Dht increases visceral fat in man??

[GorillaHead]

What yall make of this study. This is very interesting. Seems to me optimal profile is high T medium to Low DHT

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[Riesensackteil]

Shortly skimmed over it
At what dosage and how was it applied? They did not even mention way of application in previous groups
They mentioned that it caused a reduction of "T levels" which might either hint at suppression overall or DHT curbing adrenal androgens. They mentioned "in spite of a four-fold rise in plasma DHT concentration", which could hint that the treatment was not really successfull because DHT is a paracrine hormone and should barely be detectable in plasma.

 

[Hans]

What yall make of this study. This is very interesting. Seems to me optimal profile is high T medium to Low DHT

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onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Plasma steroids, body composition, and fat distribution: effects of age, sex, and exercise training - International Journal of Obesity

Plasma steroid hormone levels vary between men and women, but their associations with BMI and adiposity are controversial. Furthermore, little is known about the role of exercise programs on the relationship between steroid hormones and adiposity. This report evaluates these relationships for...

www.nature.com

"In men, low DHT, OHPROG, SHBG, and TESTO were associated with higher adiposity and abdominal and visceral fat."

This study showed that 125mg DHT daily for 2 months increased visceral fat by 0.5kg. They extended the study to 9 months and found no additional increase in visceral fat.
Testosterone dropped to the hypogonadal range, where estradiol didn't change significantly. What most likely happened was a drop in DHEA, preg and prog levels, which could also contribute to problems. But yeah, 125mg DHT daily is overkill by far. There would most likely not have been an increase in visceral fat if the dose was like 5mg daily.

 

[GorillaHead]

Plasma steroids, body composition, and fat distribution: effects of age, sex, and exercise training - International Journal of Obesity

Plasma steroid hormone levels vary between men and women, but their associations with BMI and adiposity are controversial. Furthermore, little is known about the role of exercise programs on the relationship between steroid hormones and adiposity. This report evaluates these relationships for...

www.nature.com

"In men, low DHT, OHPROG, SHBG, and TESTO were associated with higher adiposity and abdominal and visceral fat."

This study showed that 125mg DHT daily for 2 months increased visceral fat by 0.5kg. They extended the study to 9 months and found no additional increase in visceral fat.
Testosterone dropped to the hypogonadal range, where estradiol didn't change significantly. What most likely happened was a drop in DHEA, preg and prog levels, which could also contribute to problems. But yeah, 125mg DHT daily is overkill by far. There would most likely not have been an increase in visceral fat if the dose was like 5mg daily.

Very interesting

Shortly skimmed over it
At what dosage and how was it applied? They did not even mention way of application in previous groups
They mentioned that it caused a reduction of "T levels" which might either hint at suppression overall or DHT curbing adrenal androgens. They mentioned "in spite of a four-fold rise in plasma DHT concentration", which could hint that the treatment was not really successfull because DHT is a paracrine hormone and should barely be detectable in plasma.

What you mean barely. Everyone has levels of dht in serum? What am i missing here?

 

[Broken man]

Haidut posted study with women that found only DHT is inversely correlated with bodyfat.
Estrogens cause obesity / PCOS in women, DHT is protective – To Extract Knowledge from Matter
I also dont understand studies what are showing DHT leading to increasing visceral fat because most bodybuilders use DHT compounds for fat loss and cutting.

 

[pauljacob]

Plasma steroids, body composition, and fat distribution: effects of age, sex, and exercise training - International Journal of Obesity

Plasma steroid hormone levels vary between men and women, but their associations with BMI and adiposity are controversial. Furthermore, little is known about the role of exercise programs on the relationship between steroid hormones and adiposity. This report evaluates these relationships for...

www.nature.com

"In men, low DHT, OHPROG, SHBG, and TESTO were associated with higher adiposity and abdominal and visceral fat."

This study showed that 125mg DHT daily for 2 months increased visceral fat by 0.5kg. They extended the study to 9 months and found no additional increase in visceral fat.
Testosterone dropped to the hypogonadal range, where estradiol didn't change significantly. What most likely happened was a drop in DHEA, preg and prog levels, which could also contribute to problems. But yeah, 125mg DHT daily is overkill by far. There would most likely not have been an increase in visceral fat if the dose was like 5mg daily.

Thank you Hans. So it seems that by using such an "overkill dose" of DHT, they deliberately created hormonal imbalances that led to increase in belly fat, just to increase the readership of their "study".

 

[Riesensackteil]

Very interesting


What you mean barely. Everyone has levels of dht in serum? What am i missing here?

It is similar to Estrogens, levels in plasma/blood is not very insightful because it does not say much about tissue saturation

 

[Hans]

Thank you Hans. So it seems that by using such an "overkill dose" of DHT, they deliberately created hormonal imbalances that led to increase in belly fat, just to increase the readership of their "study".

Yes exactly. But even at that dose, visceral fat didn't go up from 2 months to 9 months, so that gain seems to be limited a lot. It's not like it keeps on accumulating. Visceral fat correlated with insulin resistance and excess cortisol and DHT has been shown to improve insulin sensitivity.
But regardless, causing such an imbalance in someones hormones aren't a good idea imo.

 

[PurpleHeart]

DHT is by definition a stress hormone since its production is increased, and its co-factor enzymes upregulated in times of stress, so no matter what anyone here believes DHT belongs in the stress hormone category.

High DHT/T ratio is a hallmark of disease, but for some reason many people on this forum defend the absurd position of "The more the better" when it comes to DHT.

Some even go as far as "supplementing" DHT, to improve wellbeing.

Also many people claim that DHT "blocks" estrogen, whatever that means, but studies show mixed and complex interactions.

I don't even know why DHT is being worshipped in this forum, as far as I am concerned Dr Peat never gave it much attention, if any.

DHT seems like a potent substance that can help restore equilibrium during stress but constant high levels are probably a sign of excessive upregulation which is probably not a good sign.

If DHT was the superman hormone that some people here claim it is then people would have found out by now and abuse the ***t out of it.

 

[opethfeldt]

DHT is by definition a stress hormone since its production is increased, and its co-factor enzymes upregulated in times of stress, so no matter what anyone here believes DHT belongs in the stress hormone category.

High DHT/T ratio is a hallmark of disease, but for some reason many people on this forum defend the absurd position of "The more the better" when it comes to DHT.

Some even go as far as "supplementing" DHT, to improve wellbeing.

Also many people claim that DHT "blocks" estrogen, whatever that means, but studies show mixed and complex interactions.

I don't even know why DHT is being worshipped in this forum, as far as I am concerned Dr Peat never gave it much attention, if any.

DHT seems like a potent substance that can help restore equilibrium during stress but constant high levels are probably a sign of excessive upregulation which is probably not a good sign.

If DHT was the superman hormone that some people here claim it is then people would have found out by now and abuse the ***t out of it.

The difference between other stress hormones and DHT is that DHT rises to protect from increased stress. It doesn't induce catabolism or other problems the way estrogen and cortisol do. Ideally, you'd want to have as much DHT as possible without triggering a stress response. It has been shown proper thyroid hormone levels promote DHT without needing to be stressed. The stress induced increase is what we want to avoid, in addition to a lowering of testosterone in favor of DHT. Both DHT and testosterone are important for good health.

As for the visceral fat correlation, 125mg of DHT is so supraphysiological as to be useless in practical applications. If you take that much T daily, you'd have major problems as well, from estrogen conversion. In normal physiological amounts, I've noticed nothing but positive benefits from DHT.

 

[TheBeard]

The difference between other stress hormones and DHT is that DHT rises to protect from increased stress. It doesn't induce catabolism or other problems the way estrogen and cortisol do. Ideally, you'd want to have as much DHT as possible without triggering a stress response. It has been shown proper thyroid hormone levels promote DHT without needing to be stressed. The stress induced increase is what we want to avoid, in addition to a lowering of testosterone in favor of DHT. Both DHT and testosterone are important for good health.

As for the visceral fat correlation, 125mg of DHT is so supraphysiological as to be useless in practical applications. If you take that much T daily, you'd have major problems as well, from estrogen conversion. In normal physiological amounts, I've noticed nothing but positive benefits from DHT.

Exactly, that's how it works.

 

[Beastmode]

The only time I've head Peat mention dht as something to possibly use was in an interview about T and DHT supplementation. His response was that both can be good if used with good thyroid function, low stress, good diet, etc. He said if it's used, like T, in a constructive manner it can do great things.

 

[GorillaHead]

Cortisol really up-regulates 5AR?

Ive read that prolactin can upregulate and downregulate 5ar

 

[rei]

DHT is by definition a stress hormone since its production is increased, and its co-factor enzymes upregulated in times of stress, so no matter what anyone here believes DHT belongs in the stress hormone category.

High DHT/T ratio is a hallmark of disease, but for some reason many people on this forum defend the absurd position of "The more the better" when it comes to DHT.

Some even go as far as "supplementing" DHT, to improve wellbeing.

Also many people claim that DHT "blocks" estrogen, whatever that means, but studies show mixed and complex interactions.

I don't even know why DHT is being worshipped in this forum, as far as I am concerned Dr Peat never gave it much attention, if any.

DHT seems like a potent substance that can help restore equilibrium during stress but constant high levels are probably a sign of excessive upregulation which is probably not a good sign.

If DHT was the superman hormone that some people here claim it is then people would have found out by now and abuse the ***t out of it.

quite a lot of imaginary arguments you construct.

Think of DHT like this: when a tissue is stressed it can either respond by fighting it (dht) or adapting to it (progesterone), or start stress processes (estrogen). Example with fascia: dht makes your fascia keep tight and strong to meet forces, progesterone makes them yield and stretch, while estrogen makes them build secondary structures like adhesions, fibrotic changes that passively resist forces and serve as a baseline to start rebuild once energetic balance returns.

Too much DHT will deplete your energy reserves and **** you up, as normally the T would go to estrogen and not DHT when your energy reserves are so low to not support the extra drain of DHT. This is why DHT can cause baldness, when the skin is unable to support the elevated hair metabolism caused by DHT the hair follicle minituarizes, even when without the DHT it could have survived as a bit less thick and less fast growing follicle. But due to constant excessive fascial tension the scalp needs elevated DHT to stay functional. When this starts to fail, when estrogen starts to take over, you get cannonball shiny head. And probably at this point you start to get neck,shoulder and postural problems as the fascia becomes dysfunctional.

 

[PurpleHeart]

quite a lot of imaginary arguments you construct.

Think of DHT like this: when a tissue is stressed it can either respond by fighting it (dht) or adapting to it (progesterone), or start stress processes (estrogen). Example with fascia: dht makes your fascia keep tight and strong to meet forces, progesterone makes them yield and stretch, while estrogen makes them build secondary structures like adhesions, fibrotic changes that passively resist forces and serve as a baseline to start rebuild once energetic balance returns.

Too much DHT will deplete your energy reserves and **** you up, as normally the T would go to estrogen and not DHT when your energy reserves are so low to not support the extra drain of DHT. This is why DHT can cause baldness, when the skin is unable to support the elevated hair metabolism caused by DHT the hair follicle minituarizes, even when without the DHT it could have survived as a bit less thick and less fast growing follicle. But due to constant excessive fascial tension the scalp needs elevated DHT to stay functional. When this starts to fail, when estrogen starts to take over, you get cannonball shiny head. And probably at this point you start to get neck,shoulder and postural problems as the fascia becomes dysfunctional.

You claim that I construct imaginary scenarios which I don't by the way, and then you proceed to present your asspull theories as a fact without providing any evidence.

 

[TheReds]

quite a lot of imaginary arguments you construct.

Think of DHT like this: when a tissue is stressed it can either respond by fighting it (dht) or adapting to it (progesterone), or start stress processes (estrogen). Example with fascia: dht makes your fascia keep tight and strong to meet forces, progesterone makes them yield and stretch, while estrogen makes them build secondary structures like adhesions, fibrotic changes that passively resist forces and serve as a baseline to start rebuild once energetic balance returns.

Too much DHT will deplete your energy reserves and **** you up, as normally the T would go to estrogen and not DHT when your energy reserves are so low to not support the extra drain of DHT. This is why DHT can cause baldness, when the skin is unable to support the elevated hair metabolism caused by DHT the hair follicle minituarizes, even when without the DHT it could have survived as a bit less thick and less fast growing follicle. But due to constant excessive fascial tension the scalp needs elevated DHT to stay functional. When this starts to fail, when estrogen starts to take over, you get cannonball shiny head. And probably at this point you start to get neck,shoulder and postural problems as the fascia becomes dysfunctional.

Oh ***t, thats something new! Do you have any links and studies regards the neck shoulder problems from fascia?

 

[rei]

You claim that I construct imaginary scenarios which I don't by the way, and then you proceed to present your asspull theories as a fact without providing any evidence.

i don't have to since neither did you!

And anyhow, just take a look at the health of the modern man compared to someone from decades ago, and go ask yourself do you want to use faulty modern science as a basis for your world view, or basic logic and sanity? Trust your doctor, and you can feel like 60 at end of puberty!

Oh ***t, thats something new! Do you have any links and studies regards the neck shoulder problems from fascia?

sorry, no that was the mostly speculative part of the comment.

 

[PurpleHeart]

i don't have to since neither did you!

And anyhow, just take a look at the health of the modern man compared to someone from decades ago, and go ask yourself do you want to use faulty modern science as a basis for your world view, or basic logic and sanity? Trust your doctor, and you can feel like 60 at end of puberty!

I don't trust doctors everything I said is just observation, do you even read my posts.

 

[rei]

I don't trust doctors everything I said is just observation, do you even read my posts.

you ask for evidence to counter your observations? Which are faulty in the first place because i challenge you to find one instance where people here said

"but for some reason many people on this forum defend the absurd position of "The more the better" when it comes to DHT."

 

[PurpleHeart]

you ask for evidence to counter your observations? Which are faulty in the first place because i challenge you to find one instance where people here said

You can literally type "DHT" in the search bar lol, you are a clown.