Endotoxin Causes (liver) Steatosis, Insulin Resistance And Atherosclerosis

haidut

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I know this study was in hepatitis C patients only, but there is nothing about Hep C that would invalidate this finding in the general population too. Quite a few people on the forum reported that when they tried to talk to their doctor about endotoxin and its possible role in their health problems, the doctors usually laughs and mocks them, saying that endotoxin is only a problem for people in the ER. Well, apparently not so, and I am glad human studies finally start to recognize the role of endotoxin in many chronic conditions. More importantly, this is the first study I have seen that says treating endotoxin overload should be considered clinically.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s15010-018-1185-6
https://www.mdlinx.com/journal-summ...n/2018/08/02/7540136/?spec=nurse-practitioner

"...Chronic hepatitis C patients (CHC) were investigated for the occurrence of endotoxinemia and its effect on inflammation, liver damage, insulin resistance (IR) and atherosclerosis. Researchers observed endotoxinemia in high frequency among these patients. Through increased pro-inflammatory cytokines and oxidative stress, it contributes to the development of hepatic steatosis, IR and atherosclerosis. This suggests the clinical relevance of anti-endotoxin treatment."
 

alywest

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I know this study was in hepatitis C patients only, but there is nothing about Hep C that would invalidate this finding in the general population too. Quite a few people on the forum reported that when they tried to talk to their doctor about endotoxin and its possible role in their health problems, the doctors usually laughs and mocks them, saying that endotoxin is only a problem for people in the ER. Well, apparently not so, and I am glad human studies finally start to recognize the role of endotoxin in many chronic conditions. More importantly, this is the first study I have seen that says treating endotoxin overload should be considered clinically.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s15010-018-1185-6
https://www.mdlinx.com/journal-summ...n/2018/08/02/7540136/?spec=nurse-practitioner

"...Chronic hepatitis C patients (CHC) were investigated for the occurrence of endotoxinemia and its effect on inflammation, liver damage, insulin resistance (IR) and atherosclerosis. Researchers observed endotoxinemia in high frequency among these patients. Through increased pro-inflammatory cytokines and oxidative stress, it contributes to the development of hepatic steatosis, IR and atherosclerosis. This suggests the clinical relevance of anti-endotoxin treatment."
Hi Haidut, I'm sure that you have already discussed this ad nauseum elsewhere on the forum but I can't find it, would you please refer me to the right thread where you discuss the dosage and type of charcoal you use? Many thanks~
 

Vinero

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Tetracycline antibiotics obviously can help in a situation of endotoxin overproduction. Also "overdosing" on magnesium seems to stimulate the bowel, flushing the endotoxin out faster.
 

haidut

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Hi Haidut, I'm sure that you have already discussed this ad nauseum elsewhere on the forum but I can't find it, would you please refer me to the right thread where you discuss the dosage and type of charcoal you use? Many thanks~

I don't think I have said much about doses but Peat told people that in cases of severe/acute endotoxin overload 1tbsp charcoal x 3 daily should take care of it. That is a lot and for everyday situations to keep endotoxin at bay I'd say 5g 2-3 times a week is enough.
 

alywest

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I don't think I have said much about doses but Peat told people that in cases of severe/acute endotoxin overload 1tbsp charcoal x 3 daily should take care of it. That is a lot and for everyday situations to keep endotoxin at bay I'd say 5g 2-3 times a week is enough.
OK thanks, and do you have a preference for the particle or granule size? Do you think it makes a difference?
 

haidut

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OK thanks, and do you have a preference for the particle or granule size? Do you think it makes a difference?

I don't have a preference for granule size. The NOW brand sold in stores seems to work fine for me.
 

sunraiser

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Endotoxin is a RESULT of a congested liver, so is insulin resistance in many cases.

Poorly converted b vitamins, T3, unbound copper and iron due to impaired bile flow are all metabolic challenges due to congested liver with varying physiological outcomes.

Restoring bile flow and mineral status in conjunction with movement resolves this (ie taurine plus robust diet inc zinc/copper). Liver flushing is another less than ideal option.

Endotoxin is a symptom, not a root cause.

Correlation almost never equals causation! It's just a useful way to sell products or promote a specific agenda.
 

haidut

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Endotoxin is a RESULT of a congested liver, so is insulin resistance in many cases.

Poorly converted b vitamins, T3, unbound copper and iron due to impaired bile flow are all metabolic challenges due to congested liver with varying physiological outcomes.

Restoring bile flow and mineral status in conjunction with movement resolves this (ie taurine plus robust diet inc zinc/copper). Liver flushing is another less than ideal option.

Endotoxin is a symptom, not a root cause.

Correlation almost never equals causation! It's just a useful way to sell products or promote a specific agenda.

Compromised gut barrier can cause issues with endotoxin even in people with healthy livers. Drinking alcohol causes massive endotoxin rise in blood even in young and healthy people. Studies have shown that 5-HT3 antagonists resolve/reduce the endotoxin issue to a great degree (by restoring the gut barrier) and ameliorated liver issues without having direct effect on liver (i.e. no 5-HT3 receptors in liver). This shows that endotoxin is also a cause of liver dysfunction, not just a result of it. So, it goes both ways but I agree with your point that people with liver issues will have more trouble with endotoxin clearance.
 

sunraiser

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Compromised gut barrier can cause issues with endotoxin even in people with healthy livers. Drinking alcohol causes massive endotoxin rise in blood even in young and healthy people. Studies have shown that 5-HT3 antagonists resolve/reduce the endotoxin issue to a great degree (by restoring the gut barrier) and ameliorated liver issues without having direct effect on liver (i.e. no 5-HT3 receptors in liver). This shows that endotoxin is also a cause of liver dysfunction, not just a result of it. So, it goes both ways but I agree with your point that people with liver issues will have more trouble with endotoxin clearance.

Compromised gut barrier means you have an unhealthy (or at best overburdened) liver though - foreign proteins in the blood stream will have to be dealt with by the liver and that's going to have a detrimental effect on digestion.

I have come to understand that liver health has very much been a big part of my issues over the years, but they've been consistent with liver function tests both in and out of range.

I don't believe liver tests are actually a good representation of showing whether a liver is healthy with adequate bile flow.

The alcohol thing is interesting, but it could also be in a similar vein - liver busy with alcohol detox therefore digestion severely impaired therefore heavy undigested food/endotoxin burden.
 

Terma

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Have you read much about the phenomenon of "entodoxin tolerance"? That occurs in sepsis? In my opinion is the most interesting complication of endotoxin and have wondered for the last 2 years to which physical ailments it best corresponds - which I don't know. It seems to be a sort of alternative-alternative M2 macrophage activation state.

An Endotoxin Tolerance Signature Predicts Sepsis and Organ Dysfunction at Initial Clinical Presentation
Endotoxin tolerance: new mechanisms, molecules and clinical significance. - PubMed - NCBI
www.jimmunol.org/content/198/3/1006 (gives background, extremely detailed - "Contribution of Akt in endotoxin tolerance")

Like every other dysfunction, medical establishment is only good at recognizing acute forms like fatal sepsis from chemotherapy, so there must be more chronic forms of endotoxin tolerance occurring. There was a proposed one for lupus and such somewhere.
 

Dobbler

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Compromised gut barrier can cause issues with endotoxin even in people with healthy livers. Drinking alcohol causes massive endotoxin rise in blood even in young and healthy people. Studies have shown that 5-HT3 antagonists resolve/reduce the endotoxin issue to a great degree (by restoring the gut barrier) and ameliorated liver issues without having direct effect on liver (i.e. no 5-HT3 receptors in liver). This shows that endotoxin is also a cause of liver dysfunction, not just a result of it. So, it goes both ways but I agree with your point that people with liver issues will have more trouble with endotoxin clearance.
Isnt ginger a strong 5-HT3 antagonist? Its good stuff :D
 

rei

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I hope you are familiar with the research how alcohol cannot cause liver damage unless there are PUFA in diet. So the most common liver's damage mechanism seems to be combined overload of liver's functions, not the toxicity of any one.
 

dfspcc20

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Do I have this right regarding endotoxin? @haidut

- Produced by microbiome in the digestive tract. Having some gut bacteria is probably always inevitable in any real-life circumstance, but it could be made more unfavorable from bad diet, PUFA, hypothyroidism, formula-feeding during infancy, ingestion from food supply (probiotics, fermented foods), infection.

- Intenstinal permability allows more endotoxin to pass into the blood stream. Permability could be a result of hypothyroidism, trauma to the intestine, alcohol and other toxins.

- Poor liver function impedes clearance of endotoxin from the blood. Could be caused by hypothyroidism (seeing a theme here), high-fat diet (esp. PUFA), low usable protein, estrogen, certain substances like those found in grapefruit, alcohol and other toxins.

- Without proper clearance from the blood, we open the door to all the pathologies associated with endotoxin.

- A healthy organism can deal with a certain amount of endotoxin daily, but modern lifestyle affects these mechanisms (as mentioned in the above points), and there is no failsafe once the liver can't clear it.

Feel free to add.
 

haidut

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Isnt ginger a strong 5-HT3 antagonist? Its good stuff :D

Yes, one of the compounds in it (I think gingerol) is. It may have estrogenic effects as well but I think like most roots it is probably safe in moderate doses.
 

haidut

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Do I have this right regarding endotoxin? @haidut

- Produced by microbiome in the digestive tract. Having some gut bacteria is probably always inevitable in any real-life circumstance, but it could be made more unfavorable from bad diet, PUFA, hypothyroidism, formula-feeding during infancy, ingestion from food supply (probiotics, fermented foods), infection.

- Intenstinal permability allows more endotoxin to pass into the blood stream. Permability could be a result of hypothyroidism, trauma to the intestine, alcohol and other toxins.

- Poor liver function impedes clearance of endotoxin from the blood. Could be caused by hypothyroidism (seeing a theme here), high-fat diet (esp. PUFA), low usable protein, estrogen, certain substances like those found in grapefruit, alcohol and other toxins.

- Without proper clearance from the blood, we open the door to all the pathologies associated with endotoxin.

- A healthy organism can deal with a certain amount of endotoxin daily, but modern lifestyle affects these mechanisms (as mentioned in the above points), and there is no failsafe once the liver can't clear it.

Feel free to add.

Yes, that is my understanding as well. Some of these form a vicious loop too so if the endotoxin issue is not addressed it becomes perpetual after some time. For instance the endotoxin burdening the liver, which inhibits ability to process more endotoxin coming from the gut. Endotoxin also increases inflammation and intestinal permeability, which also ends up burdening the liver and creating systemic problems with thyroid and "autoimmunity".
 
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