Dairy Almost Ruined My Teeth - WHAT? (calcium Vs Phosphate)

[Wagner83]

That is true, but for some reason I never felt good on eggshell calcium, but oyster shell calcium did wonders. Most likely some extra factor unaccounted for.

Do you have a source for the calcium from oysters?

Salt, people. Salt.

More Dietary Salt Increases Urea Synthesis And Energy Requirements

haidut: I think the increase in urea and energy requirements (metabolism) would be solid reasons to increase salt intake as per Peat's recommendations. However, the high cortisol release is potentially bothersome and may explain some negative effects of higher salt intake in sick people, as @burtlancast mentioned a few times.

The Great Salt Controversy. JUMP IN

The average person is mightily disinclined to curtail the diet he has followed all his life. He is not aware that nearly all bad food habits are stimulation habits: that is, the body has almost automatically found out what makes it feel better for a half hour or so and what will mask the depression and fatigue symptoms momentarily. Some people will eat a good deal of salt others large amounts of meat washed down with cups of strong coffee, while still others rely on sweets or combination of foods which prove harmful in their individual cases. When I take the stimulation away, the individual feels weak and depressed and headachy temporarily while the body adjusts to the new regime and the toxic matter is eliminated. Without taking this into consideration, though, many patients decide that dietary reform just isn't for them. They came to the doctor for immediate relief and instead they feel worse. So they return to their stimulation habits. It is a tragic decision I cannot fight.

This bit is very anti Peat but interesting nonetheless.

 

[Prosper]

That is true, but for some reason I never felt good on eggshell calcium, but oyster shell calcium did wonders. Most likely some extra factor unaccounted for.

Interesting, where they of equal consistency, or was the oyster powder finer?

 

[SaltGirl]

The oyster calcium is sadly a supplement made locally(1 gram of calcium per pill). Regarding the eggshell calcium I wonder if it was due to the chicken being treated poorly. The place where the eggs came from was shut down a few months back due to horrible treatment of their chicken.

I also remembered something else. While I was doing high-milk and no calcium supplement I would sometimes get horrible Charlie Horses in my lower leg while I was sleeping. I'd literally scream in pain. After I stopped doing milk exclusively(except for cooking, in coffee, baking, etc) this problem disappeared virtually over night. A part of me feels that the milk C/P ratio is a bit more complicated than many initially thought.

 

[Prosper]

Yeah, makes sense. It also seems that human milk has a ratio of 4:1 whereas cow milk has less than 1.5:1. Goat milk is a bit better in this regard too.

 

[Amazoniac]

?
Search for "pasteurization calcium insoluble". I have no idea if it's a real concern or not.

 

[BemusedObserver]

Dairy is a major phosphate source, especially milk, but I think farmers cheese is the worst, in terms of Ca : P ratio. Aged dry cheeses are the best.

I eat a pound of farmers cheese every day, but I also eat three egg shells a day.

How do you eat the eggshells? Blended in shake or something?

 

[vb2005]

?
Search for "pasteurization calcium insoluble". I have no idea if it's a real concern or not.

Thats exactly the problem here. Unfortunately Peat gives wrong advice telling people that raw vs pasterised does not matter. Eating pasteurised dairy actually make you calcium deficient.
Raw grain fed milk is much better than organic grassfed pasteurised milk - in my experience.

 

[Amazoniac]

But not having enough vit D can make dairy unbearable due to its phosphate content, especially if it's skim:

Vitamin D - KMUD, 2016-11-18

"Vitamin D helps to balance the relation between calcium and phosphate, to prevent the overaccumulation of phosphate and to keep up the right level of calcium."

"excess phosphate and the reaction of the parathyroid hormone to that high phosphate intake is exactly the same as a deficiency of vitamin D. So too much phosphate, too little vitamin D, and you get what amounts to an early stage of chronic kidney degeneration. Parathyroid hormone and phosphate are called uremic toxins, late stage kidney disease. People are starting that process very early when they don't eat enough calcium and vitamin D."

"Not enough calcium and vitamin D or too much phosphate, the combination, any of those will cause your parathyroid hormone to increase, and elevated phosphate and elevated parathyroid hormone are very toxic to the kidneys."​

 

[Amazoniac]

"High calcium intake, by increasing the dietary requirement for magnesium, precipitated magnesium deficiency in rats[12,13,145,146] and in guinea pigs.[142] Metabolic studies in rats[136,138] have similarly shown that increasing the calcium intake increases magnesium loss."

If the hypopboyd have difficulty retaining magnesium, especially in the presence of excess calcium, vit D won't work the way it should due to dependence.

https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7015-11-187

"Magnesium, the second most abundant intracellular cation, plays a critical role in the synthesis and metabolism of parathyroid hormone (PTH) and vitamin D [21, 22, 23]. Previous studies have shown that the activities of three major enzymes determining 25(OH)D level [22, 23, 24, 25] and vitamin D binding protein [23] are magnesium dependent (Figure 1). Magnesium deficiency, which leads to reduced 1,25(OH)2 vitamin D and impaired PTH response [23], has been implicated in ‘magnesium-dependent vitamin-D-resistant rickets’ [21]. Magnesium supplementation substantially reversed the resistance to vitamin D treatment [21]. Interestingly, a study conducted among osteoporosis patients showed much higher prevalence rates of magnesium deficiency or insufficiency among people with insufficient 25(OH)D than those with sufficient 25(OH)D [26]. Two small clinical trials of magnesium-deficient patients [23, 27] found that magnesium infusion alone led to a non-significant increase in 1,25(OH)2D and 25(OH)D [23] whereas magnesium infusion plus oral vitamin D substantially increased both serum 25(OH)D and 1,25(OH)2D [27]. These findings suggest a potential interaction between vitamin D and magnesium treatments and a possible moderate effect of magnesium on 25(OH)D status."​

 

[ecstatichamster]

The reason you don’t want to use calcium carbonate is heavy metals. Eggshell powder can be the lowest in heavy metals, followed by Oystershell powder. Calcium carbonate I think is mined and often contains heavy metals.

 

[ecstatichamster]

But not having enough vit D can make dairy unbearable due to its phosphate content, especially if it's skim:

Vitamin D - KMUD, 2016-11-18

"Vitamin D helps to balance the relation between calcium and phosphate, to prevent the overaccumulation of phosphate and to keep up the right level of calcium."

"excess phosphate and the reaction of the parathyroid hormone to that high phosphate intake is exactly the same as a deficiency of vitamin D. So too much phosphate, too little vitamin D, and you get what amounts to an early stage of chronic kidney degeneration. Parathyroid hormone and phosphate are called uremic toxins, late stage kidney disease. People are starting that process very early when they don't eat enough calcium and vitamin D."

"Not enough calcium and vitamin D or too much phosphate, the combination, any of those will cause your parathyroid hormone to increase, and elevated phosphate and elevated parathyroid hormone are very toxic to the kidneys."​

Thank you. This is super useful

 

[Amazoniac]

.

 

[DDK]

Recently I had been concerned by transparent teeth enamel and muscle twitching, along with occassional shortness of breath and insomnia. I thought I had magnesium deficiency, so I started supplementing with magnesium glycinate. No effect. Then I rationalized that perhaps I was deficient in D and K2. No effect.

Every symptom just seemed to worsen and worsen no matter what I did. A couple of weeks ago I noticed a new white spot of early decay in my front tooth. It had appeared despite the daily brushing and the "nutritious diet" I had engineered for myself. This was when I realized that I MUST be doing something wrong.

After logging a couple of days nutritional intake, I noticed that my calcium/phosphorus ratio was basically less than 1:1. I started looking up symptoms of hypocalcemia and hyperphosphatemia, and of course, everything matched. It was time to begin supplementation with egg shell calcium. All symptoms were gone in MERE DAYS. My teeth look strong again, I have no shortness of breath and no more twitching muscles. The early tooth decay disappeared too.

I had thought my calcium intake was adequate from all the cheese and milk I've been consuming. It WOULD have been without the massive amount of phosphate that came with it. It seems that controlling your phosphate intake is absolutely crucial. Peat was right again.

Prosper,

You didn't specify the type of milk you were consuming? Pasteurized, UHT, skim, whole, fortified?

 

[Prosper]

Prosper,

You didn't specify the type of milk you were consuming? Pasteurized, UHT, skim, whole, fortified?

Organic, non-homogenized but pasteurized full fat.

 

[Mossy]

With my milk, cronometer is not showing the low ratio of calcium to phosphorus, that most on this thread are talking about. I'm scanning the bar code in most instances, and I'm clearly ahead in calcium. I could assume the phosphorus is not accurately being registered from the nutritional data; or, I could assume it is and all is good. Hmmm -- may have to look into this some more.

 

[mayweatherking]

But not having enough vit D can make dairy unbearable due to its phosphate content, especially if it's skim:

Vitamin D - KMUD, 2016-11-18

"Vitamin D helps to balance the relation between calcium and phosphate, to prevent the overaccumulation of phosphate and to keep up the right level of calcium."

"excess phosphate and the reaction of the parathyroid hormone to that high phosphate intake is exactly the same as a deficiency of vitamin D. So too much phosphate, too little vitamin D, and you get what amounts to an early stage of chronic kidney degeneration. Parathyroid hormone and phosphate are called uremic toxins, late stage kidney disease. People are starting that process very early when they don't eat enough calcium and vitamin D."

"Not enough calcium and vitamin D or too much phosphate, the combination, any of those will cause your parathyroid hormone to increase, and elevated phosphate and elevated parathyroid hormone are very toxic to the kidneys."​

yeah i was going to post asking op what his vit D level was.. that is probably the issue, vit D literally is what absorbs calcium

 

[DDK]

Organic, non-homogenized but pasteurized full fat.

I do think the type of milk matters here, probably the most overlooked detail. I am drinking raw whole milk right now and my teeth/bones are in great shape. When I was drinking organic, pasteurized, non-homogenized whole milk, my teeth were in terrible shape. However, when I was drinking pasteurized, homogenized, fortified, skim milk, my teeth were very strong.

I think the vitamin K in the raw whole milk plus usable calcium is why my bone health is good. I think my teeth were good with the pasteurized, homogenized, fortified, skim milk because of the added vitamin D.

 

[Mossy]

I do think the type of milk matters here, probably the most overlooked detail. I am drinking raw whole milk right now and my teeth/bones are in great shape. When I was drinking organic, pasteurized, non-homogenized whole milk, my teeth were in terrible shape. However, when I was drinking pasteurized, homogenized, fortified, skim milk, my teeth were very strong.

I think the vitamin K in the raw whole milk plus usable calcium is why my bone health is good. I think my teeth were good with the pasteurized, homogenized, fortified, skim milk because of the added vitamin D.

Could you speak to the reason and/or data that would suggest organic non-homogenized milk would be more damaging to teeth than non-organic homogenized? Are you saying the non-homogenized had no added vitamin D, and that was the reason?

Also, is vitamin K and usable calcium only in raw milk?

I ask, because I've been searching out and attempting to distinguish the differences between the various milks, and it's hard to separate the hearsay from the facts.

 

[DaveFoster]

"One important function of carbon dioxide is to regulate the movement of positively charged alkali metal ions, such as sodium and calcium. When too much calcium enters a cell it activates many enzymes, prevents muscle and nerve cells from relaxing, and ultimately kills the cell. The constant formation of acidic carbon dioxide in the cell allows the cell to remove calcium, along with the small amount of sodium which is constantly entering the cell.

When there is adequate sodium in the extracellular fluid, the continuous inward movement of sodium ions into the resting cell activates an enzyme, sodium-potassium ATPase, causing ATP to break down into ADP and phosphate, which stimulates the consumption of fuel and oxygen to maintain an adequate level of ATP. Increasing the concentration of sodium increases the energy consumption and carbon dioxide production of the cell. The sodium, by increasing carbon dioxide production, protects against the excitatory, toxic effects of the intracellular calcium." -Dr. Peat

I think of salt as insurance that calcium gets properly utilized by the body and as a hedge against excessive calcium

It's mainly thyroid though (as mentioned), hence the role of carbon dioxide. A cousin of mine ate ridiculous amounts of sugar up until his young adulthood (pure, white sugar from cereals, sodas, and chocolate milk.) He had perfect teeth up until recently (when his metabolism has obviously slowed down dye to stress, and he has started to develop MPB and bags under his eyes.)

 

[GreekDemiGod]

Following. I'm having trouble keeping my Phosphate intake low on a high calorie diet.