Phytoestrogens In Soy Vs. Estrogens In Milk

Discussion in 'Doubts About Milk' started by chrismeyers, Oct 26, 2016.

  1. chrismeyers

    chrismeyers Member

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    [ moderator edit: posts moved from Estrogen In Milk ]

    I can conclusively say that milk without a doubt is the best and least estrogenic protein source out there. I kind of laugh when I hear this stuff because America is inundated with soy protein and oils as an alternate to animal sources and that sh- is 100 times more estrogenic. People have been drinking milk for centuries.
     
  2. Travis

    Travis Member

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    @chrismeyers

    LOL. Your "least estrogenic protein source" has more estrogen per gram protein than any known food; and soy has no estrogen at all.
     
  3. OP
    chrismeyers

    chrismeyers Member

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    D . Ddd. .
    Do me a favor. Go look at ANY group of kids fed soy formula exclusively vs cows milk exclusively and you tell me who ends up having all of the hormonal issues. Your theory is a farce. Cows milk has been fed across the board in northern Europe for 1000 years and never led to any problems whatsoever. I dont know if your supposed estrogen content in milk vs soy is true, but the environment created is poles apart in humans. And by the way heres some more common sense for you. Cows milk (another mammal) feeds and develops both male and female cows now doesnt it? So maybe your estrogen content then means a grand total of nothing.
     
  4. Travis

    Travis Member

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    Well Chris. I did look at a few controlled studies. These are better than groups of kids fed formula because they control for all variables.
    Effect of Soymilk Consumption on Serum Estrogen and Androgen Concentrations in Japanese Men
    Exposure to exogenous estrogen through intake of commercial milk produced from pregnant cows
    Ha. Big words for someone who said: "[soy] is 100 times more estrogenic" and "[milk] best and least estrogenic protein source out there". Both of these are lies. Cite one source that says anything has more estrogen than Dairy; or that soy is 100 times more estrogenic! You can't! I have already read the studies Chris.
    Really? I don't remember reading any medieval study that controlled for milk consumption. Citation needed. Even epidemiology didn't exist back then, so I have a hard time wondering how you can make this claim.
    Really? Ok. I will say this is the most simple way possible: Milk has estrogen; real estrogen. Soy has molecules that are somewhat similar, but they are not estrogen. Soy has 0% estrogen. Let's look at them so you don't get confused:
    estrone.pnggenistein.png
    On the left is estrone, and on the right is genistein. One is an estrogen; and the other is very weak in hormonal activity by comparison.
    Only after parturition Chris. The estrogen content decreases at parturition and prolactin goes up. The estrogen content from nursing cows is over ten times lower than that the estrogen content during the third trimester.

    The milk in this country comes from pregnant cows! This is not natural at all. Your Europeans you alluded too in your camelot yearnings above no doubt drank milk from non-pregnant cows.hormones.jpg
     
  5. Travis

    Travis Member

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    Chris Meyers. Shilling for the Dairy Industry?

    13/17 of his total comments mention the word "milk". Don't believe me? Check yourself!
     
  6. OP
    chrismeyers

    chrismeyers Member

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    LOL Yeah Im a milk industry shill. *rolls his eyes* I live in Seattle and work for a high tech company. Sorry for not being so exciting ;-) And yeah I post a lot about milk because like most Peaters I drink a lot of milk. And honestly hearing all of this over analysis of a product which forms the basis of my ancestry's diet makes me laugh. I have a general theory that anything used for thousands of years has been well tested and approved. I mean yes Im all for organic and grass fed milk if available but give me a break with the milk is a health hazard for x y and z reason. Vegetable and seed oils virtually didnt exist 100 years ago. PUFAs were naturally limited in animal fats. Milk has always conversely been there
     
  7. Travis

    Travis Member

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    Be careful with that strawman Chris. This thread is about estrogen content in modern cow's milk; nothing more.

    Well, you certainly aren't talking about recombinant bovine somatotropin. Trying to equate non-pregnant cow's milk 1000 years ago with modern pregnant cow's milk? Soy was used for 1000 years as well.

    The estrogenic potential of soy is the favorite hed-herring of the Dairy industry. This is a non-argument and you played this card. You said that soy was 100 times more estrogenic and you will not cite a single source; and you can't.

    I caught you spouting pseudoscientific lies. Maybe you should spend more time reading about chemistry than 'computer programming', or whatever your cover is.

    Wrong again Chris! Flaxseed (linseed) oil has been pressed (expelled) for centuries. Want proof? Then go to a good art museum. The evidence is dried on the canvases.

    Asians have been using sesame seed oil for thousands of years.
     
  8. lisaferraro

    lisaferraro Member

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    Curious @Travis, are you against dairy: like milk, butter, cheese? You have posted and researched extensively against them. Just wondering your motive? Especially on this forum that educates people about Ray Peat?
     
  9. Travis

    Travis Member

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    I like cheese, but I stopped eating it. What I am against is people posting lies, pseudoscience, and fake testimonials. Let us look at what Chris posted:
    What? Dairy from pregnant cows is certainly not the least estrogenic thing out there! It actually has estrogen; and thousands of foods have neither estrogen nor xenoestrogens. This is a ridiculous statement! He goes on:
    Another false statement. On an equimolar basis, estradiol is more estrogenic that genistein; the soy isoflavone. From a study:
    They fed the rats 750 times more soy xenoestrogen than estradiol, and even then it did not exert the influence that estradiol did. Soy isoflavones are in reality ~10² less estrogenic than estradiol, thich puts Chris' statement off by a factor of ~10⁴! Here is another quote:
    This appears to be the consensus. Defending dairy hormonal content by attacking soy is simply a red-herring. My theory is that the soy incurred the wrath of the dairy industry by selling "soy milk"; a product that threatened the profits of the dairy industry. We don't hear much about phytoestrogens in nuts do we? From Wiki:
    Nuts were the highest. Why not concentrate on nuts? And Chris concludes with this:
    And this is the only true thing that he actually said. No problem with that statement.

    I don't eat soy. Soy has other problems besides xenoestrogens. I think tofu might have aluminum from processing (Al vats); I haven't looked into this. There are also toxins in beans in general; like ricin from the castor bean and phytohaemagglutinin from kidney beans. There are much better things to eat IMO than beans. Ray Peat doesn't eat beans either.

    I just think people should get the facts straight so they can make informed choices.



     
  10. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

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    Travis,

    I like your posts. Honestly.

    What's the damn problem with dairy though? The estrogens? You already discussed that in another thread and you made wrong numbers, right? It turned out Ray was right and estrogen content of milk was minimum.

    In a liter of milk you get something like 40 grams carbs, 30 grams complete protein with good AA's ratio, and some sat fat depending on type of dairy. You get calcium, iodine, fat solubles, and some other micronutrients. All of that for 1 buck or one euro. Sometimes even less. Easily to stock and store. Can bring it easily everywhere. Can drink it cold or hot. Mixes well with almost everything. How can you beat that? It's impossible.

    [ moderator edit: reply here, moved to thread where the discussion started. ]
     
  11. jyb

    jyb Member

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    Let the bacteria degrade the estrogen. Bring on the cheese?
     
  12. lisaferraro

    lisaferraro Member

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    Cool. Thank you. Just curious. Not criticizing @Travis. Trying to figure out where you are coming from as you put it considerable time and sincere effort in your posts. Like @Makrosky I have enjoyed some of them - tbt...haven't read them all *guiltily smiles*.
     
  13. Giraffe

    Giraffe Member

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    Soy and phytoestrogens: possible side effects
     
  14. Giraffe

    Giraffe Member

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    Daidzein - Wikipedia
    In some humans daidzein can be transformed to equol by the intestinal flora.

    http://www.jbc.org/content/287/50/41640.long
    S-Equol, a potent ligand for estrogen receptor β, is the exclusive enantiomeric form of the soy isoflavone metabolite produced by human intestinal bacterial flora
    S-equol (the only enantiomer found in human plasma and urine) "has a relatively high affinity for ERβ and is in fact a more potent estrogen than is estradiol".
     
  15. Travis

    Travis Member

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    Interesting. That study was really cool, but I am puzzled by one of his concluding remarks:
    S-equol binds to estrogen receptor (β) about 20% as much as estradiol. The authors admit this, and they state:
    So it binds estrogen receptor (α) only 2% as much as estradiol, and estrogen receptor (β) about 20% as much. Yet, they imply that S-equol is more estrogenic if it binds. Their contention that:
    ...is not supported by this study. The study that you linked didn't measure these parameters, and proof for this can be presumably found in the footnotes. Citations (4042).

    I examined the first citation (40). This study measures binding affinity, transcription of an enzyme in yeast, and growth of MCF-7 (breast cancer) cells. The article is called Interaction of Phytoestrogens with Estrogen Receptors α and β. This study does not seem to support the idea that equol is more estrogenic than estradiol. This study is cool because they measured bisphenol-A as well. As an aside:
    Diethylstilbestrol (synthetic pharmaceutical) binds almost as strongly as estradiol, and bisphenol-A needs a 104X concentration relative to estradiol to have the same binding affinity. This is how they interpret the data, and it is somewhat confusing. I suppose you could say that bisphenol-A has 104 times weaker binding potential. Now on to equol:
    So equol is the strongest phytoestrogen as measured by transcription, but it only binds at 1/5th the rate of estradiol on the β-receptor. So how strong is it in inducing transcription and growth? You have to look at Table 6 and find out. This is .pdf so I cannot post the graph.

    Table 6 (A) shows binding affinity. Estradiol is black circles and equol is white circles.
    Table 6 (B) shows transcription as a function of concentration (M). The x-axis is logarithmic.
    Table 6 (C) shows growth of MCF-7 cells as a function of concentration.


    It looks like equol has less binding affinity, produces less transcription, and stimulates less growth in the MCF-7 cells than estradiol; a weaker estrogen on all counts. I have seen nothing to indicate that equol is more estrogenic than estradiol. Maybe one of the other two citations that Kenneth Setchell mentioned will have different results. [citation #41 and #42]

    I don't think I am misinterpreting their data in light of their closing remarks:
    So I stand by by contention that soy phytoestrogens are about 100 times weaker. The graph shows MCF-7 cell growth for estradiol at a concentration of 10⁻¹²M and it takes a higher concentration of 10⁻¹⁰M to produce the same growth with equol.

    10⁻¹²M - 10⁻¹⁰M = 10⁻²M

    The difference is 1/10²
     
  16. Peater Piper

    Peater Piper Member

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    I don't think you can judge the estrogenic nature of a food simply by looking at the estrogen or phytoestrogen content. Not all milk is from pregnant cows, and not all soy is consumed as soy milk.
     
  17. tobieagle

    tobieagle Guest

    Source? Looks like a 5 minute MS-paint job.

    And are the plasma concentrations proportional to the concentrations in the milk?

    What about the firstpass effect of ingested estrogens,prolactin and corticosteroids?

    But in the end it's probably negligible, as the evidence and personal observations indicate.
    Milk and milk products are the superior foods compared to soy products.
    And that was chrismeyers main point I guess.
     
  18. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

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    Thanks Giraffe... So glad you always keep an eye on these claims.
     
  19. milk_lover

    milk_lover Member

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    Do people following Ray Peat really put soy next to the best food on the planet, milk? shaking my head.
     
  20. Travis

    Travis Member

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    That graph was simply heuristic. Would you like a more accurate one?
    Preghorm.gif
    Yes. Take a look at this paper:
    Health Effects of Cow's Milk
    Ganmaa Davaasambuu, MD
    Harvard School of Public Health

    Or take a look at Figure 5a and Firgure 6a from Urinary Estrone Sulfate for Monitoring Pregnancy of Dairy Cows. They plot estrogen vs days of pregnancy.

    Or Figure 2 from Concentrations of oestrone sulphate in milk during pregnancy in dairy cows. You can download the .pdf for free. The concentration of estrone in milk can be used as an indicator of pregnancy.

    Not the evidence that I saw. See Exposure to exogenous estrogen through intake of commercial milk produced from pregnant cows if you don't think it can effect plasma concentrations. Where is your evidence to the contrary?

    Chris Meyer's didn't make a point; he made a slur. All he said were lies.
     

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