Estrogen In Milk

[thegiantess]

....nevermind. I see this has been addressed here before and Peat seems to think that the progesterone content should balance the estrogen content and also that the estrogen would live mostly in the fat. Got it!

 

[ATP]

I am confused at to why Ray encourages the consumption of milk. From what I understand milk contains significant amounts of estrogen, which is counter productive if you are trying to minimise the estrogen in your body. If someone were to drink as much milk as Ray recommends they would definitely increase estrogen in their body.

I am missing something here?

 

[Giraffe]

post 118647 I am missing something here?

Hi Jayegray, we had already (two?) threads about estrogen in milk. I have therefore moved your post.

I hope this thread or the other one(s) in sub-forum Doubts About Milk answers your question.

 

[Hasen]

"High estrogen, relative to progesterone, interferes with lactation, and the enzymes that convert estradiol to the less active estrone and estriol are increased by progesterone. The amount of estradiol in milk is usually much less than one microgram per liter, and it's concentrated in the cream, so low-fat milk has very little estrogen. The cow's diet is probably a more important factor in the estrogen content of milk than pregnancy. The information in that abstract isn't enough to tell whether the study was done properly."

This is from Ray Peat's Brain on Danny Roddy's site.

That's weird because the studies show the opposite, that skimmed milk has the most estrogen and is the worst.

 

[thegiantess]

That's weird because the studies show the opposite, that skimmed milk has the most estrogen and is the worst.

Do you have links to the studies you reference? It doesn't make logical sense that skim milk, which is just water and protein and milk sugar, would be higher in hormones. Hormones like fat.

 

[Hasen]

Do you have links to the studies you reference? It doesn't make logical sense that skim milk, which is just water and protein and milk sugar, would be higher in hormones. Hormones like fat.

I was surprised too. Its arguable whether skimmed or full fat are really the worst but its the conclusion of this video that skimmed was worse



The actual article is member only but you can see it in this video. All you can really conclude is that they're both bad.

 

[Giraffe]

That's weird because the studies show the opposite, that skimmed milk has the most estrogen and is the worst.

This doesn't make sense. Milk producers take the cream out of the milk and put some of it back in.

There are some data in this article:

Hormones in Dairy Foods and Their Impact on Public Health - A Narrative Review Article

All you can really conclude is that they're both bad.

This guy has an agenda. Do not blindly believe what he says; do you own research.

 

[Hasen]

This doesn't make sense. Milk producers take the cream out of the milk and put some of it back in.

There are some data in this article:

Hormones in Dairy Foods and Their Impact on Public Health - A Narrative Review Article

This guy has an agenda. Do not blindly believe what he says; do you own research.

I posted the video so you could see the article. It shows the amounts of hormones in each type of milk. Besides he's pro vegan so there's no reason for him to recommend milk of any type...certainly no reason to recommend skimmed over full fat. Like I said, its just in the study he cited.

Your article barely even mentions skimmed milk. All it seems to talk about is the progesterone but then doesn't mention it again. If you look at the article in the video it seems to go into more detail about estrogens. Its not as simple as you would think.

 

[Giraffe]

I posted the video so you could see the article. It shows the amounts of hormones in each type of milk.

Does the result make sense to you?

Besides he's pro vegan so there's no reason for him to recommend milk of any type...certainly no reason to recommend skimmed over full fat.

I was refering to your statement, "All you can really conclude is that they're both bad."

Your article barely even mentions skimmed milk.

From the article I linked:

The distribution of estrogens especially 17β-oestradiol in fat or non-fat parts of milk still is controversial, as Abeyawardene and co-workers reported that 52% of 17β-oestradiol content in milk is distributed in fat phase, in contrast Lopez and his team demonstrated that there is no difference in 17β-oestradiol concentrations between milk samples which processed as composite whole milk or composite defatted milk (91, 92).

By the way, the progesterone in milk is protective.

 

[Hasen]

Does the result make sense to you?

Without seeing the article itself its not easy to analyse. All you can say is that was the conclusion of the scientists that conducted the study.

The distribution of estrogens especially 17β-oestradiol in fat or non-fat parts of milk still is controversial, as Abeyawardene and co-workers reported that 52% of 17β-oestradiol content in milk is distributed in fat phase, in contrast Lopez and his team demonstrated that there is no difference in 17β-oestradiol concentrations between milk samples which processed as composite whole milk or composite defatted milk (91, 92).

Somewhat unconclusive. Why do you take that as proof that skimmed milk is fine? One conclusion is that its still controversial and the second part shows no difference between all types of milk..couldn't really be any less supportive of your argument to be honest.

By the way, the progesterone in milk is protective.

Yes that's Ray's explanation. Yes it has estrogen but the progesterone makes up for it. Sorry but you have very little to suggest that skimmed milk is good. My conclusion is that there's at least evidence for any fat level milk to be potentially bad and that seems to even be the conclusion in the latter part of your quote as well....so perhaps avoidance altogether as I suggested is prudent.

 

[Mittir]

I think this link was posted before or a similar study.

Measurement of estrogens in cow's milk, human milk, and dairy products.
Wolford ST, Argoudelis CJ.
Abstract
Free natural estrogens in raw and commercial whole milk were quantitated by radioimmunoassay. The ranges of concentration of estrone, estradiol 17-beta, and estriol were 34 to 55, 4 to 14, and 9 to 31 pg/ml. Proportions of active estrogens (estrone and estradiol) in the fat phases of milk by radioactive tracer on separated milk were 80% and 65%. These findings were supported by radioimmunoassay of skim milk and butter. Equilibrium dialysis of skim milk with hydrogen 3 labeled estrogens showed that 84 to 85% of estrone and estradiol and 61 to 66% of estriol were protein bound. Whey proteins demonstrated a greater binding capacity than casein. This result was confirmed by radioimmunoassay of dry curd cottage cheese and whey. The concentrations in curd were 35, 11, and 6 pg/g. In whey they were 4, 2, and 3 pg/ml. The quantity of active estrogens in dairy products is too low to demonstrate biological activity. Butter was highest with concentrations of 539, 82, and 87 pg/g. Human colostrum demonstrated a maximum concentration of 4 to 5 ng/ml for estrone and estriol and about .5 ng/ml for estradiol. By the 5th day postpartum, they decreased to become similar to cow's milk.

Dairy Sci. 2010 Jun;93(6):2533-40. doi: 10.3168/jds.2009-2947.
Estrone and 17beta-estradiol concentrations in pasteurized-homogenized milk and commercial dairy products.
Pape-Zambito DA1, Roberts RF, Kensinger RS.
Some individuals fear that estrogens in dairy products may stimulate growth of estrogen-sensitive cancers in humans. The presence of estrone (E(1)) and 17beta-estradiol (E(2)) in raw whole cow’s milk has been demonstrated. The objectives of this study were to determine if pasteurization-homogenization affects E(2) concentration in milk and to quantify E(1) and E(2) concentrations in commercially available dairy products. The effects of pasteurization-homogenization were tested by collecting fresh raw milk, followed by pasteurization and homogenization at 1 of 2 homogenization pressures. All treated milks were tested for milk fat globule size, percentages of milk fat and solids, and E(2) concentrations. Estrone and E(2) were quantified from organic or conventional skim, 1%, 2%, and whole milks, as well as half-and-half, cream, and butter samples. Estrone and E(2) were quantified by RIA after organic solvent extractions and chromatography. Pasteurization-homogenization reduced fat globule size, but did not significantly affect E(2), milk fat, or milk solids concentrations. Estrone concentrations averaged 2.9, 4.2, 5.7, 7.9, 20.4, 54.1 pg/mL, and 118.9 pg/g in skim, 1%, 2%, and whole milks, half-and-half, cream, and butter samples, respectively. 17Beta-estradiol concentrations averaged 0.4, 0.6, 0.9, 1.1, 1.9, 6.0 pg/mL, and 15.8 pg/g in skim, 1%, 2%, whole milks, half-and-half, cream, and butter samples, respectively. The amount of fat in milk significantly affected E(1) and E(2) concentrations in milk. Organic and conventional dairy products did not have substantially different concentrations of E(1) and E(2).Compared with information cited in the literature, concentrations of E(1) and E(2) in bovine milk are small relative to endogenous production rates of E(1) and E(2) in humans.

J Dairy Sci. 2007 Jul;90(7):3308-13.

The guy in the video cited the followingstudy which included both conjugated and uncojugated
estrogen metabolites. In this study they found unconjugated estrogen metabolites
were lower in skim milk than whole milk. We know estradiol is the most active
estrogen. I do not know how active conjugated estrogen metabolites are,
but first study measured unconjgated (Free) part. Second study did not mention
if it is unconjugated or conjugated plus uncojugated. It appears to be free unconjugated estrogen.

Quantitative measurement of endogenous estrogen metabolites, risk-factors for development of breast cancer, in commercial milk products by LC-MS/MS.
Farlow DW1, Xu X, Veenstra TD.
Author information

Abstract
Increased levels of estrogen metabolites (EM) are associated with cancers of the reproductive system. One potential dietary source of EM is milk. In this study, the absolute quantities of unconjugated (free) and unconjugated plus conjugated (total) EM were measured in a variety of commercial milks (whole, 2%, skim, and buttermilk). The results show that the milk products tested contain considerable levels of EM; however, the levels of unconjugated EM in skim milk were substantially lower than that observed in whole milk, 2% milk, and buttermilk. Whole milk contained the lowest overall levels of EM while buttermilk contained the highest. As anticipated, soy milk did not contain the mammalian EM measured using this method. The relatively high levels of catechol estrogens detected in milk products support the theory that milk consumption is a source of EM and their ingestion may have a dietary influence on cancer risk.

 

[Hasen]

I think this link was posted before or a similar study.
The quantity of active estrogens in dairy products is too low to demonstrate biological activity. Butter was highest with concentrations of 539, 82, and 87 pg/g. Human colostrum demonstrated a maximum concentration of 4 to 5 ng/ml for estrone and estriol and about .5 ng/ml for estradiol. By the 5th day postpartum, they decreased to become similar to cow's milk.

The study I linked to unfortunately can't be viewed for free so can't be sure about their conclusions. I'm always skeptical towards an article that overall suggests there's nothing wrong with milk since we know how huge the dairy industry is.

The results show that the milk products tested contain considerable levels of EM; however, the levels of unconjugated EM in skim milk were substantially lower than that observed in whole milk, 2% milk, and buttermilk. Whole milk contained the lowest overall levels of EM while buttermilk contained the highest. As anticipated, soy milk did not contain the mammalian EM measured using this method. The relatively high levels of catechol estrogens detected in milk products support the theory that milk consumption is a source of EM and their ingestion may have a dietary influence on cancer risk.

The other article also found buttermilk to be the worst but skimmed milk second to it. It also shows in your article here that whole milk contains the lowest levels of EM.

 

[Hasen]

"The measurable level of P in dairy foods and commercial milk products by using radioimmunoassay was 1.4, 6, 17, 12, 98, 43, and 300 ng/ml or ng/g in skim milk, butter milk, skim milk powder, drinking milk, milk powder, cream and butter, respectively. "

This article, correct me if I'm wrong, also states that progesterone is low in skimmed milk, not high? Not sure what they mean by 'drinking milk' though.

1.4, 6, 17, 12, 98, 43, and 300 ng/ml
skim milk, butter milk, skim milk powder, drinking milk, milk powder, cream and butter

 

[Mittir]

The study I linked to unfortunately can't be viewed for free so can't be sure about their conclusions. I'm always skeptical towards an article that overall suggests there's nothing wrong with milk since we know how huge the dairy industry is.



The other article also found buttermilk to be the worst but skimmed milk second to it. It also shows in your article here that whole milk contains the lowest levels of EM.

I think you misunderstood my post. This last study was cited by the guy in the nutritionfacts
youtube video to claim skim milk has more estrogen metabolites than whole milk.
But, he forgot to add that free estrogen, which is also called uncojugated
estrogen is high in whole milk and low in skim milk. 2nd study clearly shows
Free estrogen is lowest in skim milk. First study shows that most free estrogens
are in milk fat.

 

[Hasen]

No its not the same study. Your study is from 1979: Measurement of estrogens in cow's milk, human milk, and dairy products. - PubMed - NCBI

The study he is citing is 2009.

Estrogen content seems to be caused by the time the cow was milked, pregnancy etc rather than whether it is merely skimmed.

Also according to the article posted by Giraffe, there are also the concerns about IGF-1 and prolactin which all seem to influence us and our growth. At the end of the day, milk is designed to make a baby animal grow up but all these growth inducing hormones are not good when we have cancerous cells, tumours etc (which most of us probably do even to a small extent. Not to mention that these are not good for us generally besides cancer.

You have to ask yourself what is so good about milk and is it really worth justifying it despite all these possible risks.

 

[Mittir]

I am talking about the third study, that the is exact same study cited by that MD.
That one is from 2009.
Quantitative measurement of endogenous estrogen metabolites, risk-factors for development of breast cancer, in commercial milk products by LC-MS/MS.
Farlow DW1, Xu X, Veenstra TD.
Author information

 

[Hasen]

Too many studies being cited here. Yes the one he cites is this one but you can only see the abstract for free Quantitative measurement of endogenous estrogen metabolites, risk-factors for development of breast cancer, in commercial milk products by LC-MS/MS. - PubMed - NCBI

The conclusion is whole milk has less overall EM and skimmed milk has the lowest unconjugated EM. You also haven't responded to all the other issues with milk highlighted in the study Giraffe posted.

 

[Hasen]

We know estradiol is the most active
estrogen. I do not know how active conjugated estrogen metabolites are,
but first study measured unconjgated (Free) part.

"Previous studies have shown that about 60–80% of estrogens come from milk and dairy products in western diets (75). Although the oral bioactivity of free 17β-estradiol and oestrone may be a bit low, but oestrogen sulphate as a main conjugate in milk, has a relatively high oral bioactivity."

 

[Mittir]

1 ng = 1000 pg

J Acad Nutr Diet. 2012 Jul;112(7):1088-93. doi: 10.1016/j.jand.2012.02.005. Epub 2012 May 5.
Estrone and estrone sulfate concentrations in milk and milk fractions.
Macrina AL1, Ott TL, Roberts RF, Kensinger RS.
Author information

Abstract
Dairy products naturally contain estrogens, and some consumer groups contend these estrogens cause adverse health effects. The objectives of this research were to characterize estrone (E(1)) and estrone sulfate (E(1)S) concentrations in milk from a large number of individual cows, in skim and fat fractions of milk, and in retail milk to provide food and nutrition practitioners with information to estimate potential consumption. Milk was from Holstein cows. Data are presented as means and standard deviations. Analysis of variance was used to determine differences in E(1) and E(1)S content of whole milk and its skim and fat fractions. Mean E(1) and E(1)S concentrations (n=173 cows) were 7.0±12.7 and 46.7±62.1 pg/mL (25.89±46.96 and 172.74±229.71 pmol/L), respectively. Analysis of milk fractions (n=50 samples) demonstrated that 55% of E(1) and 14% of E(1)S were associated with the fat fraction with the remainder associated with the skim fraction. Concentrations of E(1) and E(1)S in pasteurized-homogenized whole milk (n=8) averaged 10.3±0.6 and 85.9±7.3 pg/mL (38.09±2.22 and 317.74±27.00 pmol/L), respectively. Production rates of E(1) plus estradiol in human beings range from 54,000 to 630,000 ng/day. US Food and Drug administration guidelines state that no physiologic effects occur when consumption is ≤1% of the endogenous quantities produced by the segment of the population with the lowest daily production. This threshold value for intake would be 540 ng/day. Estimated total E(1) intake from three servings of whole milk was 68 ng/day, which represents 0.01% to 0.1% of daily production rates in human beings. These findings support levels below the current guidelines for safe consumption.

Dairy Sci. 2007 Jul;90(7):3308-13.
Concentrations of 17beta-estradiol in Holstein whole milk.
Pape-Zambito DA1, Magliaro AL, Kensinger RS.
Author information

Abstract
Some individuals have expressed concern about estrogens in food because of their potential to promote growth of estrogen-sensitive human cancer cells. Researchers have reported concentrations of estrogen in milk but few whole milk samples have been analyzed. Because estrogen associates with the fat phase of milk, the analysis of whole milk is an important consideration. The objectives of this study, therefore, were to quantify 17beta-estradiol (E2) in whole milk from dairy cows and to determine whether E2 concentrations in milk from cows in the second half of pregnancy were greater than that in milk from cows in the first half of pregnancy or in nonpregnant cows. Milk samples and weights were collected during a single morning milking from 206 Holstein cows. Triplicate samples were collected and 2 samples were analyzed for fat, protein, lactose, and somatic cell counts (SCC); 1 sample was homogenized and analyzed for E2. The homogenized whole milk (3 mL) was extracted twice with ethyl acetate and once with methanol. The extract was reconstituted in benzene:methanol (9:1, vol/vol) and run over a Sephadex LH-20 column to separate E2 from cholesterol and estrone before quantification using radioimmunoassay. Cows were classified as not pregnant (NP, n = 138), early pregnant (EP, 1 to 140 d pregnant, n = 47), or midpregnant (MP, 141 to 210 d pregnant, n = 21) at the time of milk sampling based on herd health records. Mean E2 concentration in whole milk was 1.4 +/- 0.2 pg/mL and ranged from nondetectable to 22.9 pg/mL. Milk E2 concentrations averaged 1.3, 0.9, and 3.0 pg/mL for NP, EP, and MP cows, respectively. Milk E2 concentrations for MP cows were greater and differed from those of NP and EP cows. Milk composition was normal for a Holstein herd in that log SCC values and percentages of fat, protein, and lactose averaged 4.9, 3.5, 3.1, and 4.8, respectively. Estradiol concentration was significantly correlated (r = 0.20) with percentage fat in milk. Mean milk yield was 18.9 +/- 0.6 kg for the morning milking. The mean E2 mass accumulated in the morning milk was 23.2 +/- 3.4 ng/cow. Likewise, using the overall mean concentration for E2 in milk, the mean E2 mass in 237 mL (8 fluid ounces) of raw whole milk was 330 pg. The quantity of E2 in whole milk, therefore, is low and is unlikely to pose a health risk for humans

 

[Giraffe]

This article, correct me if I'm wrong, also states that progesterone is low in skimmed milk, not high?

Progesterone is lipophylil (fat-loving). That the amounts of progesterone are lowest in skim milk is exactly what would be expected.

The conclusion is whole milk has less overall EM

Use common sense! How could adding fat back into skimmed milk reduce the amount of estrogens by more than 50% as shown in the video?