Discussion: What principles of "Ray Peatism" makes sense most, which ones make sense least?

[youngsinatra]

The thing that resonates with me the best is the emphasis on the mitochondria and getting oxidative phosphorylation running smoothly again, therefore producing plenty of ATP.

The things that resonate least with me is the absolute PUFA / EFA demonization and that melatonin / darkness is bad at night.

 

[Perry Staltic]

re: the high pulse rate thing. I guess if a high pulse rate (in the right circumstances) is an indicator of a vigorous metabolism (which is an indicator of good health) then so be it. But literally EVERYONE I know thinks the very opposite: that a lower pulse rate is better. The high pulse rate thing is just one of Ray’s many unpopular opinions.

I frankly don't understand the concept of high heart rate being good. It has always seemed to me to be a sign of stress or some kind of distress. Running an engine at high RPM will wear it out faster than running it at lower RPM for the same work done. My pulse is typically in the low 50s (55 right now after eating). I've seen it as low as 37. Endurance atheletes typically have low pulse rates because they have strong heart muscles that don't have to work as hard to push blood around. It's very restful.

 

[gaze]

I frankly don't understand the concept of high heart rate being good. It has always seemed to me to be a sign of stress or some kind of distress. Running an engine at high RPM will wear it out faster than running it at lower RPM for the same work done. My pulse is typically in the low 50s (55 right now after eating). I've seen it as low as 37. Endurance atheletes typically have low pulse rates because they have strong heart muscles that don't have to work as hard to push blood around. It's very restful.

there's two different types of slow heart rate. one is a strong heart needed to pump less, the other is a very slow metabolic rate which slows the heart rate down to conserve energy. to me personally, a heart rate at 37 indicates low thyroid/metabolism, the relationship which is already quite confusing

 

[gaze]

It's definitely the Catch-22's that are most confusing, and there are a few of them in "Peatism"! What you advise is where I keep moving back towards - more balance. I think I have heard Ray say in the past that 33/33/33 between the macros might even be the ideal.

TL;DR: Get enough protein and calories, minimise PUFA, choose carbs/fats based on individual metabolic state.

To me it's about trying to increase metabolism incrementally and slowly over time now rather than the kitchen sink approach. The worse the starting point, the slower this likely needs to be. At the same time healing the gut/liver with the same staged approach. Both aspects go hand in hand and can compliment or derail each other if one pedal is pushed too much too soon. Peat would probably advise that on an individual level when he has more context on a person too.

Protein tends to stay pretty constant, say around 120-140g (meats, fish, dairy, bone broth) then it's a case of experimenting with the fats and carbs around that to get best results. The main gauge for me is hand temperature, I know when I've eaten a meal that is better for my current state my hands will be warmer almost immediately, but it's a nice warm not a sweaty/overly energised warmth.

Lately that has meant higher fat than is typical and lower sugar. I've tried the high sugar approach and nothing is more guaranteed to lower temps - I'm just using adrenaline to burn through it, the spacey, jittery feeling attests to that. The more I push it pursuing the high-sugar ideal the deeper the hole I dig, and that then manifests in feelings of lactic acid - lethargy, more aches/pains, very low exercise tolerance etc.

Then the nuance starts to come in around types of fats/carbs. Avoiding PUFA and focussing on saturated fats is standard (in my case, cocoa butter, cream, butter and a bit of tallow work well, coconut oil doesn't). Then we're back to minimising gut issues, so starches for me at the moment are out as they noticeably lower temps and I get the same high sugar symptoms, I suspect endotoxin, which Peat would probably agree with. That leaves me with fruits (at the moment snowball melons, dried apricots, kiwis and small portions of dates), maple syrup, date syrup, some coconut water. Juices are out. A bit of butternut squash and zucchini in soups work well. Mushrooms too. I'm fine with dairy so milk in the form hot chocolate is a nice snack a couple of times a day, Skyr, small portions of ice cream and custard are in there which are the only bits of white sugar I get.

I'll eat a raw carrot daily but don't notice much from it to be honest. I just enjoy crunching on something in the afternoon. I like eggs but I think the whites might cause me some issues (again coldness in hands) so I go through phases with them, I appreciate the importance of the yolks for some vits/mins though so always get them in.

Supplements are mainly out, which again Ray would probably approve of. Some Magnesium and B1 daily and K2 every 2 or 3 days to hit clear deficiencies from diet when looking at cronometer.

So on the perceiving, thinking and acting goes! But I am also trying to be far less focused on it and just tuning into what my body is telling me - I enjoy the forum, but being overly neurotic about this stuff is also a stressor I think. It's tempting to jump on the latest testimonial from someone that went high or low something or other and turned into superman or woman, but we all know in 6 weeks they will probably post with an issue and have done a complete 180.

A big learning recently is making sure I eat enough earlier in the day - typically I've been a big dinner eater, so if I get to dinner and I'm hungry that will spell trouble for digestion when trying to sleep and the knock on effects from there are obvious. A lighter and earlier dinner works better for me and ice cream immediately before sleep definitely doesn't (another Peat paradox perhaps!).

i agree with a lot. i feel like a problem of "peating" in general, or trying to completely revamp how one eats, is we genuinely forget how to eat. as in we lose track of our hunger, our cravings, meal timing, circadian rhythm, eating with friends etc. once eating becomes more like a puzzle that needs to be solved, then things start to go wrong. not that ray intended for this, and to a large degree viewing health as a puzzle to be solved has a lot of benefits because the flip side of eating anything and not caring about nutriton also ends bad. but there has to be a balance between our natural drives and what we think is the rational thing to do

 

[meatbag]

Babies have much higher resting heart rates
Children Have More Energy And Recover Faster Than Elite Endurance Athletes

Heart and hormones
This article gets into some of the thought process behind thinking that a lower heart rate is healthy

"Recently, publications have been claiming that the upper limit of the normal range of heart rates should be lower than 100 beats per minute; this would encourage doctors to prescribe more drugs to slow hearts, but the way the evidence is being presented, invoking the discredited "wear and tear" theory of aging, could have many unexpected harmful consequences. It would reinforce existing misconceptions about heart functions. "

Adrenaline does elevate the heart rate but it doesn't increase the volume of blood being circulated;

"Although Albert Szent-Gyorgyi is known mostly for his discovery of vitamin C and his contribution to understanding the tricarboxylic acid or Krebs cycle, his main interest was in understanding the nature of life itself, and he focused mainly on muscle contraction and cancer growth regulation. In one of his experiments, he compared the effects of estrogen and progesterone on rabbit hearts. A basic property of the heart muscle is that when it beats more frequently, it beats more strongly. This is called the staircase effect, from the way a tracing of its motion rises, beat by beat, as the rate of stimulation is increased. This is a logical way to behave, but sometimes it fails to occur: In shock, and in heart failure, the pulse rate increases, without increasing the volume of blood pumped in each contraction."

"Another standard term describing heart function is chronotropy, referring to the frequency of contraction. Because of the staircase interaction of frequency and force, there has been some confusion in classifying drugs according to chronotropism. In a state of shock or estrogen dominance, an inotropic drug will slow the heart rate by increasing the amount of blood pumped. This relationship caused digitalis' effect to be thought of as primarily slowing the rate of contraction (Willins and Keys, 1941), though its main effect is positively inotropic. It was traditionally used to treat edema, by stimulating diuresis, which is largely the result of its inotropic action. Progesterone and testosterone's inotropic action can also slow the heart beat by strengthening it."

" Measuring the speed of relaxation of the Achilles tendon reflex twitch is a traditional method for judging thyroid function, because in hypothyroidism the relaxation is visibly delayed. This same retardation can be seen in the electrocardiogram, as a prolonged QT interval, which is associated with arrhythmia and sudden death. Insomnia, mania, and asthma are other conditions in which defective relaxation is seen, under the influence of low thyroid function, and an insufficiently opposed influence of estrogen."

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D: So, the common myth that when your muscles hurt it means they are growing bigger and that’s better, I mean the common belief, it’s a myth?

RP: Yeah, well anything that injures your muscle, the lactic acid is probably long gone, but the damage persists and the damage involves the loss of CO2 and that causes the uptake of water swelling and so on and the swelling and the injury does cause the muscle to get bigger, but not healthier.

HD: Another misconception again, athletes, you know we all look at people doing the Olympics - and we just imagine them to be the most supreme fit human beings that there are - and yet actually, they are in a very stressful state doing what they do.

RP: Yeah, there have been studies that found that very well trained athletes typically go around with an elevated lactic acid in their blood, even days after their last exercise. They’ve suppressed their CO2 and become sort of habituated to increased lactic acid which has those long range harmful effects.

-KMUD Herb Doctors - Altitude July 2013

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HD: Does a higher CO2 content actually allow extracellular calcium to move into bone stores?

RP: Yeah, the first bone material laid down is calcium carbonate, even though later it turns to a phosphate compound. In vitro experiments showed, that you can have an acidic condition as long as it's based on CO2 as the acid and have strong bones and the same amount of lactic acid pH, will cause interruption and dissolution of the bones. So it’s the fact that starch tends to produce a shift towards lactic acid rather than CO2.

HD: And this is why you say oxidative exercise like aerobics or jogging is bad for you because the stress that that causes is counter-productive to calcium being laid down?

RP: Yeah, exercise coaches, it's taken about 40 years for science to get to the trainers, but the East Europeans were the first ones to limit the training their athletes did and they won a lot of Olympic medals by under-training.

HD: Because the whole aerobic exercise puts too much stress on the body?

RP: Yeah, the testosterone goes down and the cortisol goes up and you lose tissue and speed and co-ordination.

HD2: So did they do some different type of other exercise for their athletes?

RP: Yeah, cutting the exercise short before the lactic acid rises is enough to poison the right hormones.

HD2: Which, I mean, isn't that long in aerobic exercise is it, it’s like a couple of minutes?

RP: Yeah, a minute or two is enough.

HD2: A minute or two at a high heart rate, then followed by a break to let the heart rate go back down, I mean is that?

RP: Yeah, and to get the lactic acid under control because it turns on the stress hormones that destroy your muscles and nerves and bones.

HD: The other downside of the aerobic exercises that you constantly bring up is that you deplete your own CO2 stores.

RP: Yeah.

HD: By taking too much oxygen. Which is another point: that oxygen is not always the good guy. I know we need it to live, to breathe etc, but it's not the thing we need to be striving for. I think most people that we see, and we look at labs, that most people's CO2 is fairly low.

RP: The typical, well-trained long distance runner has been found to have basically defective lung function, because the chronic elevation of the lactic acid causes a thickening of the air sacs, making the path of oxygen diffusion longer and so it poorly oxygenates the blood.

HD: Is it a type of fibrosis from inflammation or is it a different mechanism?

RP: No, just, I think, water-logging. Lactic acid does lead first to water-logging, inflammation and eventually the fibrosis.
Sugar Myths 2 (2011)

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Effect of exercise on the thyroid; Exercise and Effect on Thyroid Hormone – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)
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"The “slender muscles” of endurance runners are signs of a catabolic state, that has been demonstrated even in the heart muscle. A slow heart beat very strongly suggests hypothyroidism. Hypothyroid people, who are likely to produce lactic acid even at rest, are especially susceptible to the harmful effects of “aerobic” exercise. The good effect some people feel from exercise is probably the result of raising the body temperature; a warm bath will do the same for people with low body temperature.”"

"“During stress, the heart and other working organs became resistant to the glucocorticoid hormones. When a person is given radioactive testosterone, it can be seen to reach the highest concentration in the heart. It is testosterone’s antiglucocorticoid effect which causes it to enlarge skeletal muscles, when exercise is moderate. Its parallel effects on skeletal muscle and heart muscle can be seen in highly adapted (stressed) long-distance runners, since the walls of their hearts become thinner as their skeletal muscle become slimmer.”

“During moderate exercise, adrenalin causes increased blood flow to both the heart and the skeletal muscles, while decreasing the flow of blood to other organs. The increased circulation carries extra oxygen and nutrients to the working organs, while the deprivation of oxygen and glucose pushes the other organs to a catabolic balance. This simple circulatory pattern achieves to some extent the same kind of redistribution of resources, acutely, that is achieved in more prolonged stress by the actions of the glucocorticoids and their antagonists.

There are now many people who argues that a low metabolism rate, a low body temperature and slow heart beat indicate that you live a long time: “your heart can only beat so many times.” Most of these people also advocate “conditioning exercise,” and they point out that trained runners tend to have a slow heart rate. (Incidentally, running elevates adrenaline which caused increased clumping of platelets and accelerated blood clotting. Hypothyroidism–whether preexisting or induced by running–slows the heart rate, raises the production of adrenalin, and is strongly associated with heart disease, as well as with high cholesterol.”
Ray Peat, PhD: Quotes Relating to Exercise – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

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Raymond Pearl was one of the most famous biologists in the country, and his "rate of living" theory of aging was very widely known. According to that theory, an organism has an intrinsic potential to produce a certain total amount of energy during its lifetime, and if it metabolizes at a higher than normal rate, its life span will be proportionately shorter than normal.

There is general agreement that animals on a fat free diet have a very high metabolic rate, but the people who believe the "rate of living" theory will be inclined to see the increased rate of metabolism as something harmful in itself. It is clear that this is what the Burrs thought. They didn't attempt to provide a diet that provided increased amounts of all vitamins and minerals, in proportion to the increased metabolic rate.

Pearl did an experiment, sprouting cantaloupe seeds in a dish with water. The sprouts that grew rapidly died sooner than those that grew more slowly. They died as soon as the nutrients stored in the endosperm had been consumed. Naturally, when nutrients are depleted, growth and metabolism must stop. If food and air and water are rationed, then slow metabolizers are going to live longer. But when nutritional needs are met, the organisms with the highest metabolic rate generally are healthier and live longer. In a study of nurses, those who habitually consumed the most calories lived longer than those who consumed the least. Even while Pearl was promoting his theory, other famous biologists, for example John Northrup in Jacques Loeb's lab at the Rockefeller Institute, were making observations that contradicted the rate of living theory. For example, around 1916, Northrup observed that fruit flies that metabolized at the highest rate lived the longest. Northrup was doing biology, Pearl was doing propaganda, following Weismannism.

The idea of extending life span by slowing metabolism and growth was a logical implication of the "rate of living" theory of aging, and it's an idea that is still popular. Many people have supposed that eating less would slow metabolism. Caloric restriction does extend the life span of many species, but it generally preserves the high metabolic rate of youth, so that at a given age the calorie-restricted animal has a higher rate of oxygen consumption per gram of body weight than the unrestricted eaters."
Unsaturated fatty acids: Nutritionally essential, or toxic?
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In recent years, Weissman’s “wear-and-tear” theory of aging, and Pearl’s “rate of living” theory have been clearly refuted by metabolic studies that are showing that intensified mitochondrial respiration decreases cellular damage, and supports a longer life-span.

Many dog owners are aware that small dogs eat much more food in proportion to their size than big dogs do. And small dogs have a much greater life expectancy than big dogs, in some cases about twice as long (Speakman, 2003).

Organisms as different as yeasts and rodents show a similar association of metabolic intensity and life-span. A variety of hamster with a 20% higher metabolic rate lived 15% longer than hamsters with an average metabolic rate (Oklejewicz and Daan, 2002).

Individuals within a strain of mice were found to vary considerably in their metabolic rate. The 25% of the mice with the highest rate used 30% more energy (per gram of body weight) than the 25% with the lowest metabolic rate, and lived 36% longer (Speakman, et al., 2000).

The mitochondria of these animals are “uncoupled,” that is, their use of oxygen isn’t directly proportional to the production of ATP. This means that they are producing more carbon dioxide without necessarily producing more ATP, and that even at rest they are using a considerable amount of energy.

One important function of carbon dioxide is to regulate the movement of positively charged alkali metal ions, such as sodium and calcium. When too much calcium enters a cell it activates many enzymes, prevents muscle and nerve cells from relaxing, and ultimately kills the cell. The constant formation of acidic carbon dioxide in the cell allows the cell to remove calcium, along with the small amount of sodium which is constantly entering the cell.

When there is adequate sodium in the extracellular fluid, the continuous inward movement of sodium ions into the resting cell activates an enzyme, sodium-potassium ATPase, causing ATP to break down into ADP and phosphate, which stimulates the consumption of fuel and oxygen to maintain an adequate level of ATP. Increasing the concentration of sodium increases the energy consumption and carbon dioxide production of the cell. The sodium, by increasing carbon dioxide production, protects against the excitatory, toxic effects of the intracellular calcium.
Salt, energy, metabolic rate, and longevity
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Your Confidence In Making Decisions Depends On Your Heart Rate​

 

[Perry Staltic]

there's two different types of slow heart rate. one is a strong heart needed to pump less, the other is a very slow metabolic rate which slows the heart rate down to conserve energy. to me personally, a heart rate at 37 indicates low thyroid/metabolism, the relationship which is already quite confusing

Could be low, but I don't seem to have any of the symptoms I've read. 37 was a one-off. It hardly gets into the 40s now.

 

[meatbag]

These are worth browsing through

The Heart 1, KMUD, 2013

The Heart 2, KMUD, 2013

The Heart 3, KMUD, 2013

Generative Energy #22: A Bioenergetic View Of Heart Disease And Stroke (with Haidut)

 

[Sefton10]

i agree with a lot. i feel like a problem of "peating" in general, or trying to completely revamp how one eats, is we genuinely forget how to eat. as in we lose track of our hunger, our cravings, meal timing, circadian rhythm, eating with friends etc. once eating becomes more like a puzzle that needs to be solved, then things start to go wrong. not that ray intended for this, and to a large degree viewing health as a puzzle to be solved has a lot of benefits because the flip side of eating anything and not caring about nutriton also ends bad. but there has to be a balance between our natural drives and what we think is the rational thing to do

Much of that is probably down to the digitisation of life/society that Peat rails against. Nutrition has been gamified to some extent whereby everything can be monitored/tracked to the nth degree, targets to hit, numbers to meet 24/7. Plus the sheer accessibility of information and opinion (much of which is diametrically opposed) now through The Internet and social media makes the puzzle ever more complex and harder to work out.

This wouldn’t really have been possible even 25 years ago and you’d have to think we were wiser and much more in tune with our natural instincts as a result. Maybe someone might get hold of a diet book like an Atkins, but they’d have to search it out. Now diet culture is endemic. I never once heard my grandparents talk about macronutrient ratios, going carnivore or how many mg of niacinamide they should have with each meal.

 

[gaze]

Much of that is probably down to the digitisation of life/society that Peat rails against. Nutrition has been gamified to some extent whereby everything can be monitored/tracked to the nth degree, targets to hit, numbers to meet 24/7. Plus the sheer accessibility of information and opinion (much of which is diametrically opposed) now through The Internet and social media makes the puzzle ever more complex and harder to work out.

This wouldn’t really have been possible even 25 years ago and you’d have to think we were wiser and much more in tune with our natural instincts as a result. Maybe someone might get hold of a diet book like an Atkins, but they’d have to search it out. Now diet culture is endemic. I never once heard my grandparents talk about macronutrient ratios, going carnivore or how many mg of niacinamide they should have with each meal.

same with my grandparents and parents tbh. the problem is were in such a trashed environment, with added iron, pufas, gums, carrageenan, that we kind of have to do research. But you are 100% right with the information overload diluting whats true and whats not. I certainly did not think added iron, pufa, gums were bad until I was lucky enough to come across Rays work, but 99% people alive have not come about Rays ideas, so we're in a world of people who want to eat healthier, but the idea of health is so messed up that everyone goes down a path upon which they either go down the rabbit hole and eventually come to certain truths, or they give up and eat anything. Also not to mention the majority of humans who've been on earth have been under the assumption that physical and mental degernation is genetic. Rays work is really quite radical, and once the idea of hope that any and every medical condition can be "cured", it's hard to go back to dietary and lifestyle innocence. at the same time though, stress is the cause of pretty much every problem, so stressing about the diet is opposed to what ray is trying to achieve. another catch-22. but you're right the information overload also makes things way worse.

 

[TheBeard]

I see where the confusion lies.

To clarify, the mechanism behind "Peat fatloss" I understand. It's practicality and effectiveness as a blanket approach for all age, weight, health categories is debatable, causes confusion, and has led a lot of people in this community to gain excessive fat over the years.

I'm not even talking about a Peat diet.

But glad to know your confusion has now dissipated.

 

[ursidae]

Even if it’s not explicitly stated, the principle of low fibre, high protein, low iron, low pufa, high calcium inevitably translates to having dairy as a staple. And if no form of it is well tolerated as it’s usually the case, the person is imperfect rather than the food, therefore no alternatives to milk are given. Solutions (low success rate) include obliterating your micro biome with antibiotics and taking thyroid as if one can outwit their body. As I understand, the body never seeks to harm itself, rather it seeks to establish balance, there must be a reason for it to be slowed down and that reason should be self preservation

 

[5a-DHP]

I'm not sure if you could even call it one of his 'principles', but Progesterone from a male perspective is the most confusing neurosteroid/hormone for me to understand

Ray is very clear that, for the most part, men should not take progesterone due to its feminizing effects.
Even moderate doses of prog will suppress LH which reduces absolute testosterone output, whilst simultaneously antagonizing its action at the androgen receptor.
Not something to take if there isn't overt deficiency or alongside the use of exogenous androgens (actual androgens - not DHEA, which itself has anti-androgenic effects if the dose is high enough and/or serum levels aren't deficient when supplementing).

 

[5a-DHP]

As I understand, the body never seeks to harm itself, rather it seeks to establish balance, there must be a reason for it to be slowed down and that reason should be self preservation

Energetically-suppressing adaptations to stress will often remain long after the stressor has been abolished - basic Selye general adaptation syndrome.
Exogenous hormones - particularly thyroid - are often needed to reverse the adaption; being hypothyroid doesn't inherently mean there's an underlying issue that's 'blocking' optimal thyroid function.

 

[ursidae]

Energetically-suppressing adaptations to stress will often remain long after the stressor has been abolished - basic Selye general adaptation syndrome.
Exogenous hormones - particularly thyroid - are often needed to reverse the adaption; being hypothyroid doesn't inherently mean there's an underlying issue that's 'blocking' optimal thyroid function.

Shouldn’t it take shorter than years of being dependent on medication to reverse the adaptation?

 

[Gustav3Y]

I never took Progesterone.
But I personally took Pansterone (Preg + DHEA) and even in low-doses, I could feel the Preg. converting to Prog. and having an anti-androgenic effect. Suffice to know I'm never touching Progesterone.

What makes you believe the Pregnenolone converted to Progesterone and having anti-androgenic effects on you?
If you take DHEA alone you can almost surely feel estrogenic effects, me and many other felt this from DHEA.

On the other hand some people have reported estrogenic effects from Pregnenolone, including me but it was only from one source while DHEA had this effect for me from any source.

 

[TheBeard]

Even if it’s not explicitly stated, the principle of low fibre, high protein, low iron, low pufa, high calcium inevitably translates to having dairy as a staple. And if no form of it is well tolerated as it’s usually the case, the person is imperfect rather than the food, therefore no alternatives to milk are given. Solutions (low success rate) include obliterating your micro biome with antibiotics and taking thyroid as if one can outwit their body. As I understand, the body never seeks to harm itself, rather it seeks to establish balance, there must be a reason for it to be slowed down and that reason should be self preservation

Nature is never wrong only when nature can operate freely.
The body always seeks to balance itself out in the right direction when given the perfect unaltered conditions that were around a few centuries ago.

Not anymore: pollutants, EDC, radiations, poor nutrient profile foods...

We now need to assist the body in every step to circumvent the external aggressors and stressors.
That's why Peat's work even exist.
Otherwise we'd all be eating raw meat and raw milk and be fine.

No, today you need supplements, hormones, you need to use every tool that the brain can come up with.

Back a millenium ago, people could listen to their body and follow what it suggested.
Today, your body's signals have been obliterated and are most of the time wrong.

 

[Gustav3Y]

No, today you need supplements, hormones, you need to use every tool that the brain can come up with.

Yeah it is indeed a counterbalance battle with the many issues humanity has created at the same time when solving others (e.g. massive crops due to pesticide use)

 

[Jem Oz]

What I like least: people putting temp/pulse measurements above how they actually FEEL. It’s outsourcing. Not trusting yourself. It can also make you needlessly anxious, obsessive, and ironically lower your metabolism if you relentlessly track it. I feel like temp/pulse became a kind of holy grail, but it should be: pay attention to yourself. Check in with how you actually feel several times a day and track those changes. It’s a lot more empowering than sticking an unreliable device under your arm and praying you hit the magic number that apparently says: “health!”

 

[GreekDemiGod]

Check in with how you actually feel several times a day and track those changes

Whenever I am in those feel good moments, it always correlates with high temperatures, no exceptions.

 

[meatbag]

Ray is very clear that, for the most part, men should not take progesterone due to its feminizing effects.
Even moderate doses of prog will suppress LH which reduces absolute testosterone output, whilst simultaneously antagonizing its action at the androgen receptor.
Not something to take if there isn't overt deficiency or alongside the use of exogenous androgens (actual androgens - not DHEA, which itself has anti-androgenic effects if the dose is high enough and/or serum levels aren't deficient when supplementing).

In an interview he said he knew a male who was an ex-alcoholic who took around a tablespoon a day for his whole life after he recommended it
Oral Progesterone Increases Testosterone And DHT