Discussion: What principles of "Ray Peatism" makes sense most, which ones make sense least?

[Tabrid]

Title self explanatory. I think his emphasis on importance of carbs and saturated fats on hormonal and metabolic health makes sense most. (Dangers of seretonin is another sound topic) Orange juice (histamine liberator, possibly irritant) and overlooking the "possible" problems with dairy is the one that satisfies my mind the least. What are your toughts on Ray Peat's ideas, "principles"? What principles of "Ray Peatism" makes sense most, which ones make sense least to you guys?

 

[Grischbal]

This little hedonistic aspect of energy and reaching for a higher energy state.
An aspect I learned to love especially coming from a household where they buy the latest fancy technology but somehow have a very frugal grip on diet and nutrition, sometimes I am being shamed for drinking alot of milk not neccessarily because it "would make me fat" but because they see it as being wasteful. I am happy that I am escaping this way of completly irrational thinking

 

[laleto12]

Over importance on dairy.
The thing is I absolutely love dairy but it literally makes me depressed so much, after dropping it quite a few times, I’ve realized this pattern.
But without dairy I struggle with getting calcium so Im lost on that.

(Eggshells might be causing anti-acid effect on stomach acid, not sure.)

 

[Tabrid]

@Grischbal Yes. Not fighting the instinct to eat properly and breaking the diet delusions are absolutely nice.

@laleto12 Do you also go in a zoned out, heavy headed mood when taking dairy?

 

[Peater]

Dairy for me too. In particular generic cow's milk. At least paleo emphasised the better forms. I eat cheese and cream but i don't drink generic store milk. Sometimes i can get inhomogeneous full fat Jersey milk but it's a treat not a staple

 

[Charger]

I haven't read a lot of Ray's work, so I can't say how much he actually promotes it, but I've heard it recommended by his followers enough to assume it's something he emphasizes as beneficial. I've heard him recommend it here and there in some of Roddy's podcasts for various reasons.

I'm not sure if you could even call it one of his 'principles', but Progesterone from a male perspective is the most confusing neurosteroid/hormone for me to understand. Some users here such as @SonOfEurope almost literally bathe in the stuff and claim to be fine, whereas @Hans has never encouraged more than small doses of 1-3mg in males. Trying to replicate the dosages SonOfEurope was using was rapidly feminizing in my case and also feels very similar to Finasteride in high doses, yet @haidut claims it doesn't inhibit 5AR.

What I want to understand is what elevated Progesterone in bloodwork would imply for a male? What lowers Progesterone or 'uses it up'? What would be the most effective option for doing so? What determines whether or not it's feminizing in one male to another? Progesterone is weird, bruh.

 

[TheBeard]

Ray's work cannot be isolated into components that we like or not.
It works because it forms a coherent energetic machinery with all the different components.

Following an average western diet but gorgeing on gummies and regular coke? Won't work.

Heavily exercising and taking T3? Won't work.

Diet full of starch and fiber and adding milk on top? Won't work.

With Ray Peat it's complex, you either follow all the recommendations, or none.

 

[S-VV]

Ray's work cannot be isolated into components that we like or not.
It works because it forms a coherent energetic machinery with all the different components.

Following an average western diet but gorgeing on gummies and regular coke? Won't work.

Heavily exercising and taking T3? Won't work.

Diet full of starch and fiber and adding milk on top? Won't work.

With Ray Peat it's complex, you either follow all the recommendations, or none.

This

 

[YourUniverse]

Ray's work cannot be isolated into components that we like or not.
It works because it forms a coherent energetic machinery with all the different components.

Following an average western diet but gorgeing on gummies and regular coke? Won't work.

Heavily exercising and taking T3? Won't work.

Diet full of starch and fiber and adding milk on top? Won't work.

With Ray Peat it's complex, you either follow all the recommendations, or none.

Meh. If a person just switches from PUFA to coconut oil and butter and changes nothing else im sure their health will improve, at least long term

 

[Tabrid]

@Charger Absolutely agree. Idea of using exogenous hormones disturbs me, especially if they're associated with femininity.

@TheBeard I don't agree, this is absolutism. Even though some of the aspects are dependant on eachother, some are fruitful on their own just as @jamies33 said. Elimination of PUFA, reducing endurance exercise, increasing carbs, caring about Ca:P ratio, fat soluable vitamins, reducing soluable fiber etc are definitely better when combined but they also help alone by themselves. I believe Peating is way more interpretable and flexible than you think. Some peaters don't eat dairy, some are plant based, some (me) would never use exogenous hormones, some are even trying to make Peating work with a low carb diet.

 

[Charger]

I'm biased, but if I were to encourage anyone to employ any Peat related hormones or supplements, it would probably come down to thyroid/t3 or thiamine. I think most people can benefit from one or both of these and their effects are very powerful on mood and energy in my experience.

 

[YourUniverse]

I'm biased, but if I were to encourage anyone to employ any Peat related hormones or supplements, it would probably come down to thyroid/t3 or thiamine. I think most people can benefit from one or both of these and their effects are very powerful on mood and energy in my experience.

vitamin E

 

[gaze]

what makes the least amount of sense to me is the relationship between metabolic rate and thyroid. it's possible to have a high metabolic rate with low thyroid, as ray himself had to eat 5000 calories a day until he supplemented thyroid and his requirement went down to 2500 or less. however it's also possible to have a very low metabolic rate, i.e heart rate of 60s, and still have high T3 and t4 on blood tests. yet ray says eating to increase the metabolic rate is a good thing, which is why he reccomends high sugar, low pufa, etc. but if your burning off the sugar using adrenaline rather than thyroid efficiently than it's not a good thing. "uncoupling" is a good thing according to ray but an inefficient metabolism with low thyroid is one of the worst states to be in, because it's a condition of high lactic acid and adrenaline.

 

[Hans]

what makes the least amount of sense to me is the relationship between metabolic rate and thyroid. it's possible to have a high metabolic rate with low thyroid, as ray himself had to eat 5000 calories a day until he supplemented thyroid and his requirement went down to 2500 or less. however it's also possible to have a very low metabolic rate, i.e heart rate of 60s, and still have high T3 and t4 on blood tests. yet ray says eating to increase the metabolic rate is a good thing, which is why he reccomends high sugar, low pufa, etc. but if your burning off the sugar using adrenaline rather than thyroid efficiently than it's not a good thing. "uncoupling" is a good thing according to ray but an inefficient metabolism with low thyroid is one of the worst states to be in, because it's a condition of high lactic acid and adrenaline.

Peat did mention that his theory as to why his metabolism was so fast, was because he was hypothyroid. Low thyroid hormones caused insufficient magnesium retention in the cell, thus there was more intracellular calcium. Intracellular calcium stimulates wasteful energy production so he burned off a lot of calories. Once he used thyroid, he retained magnesium better and the overstimulation (and excess uncoupling) was reduced.

 

[yerrag]

I like most the idea that we can never have too much energy from having good metabolism as it is used on development. Developing the brain foremost, and then our outward physical attributes such as skin and hair, and our virility. In terms of personality, I think he will be very easy to get along with, given the high dopamine and the low serotonin.

What I don't like the most is the use of the simplistic metric of heart rate as a measure of metabolism, to the point of equating high heart rate to intelligence. Certainly all things being equal, I would agree that a higher heart rate would confer more intelligence. But really, if you put a good sampling of people together and measure their heart rate, you can hardly get any validation of that idea. For how can a guy with tachycardia, understood to have a high heart rate exceedng 100 bpm be smarter than a guy with no tachycardia when his heart rate is high because he has a problem with his heart pumping efficiently?

But you get the idea. I can make the same argument with a guy with a heart rate of 99 (barely passing before you call him tachycardic) or a guy with a heart rate of 89, and another with 79. They may all have very inefficient hearts that do not pump efficiently and require a higher heart rate to compensate for their inefficient hearts.

Instead, Ray should update his metric as there are better metrics these days. Heart rate is a metric used before because in earlier days it's hard to get better metrics because they are troublesome to compute. As recent as fifty years ago, engineers were using slide rules because there were no handheld calculators. People were using rules of thumb to approximate measurements. Nowadays engineers don't use slid rules anymore, People rely a lot less on rules of thumb because computing power is so cheap and powerful.

Herbal doctors, Chinese and Western, feel patients' wrists and get a measure of their health from the strength, rate, and regularity of their pulse. It's not just the heart rate they depend on. But there is a metric that can be used to quantify the strength of the pulse. It is called the perfusion index. It's now available in newer oximeters that cost around $20. It computes the ratio of the pulsatile flow of blood over the non-pulsatile flow of blood, and the range of value given is from 0-20%. The higher it goes, the better, as it can be equated to a stronger pulse. A stronger pulse easily equates to the lusitropic quality of the heartbeat, which is the strength of it. And the higher the strength, the more efficient the heart is in pumping blood.

I used to become happy to see my heart rate go to 85 from my regular 68, and I thought "Gee, I am getting better. My metabolism is going up. Wow!" Not anymore, I am satisfied with the 68 given that it is very difficult to really change your regular heart rate. Not that it's impossible. It's just difficult. Only because the body has to find the rate that suits your level of health. And that level is hard to change if you don't know what you're doing. And most of us, including me, don't.

Instead, I look at the Perfusion Index or PI for short, and see how high it can get. And I also look at the graph called a plethysmograph, to see how the wave looks like and to see if it has a regular pattern to it. And the shape of the curve tells a story as well, about how healthy my heart is .

Maybe Ray is content using heart rate as the metric as it is easier to understand for most people. At best, though, it is just a rule of thumb.

Here is the one I'm using:
Amazon product ASIN B083JT4S8V

 

[TripleOG]

Weight loss definitely up there with making the least sense, as I've noticed most haven't gotten in great shape without implementing some traditional (drug free) bodybuilding methods.

 

[TheBeard]

Weight loss definitely up there with making the least sense, as I've noticed most haven't gotten in great shape without implementing some traditional (drug free) bodybuilding methods.

Nobody recommended losing muscle mass to lose weight.
Weight loss should come as a natural consequence of PUFA stores depletion.
Muscle mass is a critical parameter of being healthy, Georgi reiterates this in every single discussion he has with Danny.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

I'm not sure if you could even call it one of his 'principles', but Progesterone from a male perspective is the most confusing neurosteroid/hormone for me to understand. Some users here such as @SonOfEurope almost literally bathe in the stuff and claim to be fine, whereas @Hans has never encouraged more than small doses of 1-3mg in males. Trying to replicate the dosages SonOfEurope was using was rapidly feminizing in my case and also feels very similar to Finasteride in high doses, yet @haidut claims it doesn't inhibit 5AR.

I never took Progesterone.
But I personally took Pansterone (Preg + DHEA) and even in low-doses, I could feel the Preg. converting to Prog. and having an anti-androgenic effect. Suffice to know I'm never touching Progesterone.

 

[hei]

Nobody recommended losing muscle mass to lose weight.
Weight loss should come as a natural consequence of PUFA stores depletion.
Muscle mass is a critical parameter of being healthy, Georgi reiterates this in every single discussion he has with Danny.

How can you have PUFA depletion without fat loss? How would you ever know if pufa is being depleted at all when there’s no way to measure it?
My body immediately sheds muscle when I try to lose weight so it’s a mystery to me that some people are able to choose their body composition.

 

[Sefton10]

yet ray says eating to increase the metabolic rate is a good thing, which is why he reccomends high sugar, low pufa, etc. but if your burning off the sugar using adrenaline rather than thyroid efficiently than it's not a good thing. "uncoupling" is a good thing according to ray but an inefficient metabolism with low thyroid is one of the worst states to be in, because it's a condition of high lactic acid and adrenaline.

This is one of the things I struggle with most. It feels like the Peat approach of high sugar (which makes complete sense the way cellular function is explained) is ideal once the metabolism is already well-functioning, but high sugar is likely not the way to improve a severely inefficient metabolism. That’s when many people end up in trouble when we keep forcing the high sugar and classic Peat foods when still deep in that adrenaline/lactic acid state (e.g., the more sugar I eat the colder my hands get and the more adrenalised I feel). Plus we pile coffee/caffeine and a laundry list worth of supplements on top of that.

The question then becomes how to get out of that state first to then start adding more sugar etc., and that’s when things get highly individualised and is where Peat’s philosophy of experimentation and “perceive, think, act” IS key.