions." (Ray Peat, July 20th 2018)



    He attached the two studies to his reply

    J Am Geriatr Soc. 2014 Jul;62(7):1224-30. doi: 10.1111/jgs.12887. Epub 2014 Jun 10.
    Milk and dairy consumption and risk of dementia in an elderly Japanese population: the Hisayama Study.
    Ozawa M1, Ohara T, Ninomiya T, Hata J, Yoshida D, Mukai N, Nagata M, Uchida K, Shirota T, Kitazono T, Kiyohara Y.

    OBJECTIVES:
    To determine the effect of milk and dairy intake on the development of all-cause dementia and its subtypes in an elderly Japanese population.
    DESIGN:
    Prospective cohort study.
    SETTING:
    The Hisayama Study, Japan.
    PARTICIPANTS:
    Individuals aged 60 and older without dementia (N = 1,081).
    MEASUREMENTS
    Milk and dairy intake was estimated using a 70-item semiquantitative food frequency questionnaire grouped into quartiles. The risk estimates of milk and dairy intake on the development of all-cause dementia, Alzheimer's disease (AD), and vascular dementia (VaD) were computed using a Cox proportional hazards model.
    RESULTS:
    Over 17 years of follow-up, 303 subjects developed all-cause dementia; 166 had AD, and 98 had VaD. The age- and sex-adjusted incidence of all-cause dementia, AD, and VaD significantly decreased as milk and dairy intake level increased (P for trend = .03 for all-cause dementia, .04 for AD, .01 for VaD). After adjusting for potential confounders, the linear relationship between milk and dairy intake and development of AD remained significant (P for trend = .03), whereas the relationships with all-cause dementia and VaD were not significant. The risk of AD was significantly lower in the second, third, and fourth quartiles of milk and dairy intake than in the first quartile.
    CONCLUSION:
    Greater milk and dairy intake reduced the risk of dementia, especially AD, in the general Japanese population

    Mol Pharm. 2017 Nov 6;14(11):3848-3858.
    Regulation of Reduced Folate Carrier (RFC) by Vitamin D Receptor at the Blood-Brain Barrier.
    Alam C1, Hoque MT1, Finnell RH2, Goldman ID3, Bendayan R1.
    Abstract
    Folates are essential for brain development and function. Folate transport in mammalian tissues is mediated by three major folate transport systems, i.e., reduced folate carrier (RFC), proton-coupled folate transporter (PCFT), and folate receptor alpha (FRα), known to be regulated by ligand-activated nuclear receptors, such as vitamin D receptor (VDR). Folate uptake at the choroid plexus, which requires the actions of both FRα and PCFT, is critical to cerebral folate delivery. Inactivating FRα or PCFT mutations cause severe cerebral folate deficiency resulting in early childhood neurodegeneration. The objective of this study was to investigate the role of RFC in folate uptake at the level of the blood-brain barrier (BBB) and its potential regulation by VDR. We detected robust expression of RFC in different in vitro BBB model systems, particularly in immortalized cultures of human cerebral microvascular endothelial cells (hCMEC/D3) and isolated mouse brain capillaries. [3H]-methotrexate uptake by hCMEC/D3 cells at pH 7.4 was inhibited by PT523 and pemetrexed, antifolates with high affinity for RFC. We also showed that activation of VDR through calcitriol (1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3) exposure up-regulates RFC mRNA and protein expression as well as function in hCMEC/D3 cells and isolated mouse brain capillaries. We further demonstrated that RFC expression could be down-regulated by VDR-targeting siRNA, further confirming the role of VDR in the direct regulation of this folate transporter. Together, these data suggest that augmenting RFC functional expression could constitute a novel strategy for enhancing brain folate delivery for the treatment of neurometabolic disorders caused by loss of FRα or PCFT function.
     
  7. Travis

    Travis Member

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    Yes you do lie, and I had just told you that this is no longer 'theoretical?' You cannot rationally argue against the fact that: (1) these autoantibodies exist in reality; (2) they reliably block cerebral folate uptake; (3) cerebral folate uptake lowers brain function; and (4) they are formed in response to a protein found in cow's milk. I am not going to read the rest of your comment, your obnoxious lies and distortions, and please stop responding to my comments.

    Now, if you can somehow find a was to concoct an intelligent response or worthwhile criticism I may think twice.
     
  8. michael94

    michael94 Member

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    Do you drink Co Fe

    I made some "turkish style" but instead of grinding the beans I just simmered them whole with the milch and strained. I used to do the same with just water and felt it was much more gentle than conventionally brewed coffee ( just simmering the beans instead of grinding them).
     
  9. Kartoffel

    Kartoffel Member

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    See, that's what I mean. Where did I lie specifically? I never said they were theoretical or questioned the existence of these peptides. Either, your rage just causes you to read into a comment whatever you want to hear, or you pretend not to notice things on purpose so that you don't have to address the weak spots of your theories. I don't argue against the first three points, I simpy stress that the fourth point (which is what I refer to as your theory the whole time) is based on only one study, and I pointed out the various things that should be considered here: Preselected cases with anitbodies already present, unblinded study design, small number of participants, no follow up folate levels, a leaky intestine as the primary cause, various other things that can result in antibody production, etc.

    If point 4 is so clear, I wonder why there hasn't been any study after 10 years (that I know of - if you have it, please show it to me) to confirm these results.

    Oh, it looks like they didn't have any problem with this procedure to get the initial 5MTHF levels in CSF.
     
  10. Wolf

    Wolf Member

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    I try and avoid drinking cobalt and iron as much as possible.
     
  11. Travis

    Travis Member

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    Folate receptor autoantibodies cause birth defects by blocking folate uptake in the placenta, where they'd originally been discovered, making your moron distortion tactics borderline criminal. Didn't you read that study about cleft-palate, αsshole?
     
  12. Kartoffel

    Kartoffel Member

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    I see, now everyone "denying" that milk causes folate deficiency is borderline criminal and a moron. I'll let people here judge for themselves who is beeing unreasonable. What is a cleft-palate αsshole? I know it's wrong to say this, but it sounds extremely funny.
     
  13. Travis

    Travis Member

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    You're the only one doing this Kartoffel; don't confabulate popularity for your stance.
     
  14. Kartoffel

    Kartoffel Member

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    Aha, so everyone on this forum agrees with your theory, is that right? Ray Peat doesn't agree with you as his email response shows. Is he a criminal moron?
     
  15. Travis

    Travis Member

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    That purported 'Ray Peat' comment that you had showed me earlier was a one line off-hand remark, having absolutely no logical basis. It was completely devoid of content.

    Since you are a confirmed liar, I will accept only screenshots as proof that he had actually said as claimed. Yet as I've told you before, It would mean little to me if he had actually made that comment. It was only one sentence, Potato Guy.

    P.S. I don't really think your a moron, but merely pretending to be: This is the only way to maintain the impression of sincerity when denying obvious and confirmed facts.
     
  16. michael94

    michael94 Member

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    exakt
     
  17. Kartoffel

    Kartoffel Member

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    Am I? Well, if you say so, Trav. Here you go.

    upload_2018-7-21_23-24-45.png
     
  18. Travis

    Travis Member

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    And what what your inquiry that had inspired that response? Knowing you, I bet you had made a mockery out science while trying to explain antibodies to Ray Peat.

    Of course, not 'any food can be a problem:' The protein antigen has to be similar enough to the brain folate receptor for the antibody raised in response to have affinity for it.
     
  19. Kartoffel

    Kartoffel Member

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    I think Ray understands the concept of an antibody without me explaining it to him. Here is my initial inquiry. In case I didn't explain it very well, I also attached the full text study to the email (you want a screenshot of that as well?)

    upload_2018-7-22_0-10-56.png

    To this he simply replied: "There are various reasons why I'm sceptical" and attached the two studies I posted above. I then asked, if he would care to elaborate, which yielded the response I already posted.

    upload_2018-7-22_0-15-22.png
     
  20. Travis

    Travis Member

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    Perhaps you really are sincere, but you're still wrong. Nothing better explains low cerebral spinal fluid folate concentrations concomitant with normal plasma concentrations of same, especially since these criteria are always accompanied by FRα antibodies.

    You don't really ever truly think do you? You ought to read a few more studies if you're interested. You are selling yourself short by attaching so much weight to a Ray Peat one-liner, an offhand comment—especially since he's old, committed, and has been promoting milk for decades.

    I have been saying that native cow's milk may be 100% safe, yet it's the process of homogenization that facilitates large peptide persorption. You can still have you 'sacred cow,' as long as you can view homogenization as a modern modification of a naturally-safe product—a process inspired by vanity, not safety, as separation is just an esthetic concern.
     
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