Depression And Fatigue

[Suikerbuik]

Well yeah, our senses are made to avoid the ***t. I do think this is justified, but is it because of the bacteria or because of toxins that are eliminated?? Bacteria itself are odorless.

Sure you don't want to stress yourself with other person's toxins, their (death) cells (maybe even cancerous cells?) and what not. But maybe the bacteria itself, when screened? I don't think it's as crazy or ridiculous as you suggest..

 

[Amazoniac]

It's ok to laugh. People respond this way when confronted with something that goes beyond their comfort zone.
Tara's concern is real. And it's why the donor should be carefully tested.
Regarding ingesting feces, first of all you already do that without even noticing, unless you live in a bubble. One of the first things that we do when we are born is to acquire the bacteria that lives in the vagina and the perineum.
Biodynamic agriculture uses feces to fertilize the soil more effective than any other method. And even commercial agriculture uses feces to fertilize. Those microorganisms will be on all of the produce, and even if you sterilize with chlorine, some will remain.
When we talk about transplants, it's usually done by some medium to protect the feces from hydrochloric acid and to reach the intestines.
The reason to take a round of potent antibiotics before is to guarantee that the transplant has surface to adhere, otherwise it will be just an insignificant amount of microorganisms against pathogens.
I've heard countless positive testimonials and the success rate is about 90%. Fecal transplant is not very profitable, otherwise it would be in the news and you would feel safe about it.
The main reason to choose the fecal transplant over probiotics is because is very hard to reproduce the complexity of those microorganisms. It is an emerging field that are discovering little by little what really happens.
Fermented foods won't recover you from the point of being ill to health. And a single round of antibiotic could wipe out a specific colonie that you won't be able to get anywhere, except from a transplant.

Ps.: even ingesting feces directly (from a tested donor) might be one last resource, if you can't find safer ways to do it.

 

[Amazoniac]

if you haven't tried high dose vitamin e, try it before fecal transplant (which I wouldn't personally do. if the intestine is permeable, i don't think the transplant cures that.)

Our intestine should be permeable, otherwise we can't absorb food. And it cures by shifting the dysbiosis and infections to a healthier and commensal environment. In other words, it's their by-product that can be problematic due to the exposure to lipopolysaccharides: endotoxins.

 

[johns74]

Our intestine should be permeable, otherwise we can't absorb food.

I meant, obviously, permeable to an excessive amount of toxins. When people refer to permeable intestines as a disease, they don't mean permeable to nutrients.

 

[Amazoniac]

The main concern would be their by-product, robbing your nutrients and not manufacturing beneficial ones.

Edit: forgot to mention that sometimes when you have a balanced community of microorganisms, some of them sacrifice themselves in order to remove ingested toxins as much as possible before affecting the whole, like in the case of heavy metals.

 

[Amazoniac]

It is not by accident that the udders in ruminants are located near the anus. Since they are so dependant on bacterial fermentation, it's wise to place the udders that close to the anus so that their babies, from an early age, acquire those microorganisms from the mother's feces.
Just because we are able to digest meat doesn't mean that we don't rely anymore on bacterial fermentation and don't need to acquire it from feces.
If you consume raw milk you are without doubt consuming those, which is why raw milk has to be very reliable (like the donor of the fecal transplant).

 

[pboy]

why don't you guys just put a bunch of ***t around your house then? I mean seriously...come on people! I don't think you realize how far out the 'health' people have taken you. Youre basically violating every faculty you were naturally given by believing such stuff.

How do you actually know there are probiotics and they matter? Do you not realize that they are toxic and a slight parasite, and unnecessary?

 

[Such_Saturation]

why don't you guys just put a bunch of s*** around your house then? I mean seriously...come on people! I don't think you realize how far out the 'health' people have taken you. Youre basically violating every faculty you were naturally given by believing such stuff.

How do you actually know there are probiotics and they matter? Do you not realize that they are toxic and a slight parasite, and unnecessary?

[Insert generic "healthy flora stereotype" response here]

 

[lindsay]

why don't you guys just put a bunch of s*** around your house then? I mean seriously...come on people! I don't think you realize how far out the 'health' people have taken you. Youre basically violating every faculty you were naturally given by believing such stuff.

How do you actually know there are probiotics and they matter? Do you not realize that they are toxic and a slight parasite, and unnecessary?

[Insert generic "healthy flora stereotype" response here]

If you really listen to Ray Peat, he says that germ free mice are more robust..... until they enter a world of germs. And since we live in a world of germs, we might as well be able to cope with them (this was from at least one interview). I'm not saying go put poo around your home, but living with bacteria is part of living.

I think there is a place for gut sterility and a place for healthy micro-organisms. For instance, antibiotics were super helpful for me after having appendicitis (until they wore off and bad bacteria started creeping in again). But I've also used Kefir, potato starch and honey to treat myself following food poisoning and it was so effective, I was astonished.

Ray Peat is really into the Russian scientists, but he's seemingly ignored the Russian love of pickled and fermented foods because they didn't eat a lot of dairy during soviet times. They eat pickled garlic, pickles (actually, they pretty much pickle all things to survive winter), pickled cabbage, Kefir, vodka (to kill bacteria), and that Korean salad made with pickled carrot & garlic (now that is one potent carrot salad, let me tell you). Pickled undigestible foods survive the small intestine and carry the bacteria to the large intestine. If people on here ate that pickled Korean carrot salad, they would have much better luck with the carrot salad. I ate that stuff all the time. It's not super tasty, but my gut health was much better when I lived there eating all the pickled foods. I was much thinner and more robust then too. Also, google search Kholodets. Another favorite food there.

 

[Suikerbuik]

just put a bunch of s*** around your house then?

Lol . Absolutely an intelligent line of thinking here. Thank you for the advice!

 

[Such_Saturation]

And that would be because of less stuff entering the body or less response from the body. We are talking about a very particular context which is great, but we cannot rule out an influence of the mainstream which talks about this matter in completely absolute terms, as though flora were inherently good and necessary. Not making that distinction will set us up for the many incoherences that are actually around like fat=sick. That said, I think a strong mind will make the germs become even collaborative, or learn to stop responding to their endotoxin for example.

 

[Amazoniac]

This is why studies done in labs are dangerous. They usually isolate a single variable and then people try to implement the findings in their lives. Put the animals used in the studies used as reference in the real world and they won't survive that long (actually, they already tried that).
pboy, you are not realizing the importance of this subject. If someone tells me that a procedure has about 90% of success, it should be reason enough to stop and reconsider our current beliefs.
You realize the importance of consuming carbohydrates but fail to realise that even when we starve, our bodies keep our gut lining feeding the microbes. And by avoiding carbohydrates you limit the production of those compounds.
In other words, we co-evolved with those microorganisms and there is no other method as effective for restoring intestinal balance as transplanting fecal matter using a pill or a tube (inserted in the mouth or anus).
By the way, the floor of your home can be already full of ***t that your shoes carried from the streets, just because you don't see it, doesn't mean that isn't there..

 

[Such_Saturation]

Does a germless rat have dirty babies?

 

[johns74]

I think Ray Peat's recommendation for eating a raw carrot often is based in part on the observation that germ-free rats live longer.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I think Ray Peat's recommendation for eating a raw carrot often is based in part on the observation that germ-free rats live longer.

I am under the impression it is based on the observations that carrots in a bag in a pocket don't decompose like lettuce, and that so many people have turned their life around with daily carrots. See how universal this approach is?

 

[Suikerbuik]

Well said Amazoniac, again.

you are not realizing the importance of this subject.

And for those questioning safety this study came out last summer.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24890442

 

[lindsay]

I think Ray Peat's recommendation for eating a raw carrot often is based in part on the observation that germ-free rats live longer.

I am under the impression it is based on the observations that carrots in a bag in a pocket don't decompose like lettuce, and that so many people have turned their life around with daily carrots. See how universal this approach is?

Yeah, but they decompose even less if you pickle them for awhile and add in garlic. Garlic is a way stronger antibiotic than carrots. The two combined (and pickled for better preservation) are much stronger. I've also had good luck with pickled cabbage salads - the kind that have been sitting in their own juices for days.

 

[pboy]

theres not much else I can say...go down the Frankenstein mad scientist (doctor) route if you want, with slicing bodies and inplanting other peoples ***t...I mean, theres been million and one crazy things that people have done throughout history and had people believing in...and they turn out to just have been crazy. Ive healed myself without any such stuff and so I know its unnecessary, entirely, and eating probiotics tastes gross to me now, like my palate rejects anything other than maybe cheese, which I haven't even eaten in a while. Anything fermented creates high amounts of histamine and other allergenic amino acids like tyramine. Its been known for a long time in India that fermented foods are unhealthy. People have died from playing with probiotics...I mean, theres so much obvious proof of the benefit of sanitariness. That's always what people who don't have it want and need to avoid sickness. People found ways of preserving food with microbes that wouldn't kill them, but that doesn't mean they aren't still an irritant and can overtake a compromised person. Use your senses and gut, theyre always right...that's all you have. Stop trusting crazy people who are way in over their heads and have no way to turn back. Go ahead if you want, ill still laugh at the notion and consider it crazy
Fermented foods, if the bacteria do survive, turn valuable material you might have digested into depleted or fragmented forms that often have irritating qualities like lactic acid, and other endotoxins and histamines and stuff. I guarantee you if you asked Peat, and im not saying this because he would, but I guarantee you he would say its a bad idea

 

[Suikerbuik]

Let it be clear that I am not advising anyone to undergo such intervention. I haven't done anything like this myself either. I also agree you have to see an organism in its entity, but if such simple intervention turns out to be safe and effective and can help people in getting their lives back..? Imo the jury is still out and coming with such generalized thinking does not bring us anything further in understanding.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I don't trust garlic anymore, it gives me a worse headache than amoxicillin.