Estrogen In Milk

Discussion in 'Doubts About Milk' started by Michele M, Aug 18, 2013.

  1. Michele M

    Michele M New Member

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    Has Ray Peat addressed the estrogen content in Milk? Not just from hormone treated cows, but the common practice of milking very pregnant cows and the estrogens that end up in the milk?

    " Part of the problem seems to be milk from modern dairy farms, where cows are milked about 300 days a year. For much of that time, the cows are pregnant. The later in pregnancy a cow is, the more hormones appear in her milk.

    Milk from a cow in the late stage of pregnancy contains up to 33 times as much of a signature estrogen compound (estrone sulfate) than milk from a non-pregnant cow. "

    source: http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/200 ... dairy.html

    I am so interested in Peat's way of eating and treating estrogen dominance issues but I cant tolerate dairy at all. I immediately get PMS symptoms (regardless of what time of month it is) if I drink milk. Even the raw grass fed organic milk that I have access too. Im fairly sure its because most if not all dairies milk pregnant cows now days.

    thanks!
    Michele
     
  2. HDD

    HDD Member

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    "High estrogen, relative to progesterone, interferes with lactation, and the enzymes that convert estradiol to the less active estrone and estriol are increased by progesterone. The amount of estradiol in milk is usually much less than one microgram per liter, and it's concentrated in the cream, so low-fat milk has very little estrogen. The cow's diet is probably a more important factor in the estrogen content of milk than pregnancy. The information in that abstract isn't enough to tell whether the study was done properly."

    This is from Ray Peat's Brain on Danny Roddy's site.
     
  3. HDD

    HDD Member

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    Welcome, Michele!
     
  4. HDD

    HDD Member

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    Some more quotes from "Ray Peat's Brain" -

    "Have you experimented with milk from different sources? Sometimes the goats or cows eat allergenic things, or have bacteria that disturb the intestine. Have you tried boiled or ultrapasteurized milk? Is the cheese the original Parmigiano Reggiano? If you can list all the foods that you have had in the last day or two, I might see some things that are affecting your hormones. Anything that irritates your intestine or increases bacterial activity in the small intestine can increase the absorption of bacterial endotoxin, and that lowers testosterone and thyroid hormone, and increases cortisol. Reducing endotoxin might be all it takes to correct the hormones. Have you had blood tests for thyroid or other hormones?"

    "I normally use pasteurized (and homogenized) milk, and I know people who do best when they use ultrapasteurized milk, and many people who, especially in certain seasons, don't tolerate raw milk. Cows' bacteria change according to what they are eating, and sometimes even the low level of bacteria in pasteurized milk can upset the person's intestinal balance of bacteria."


    To reduce Endotoxin, a daily carrot salad is recommended or bamboo shoots.
     
  5. OP
    Michele M

    Michele M New Member

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    I have experimented with many different types of milk over the years and I get the same response. This has been going on a while.

    Kind of a mess right now though

    Im on thyroid hormones for Hashimoto's. My doctor had me tested for gluten and gluten cross reactive foods reactions and I had many of those. Since I cut those out of my diet Ive actually seen my thyroid antibody levels come down significantly. Im kind of excited about that

    I had a surgery on July 3 for uterine fibroids (baseball and grapefruit sized fibroids) and Ive had endometriosis since I was 14 or so (Im now 43) There is still some gas from the surgery in my abdomen that is causing irritation. Im not sure there is much I can do about that but wait for it to go away.

    I have also had a pain next to my belly button for 4 years. I could not eat raw fruits or veggies and basically lived on soup and mushy food or that time. No doctor could tell me what it was and I kept being referred to therapists. The doc that did the fibroid surgery looked in that area and it was an adhesion that had formed from a previous surgery for endometriosis. My small intestine was glued to my abdomen wall. He cut the adhesion and I feel sooooooo much better. (I really cant overstate how much that messed up my life)

    So I feel like I need to take things really slow. I have had an enormous number of food allergy/reactions over the years and I dont think Im out of the woods yet. My stomach is still very irritated and Im paranoid about new adhesions from the surgery I just had.

    Dairy was one of the gluten cross reactive foods I tested positive for so hormonal issues aside Im not going to experiment with that one for a while. I still cant eat beef or lamb for some reason. I tried it several weeks after the surgery and it just seemed too hard to digest. Im thinking of trying it again sometime soon. I eat a lot of squash (winter and summer) skinless chicken, pastured pork, broth, gelatin, oj and fruit. Ive always reacted badly to seafood so Im in no hurry to try that. (I know Im getting PUFAs from the chicken and pork but I feel limited on protein sources)

    Im doing the carrot salad and OJ (no way in hell I could have eaten either one of those before that adhesion was cut) I can tell they are helping.

    Sorry for the info dump, I think you pulled a thread, lol
     
  6. Jenn

    Jenn Member

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    A cow will HAVE to have higher progesterone levels than estrogen levels in late pregnancy to keep the calf. Milk is a good source of progesterone. A commercial dairy cow will be eating some kind of dairy pellet or TMR that will contain soy and or alfalfa and or distillers grains and or cottenseed meal etc. They clean it up a lot, but not necessarily 100%. The food the cow eats is more important than whether the cow is pregnant or not for quality of milk.
     
  7. Mynona

    Mynona New Member

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    [ moderator edit: threads merged ]

    I live in Sweden, and there are no hormones added to the cows diet. The kind of milk I buy is not from 100 % grass fed cows, but has the least grains in our country. I buy unpasteurized from a farmer.

    Even this kind of milk is then said to give too much estrogen simply due to the fact that lactating cows must have a calf every year, and therefore are pregnant almost all time.

    Not only estrogen (oestradiol) is then raised, but also progesterone.

    How goes this estrogen and milk with Ray Peats diet for low estrogen that includes milk?

    And what about IGF-1 that is said to be very good AND very bad depending in many different infosites. May it be due to circumstances? When one is "broken down" as I after years of eating disorder and bad food, IGF-1 could be great, but not for maintenence in fully healthy people?

    And may estrogen raising in milk drinking be the cause of people having bigger breast? Or the IGF-1 cause people saying they grew in length?

    I guess this is very complicated, and that everyone has as different needs so that the best food for one, is causing inflammation in another?

    What are your thought about this estrogen and milk, or IGF-1 good or bad?
     
  8. Slappy Hands

    Slappy Hands Member

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tX4ig1sFJo

    Apparently the estrogen in milk is low, comparatively. Especially in skimmed milk where most of the fat is removed. IIRC the calcium content also negates some of the problems.
     
  9. Peatri Dish

    Peatri Dish Member

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    RP says in a KMUD interview - I think the one on calcium - that the progesterone in milk is much higher and offsets any estrogen.
     
  10. HDD

    HDD Member

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    [ESTROGEN IN MILK] High estrogen, relative to progesterone, interferes with lactation, and the enzymes that convert estradiol to the less active estrone and estriol are increased by progesterone. The amount of estradiol in milk is usually much less than one microgram per liter, and it's concentrated in the cream, so low-fat milk has very little estrogen. The cow's diet is probably a more important factor in the estrogen content of milk than pregnancy. The information in that abstract isn't enough to tell whether the study was done properly.
    http://peatarian.com/peatexchanges
     
  11. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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  12. Mynona

    Mynona New Member

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    Thanks for your input. I listened to the interview with questions.

    I havent much to add for now, are stressed out, unfortunately.

    I buy unpasteurized milk, but it is full fat. It has been fed organic food, but not grass only, but also organic grains. No poison, but not optimal either.

    HDD, in what way does high estrogen to progesteron interfere with lactation? Increasing prolactine?
     
  13. HDD

    HDD Member

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    I am not sure, Mynona, it is a quote from a Ray Peat email.
     
  14. Blossom

    Blossom Moderator

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    I'm speculating but it sounds like if the cow's estrogen was too high she wouldn't be able to lactate. Maybe someone will speak up if they disagree with my interpretation.
     
  15. lindsay

    lindsay Member

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    I never did well with lots of milk when I was in a more hypothyroid state - it seemed to lead to water weight gain and estrogen dominant symptoms. It wasn't until I started adding other things into my diet that I could tolerate milk & dairy better. Now I take a K2 supplement and progesterone, along with 1 grain of Cynoplus. I can tolerate dairy much better as a result, but still avoid lots of just plain old milk. I'm leaning towards the idea that fermented dairy is better (because of K2), but everyone is different. Some people can drink lots of milk and are fine, some can't. I drink it in my coffee and call it a day. The rest of my calcium I get from cheese - such as cheddar, gouda, etc. - and yogurt. Although Ray Peat advocates milk, he has mentioned in his books that a high calcium diet can be dangerous under the influence of estrogen, so it's best to make sure that if you fit into that category, you are getting plenty of other pro-thyroid substances and adequate K2 (which is very important for regulating calcium). Also, magnesium is another important mineral for balancing calcium.

    Regarding the raw milk, one advantage to raw milk is being able to skim the cream off the top naturally, without adding vitamins to the milk. Just let the milk sit until cream/milk separate and you should be able to pour enough off the top to equal one or two percent. Also, I recall a study someone posted once to Peatarian that commercial brands of skim milk have higher estrogen than full fat milk. If I can find the study, I will post it here.
     
  16. Mynona

    Mynona New Member

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    Thanks again all :)

    I get K2 from Thorne D3+K2, but can only take 2 drops, since I get toxic levels of D (not just over the lab-range, but well over that, 350+ nmol). Maybe I should get just K2. But I have no idea of dosing. I emailed with Joey Lott and he thought I could wait until I was better. Well maybe it is time.

    Does yoghurt contain K2? I eat yoghurt, homemade, and also have kefir (which the other eats, I have a crave for yoghurt for now, greek yoghurt culture that is adapting to my environment since I take a bit from my old yoghurt to make new one).

    Milk seams like a complicating thing, as do the connections and proportions between calcium, magnesium, D, K and estrogen :S

    Blossom: I came to think about when I was pregnant with my second child, my first was breast fed without problems (he is one year younger, so was under 1 year old). But estrogen is raised several hundred times during pregnancy in people (said on some sites I googled). I found 33 times for cows, buy maybe that is wrong, or was for different times during the pregnancy.
     
  17. tara

    tara Member

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    If I've understood it right, estrogen goes up in pregnancy, but so does progesterone. If the progesterone gets as high as it is supposed to, that provides protection against the estrogen - that's one of its main jobs.
     
  18. Mynona

    Mynona New Member

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    Since English is not my first language, did I understand correct from earlier replies, that the estrogen high during pregnancy, is not the most bad one?
     
  19. tara

    tara Member

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    Hej Mynona, jag kan inte foerklara detta paa Svenska - hoppas det hjaelper aendaa. :)
    My understanding - I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong - is that estrogen is necessary at some stages for a pregnancy to be initiated. Maybe it also has a role in the early growth of the fetus, but I'm not sure about that. Higher than normal levels of progesterone are needed to sustain a healthy pregnancy. If progesterone levels are high enough, a new pregnancy cannot begin. They get should get very high before birth. So if you want to get pregnant, a little estrogen is good. But as far as I know it is much more common for it to be too high than too low. But beyond its few necessary roles, which are mostly brief, estrogen causes a lot of problems, and needs to be controlled by progesterone. The more progesterone there is, the less problems the estrogen can cause. During a healthy pregnancy, the progesterone to estrogen ratio is higher than during non-pregnancy. If the progesterone:estrogen ratio is too low, miscarriages occur. So wrt to the estrogen in milk, the estrogen itself is not great, but hopefully there is a good ratio of progesterone along with it to prevent it causing additional problems.
     
  20. thegiantess

    thegiantess Member

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    [moderator edit: topics merged]

    Hey there,

    New to the forum, but have been familiar with Peat for a few years. I decided to finally post because I have wondered for some time now how we reconcile the estrogen content of milk? Considering most cows are kept pregnant constantly, and therefore would be excreting a decent amount of estrogen into their milk.. shouldn't this be a concern especially for a community that aims to keep estrogen as low as possible? As far as I know Peat himself has never addresses this.. am I missing something?

    Thanks!
     
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