Cigarettes Anti-estrogenic Pro Dopamine?

[Elephanto]

I had a saliva hormone test after vaping nicotine everyday and my progesterone almost got TOO high in relation to my estrogen like even higher than what Dr Peat recommends - it had doubled from 6 months before when I was not vaping. I stopped. Bummer because my brain loved it .

What made you stop ?

 

[vulture]

What about this? (oral tobacco)
Snus - Wikipedia

 

[danishispsychic]

What made you stop ?

couple things- my teeth were getting stained and my progesterone was WAY too high - ( !!! ) in relation to my estrogen - ( saliva test ) - i felt like it was taxing my adrenals and lungs

 

[General Orange]

Isolated nicotine is void of harmaline alkaloids found in tobacco which are psychoactive and maoi, this may give insight to the difference in experience.

Exposure to beta-carbolines norharman and harman. - PubMed - NCBI
The aromatic beta-carbolines norharman and harman have been implicated in a number of human diseases including Parkinson's disease, tremor, addiction and cancer. It has been shown that these compounds are normal body constituents formed endogenously but external sources have been identified.
Here, we summarise literature data on levels of norharman and harman in fried meat and fish, meat extracts, alcoholic drinks, and coffee brews. Other sources include edible and medicinal plants but tobacco smoke has been identified as a major source. Exposure levels from these different dietary sources are estimated to a maximum of 4 microg norharman per kg body weight (bw) per day and 1 microg harman per kg bw per day. Exposure via tobacco smoke depends on smoking habits and type of cigarettes but can be estimated to 1.1 microg/kg bw for norharman and 0.6 microg/kg bw for harman per package of cigarettes smoked. Studies on toxicokinetics indicate that inhalative exposure leads to a rapid increase in plasma levels and high bioavailability of norharman and harman. Oral bioavailability is lower but there are indications that sublingual absorption may increase dietary uptake of beta-carbolines.

 

[General Orange]

Relative exposure to beta-carbolines norharman and harman from foods and tobacco smoke. - PubMed - NCBI

Norharman and harman are two heterocyclic beta-carboline (9H-pyrido[3,4-b]indole) alkaloids with biological and potential toxicological activity that appear in foodstuffs and environmental sources.
To assess the occurrence and distribution of these compounds and to estimate the exposure levels based on the detected amounts, numerous samples of foodstuffs and cigarette smoke were analysed by solid-phase extraction and high-performance liquid chromatography-fluorescence.
The levels found of beta-carbolines were highly variable. Low processed foodstuffs (i.e. milk, yoghurt, uncooked meats and fish) did not contain norharman and harman above the detection limit. Others, however, contained relatively high concentrations (at the tens of ng g(-1) or microg l(-1) level) depending on the processing conditions as, for example, 'well-done' cooked meat and fish.
The highest amounts of norharman and harman were found in brewed coffee (29-207 microg l(-1)), sauces (soy sauce and Tabasco, among others; 4-252 microg l(-1)), 'well done' cooked meat and fish (57-160 ng g(-1)), toasted bread (42-160 ng g(-1)), and fermented alcoholic beverages (n.d.-41 mug l(-1)). beta-Carbolines also occurred in a high amount in the mainstream of cigarette smoke (207-2780 ng/cigarette), which is an important contributor to daily exposure to these compounds.
Based on these results, it is concluded that the daily exposure to beta-carbolines in humans might be from tens to hundreds of micrograms, with cigarette smoke, coffee, certain seasonings, cooked foods and alcoholic beverages, in this order, being the major contributors. Many other foodstuffs might also contribute with minor amounts of norharman and harman. Foods and tobacco smoke might be potential contributors to the reported endogenous presence of beta-carbolines in humans.

 

[Herbie]

Exposure to beta-carbolines norharman and harman. - PubMed - NCBI
The aromatic beta-carbolines norharman and harman have been implicated in a number of human diseases including Parkinson's disease, tremor, addiction and cancer. It has been shown that these compounds are normal body constituents formed endogenously but external sources have been identified.
Here, we summarise literature data on levels of norharman and harman in fried meat and fish, meat extracts, alcoholic drinks, and coffee brews. Other sources include edible and medicinal plants but tobacco smoke has been identified as a major source. Exposure levels from these different dietary sources are estimated to a maximum of 4 microg norharman per kg body weight (bw) per day and 1 microg harman per kg bw per day. Exposure via tobacco smoke depends on smoking habits and type of cigarettes but can be estimated to 1.1 microg/kg bw for norharman and 0.6 microg/kg bw for harman per package of cigarettes smoked. Studies on toxicokinetics indicate that inhalative exposure leads to a rapid increase in plasma levels and high bioavailability of norharman and harman. Oral bioavailability is lower but there are indications that sublingual absorption may increase dietary uptake of beta-carbolines.

What’s the point?

 

[lampofred]

I read that high progesterone levels make it easier to quit smoking, so maybe smoking is unconscious self-medication to increase progesterone levels, similar to drinking coffee

 

[General Orange]

@Benyamin Bulluc sorry, I was still getting to my point but the site went offline. That study is just a comparison between harmane sources. -edit
Looking at coffee and tobacco the harmane, norharmane per sé have good properties: The bad beta-carbolines harmaline and norharmaline which are not found in coffee, tobacco are toxic and involved in the Parkinson's. - but I don't know their toxic LD50 dosage -edit

Cool, it appears coffee and tobacco with nicotine and harmine increases performance (memory) by inhibiting serotonin, that is in the brain. -edit

Harmane inhibits serotonergic dorsal raphe neurons in the rat - Semantic Scholar
Harmane and norharmane (two beta-carbolines) are tobacco components or products. The effects of harmane and norharmane on serotonergic raphe neurons remain unknown. Harmane and norharmane are inhibitors of the monoamine oxidases A (MAO-A) and B (MAO-B), respectively.
To study the effects of harmane, norharmane, befloxatone (MAOI-A), and selegiline (MAOI-B) on the firing of serotonergic neurons.
To compare the effects of these compounds to those of nicotine (whose inhibitory action on serotonergic neurons has been previously described).
The effects of cotinine, a metabolite of nicotine known to interact with serotonergic systems, are also tested. In vivo electrophysiological recordings of serotonergic dorsal raphe neurons in the anaesthetized rat.
Nicotine, harmane, and befloxatone inhibited serotonergic dorsal raphe neurons. The other compounds had no effects. The inhibitory effect of harmane (rapid and long-lasting inhibition) differed from that of nicotine (short and rapidly reversed inhibition) and from that of befloxatone (slow, progressive, and long-lasting inhibition). The inhibitory effects of harmane and befloxatone were reversed by the * 5-HT1A antagonist WAY 100 635. Pretreatment of animals with p-chlorophenylalanine abolished the inhibitory effect of befloxatone, but not that of harmane. Nicotine, harmane, and befloxatone inhibit the activity of raphe serotonergic neurons. Therefore, at least two tobacco compounds, nicotine and harmane, inhibit the activity of serotonergic neurons. The mechanism by which harmane inhibits serotonergic dorsal raphe neurons is likely unrelated to a MAO-A inhibitory effect.

*

Considering that 5-HT1A and 5-HT7 receptors seem to interact in pharmacological terms (see above), hence, their functional role in memory has been studied with specific antagonists (5-HT1A receptor, WAY100635) and (5-HT7 receptor, SB-269970 or DR 4004), which decreased the improvement of performance in Pavlovian/instrumental autoshaping tasks, produced by the dual 5-HT1A/7 agonist 8-OH-DPAT to levels lower than control animals (Meneses, 2004).

The 5-HT7 receptor is involved in thermoregulation, circadian rhythm, learning and memory, and sleep. It is also speculated that this receptor may be involved in mood regulation, suggesting that it may be a useful target in the treatment of depression.[10][11]

-edits

 

[Herbie]

@General Orange

Interesting to see the studies. In the Amazon, I smoked nicotina rustica which is a type of tobacco which contains the highest levels of nicotine and beta carbolines and induced psychedelic experience when i was under the influence of other substances.

 

[BestSinceDAYONE]

Smoking is a conundrum, some of the countries that smoke the most (Switzerland, Greece, Andorra, Germany, France) have better health and lower cancer rates than countries that smoke far less (US, UK), there's got to be other lifestyle factors that can more than mitigate whatever harmful effects smoking has.

AFAIK even though the tobacco in American Spirits may be additive-free, they switched over to FSC paper a few years ago which contains noxious chemicals. I used to smoke those but started getting headaches when they changed the papers.

I think the only way to avoid most of the noxious chemicals added to cigarettes is to roll your own with organic tobacco and organic papers.

Correlation vs. causation.

There are WAYYYY more factors than just smoking you're looking at...

Compared to the U.S. & UK, they have socialized medicine, live a life MUCH, MUCH lower in terms of stress, Socioeconomic status plays a role as well

 

[General Orange]

The Harmane MOA inhibition appears to result in a decrease of Dopamine and serotonin MAO products / metabolites DOPAC and 5-HTIAA in this study.

Cigarette smokers have suppressed activity of monoamine oxidase (MAO) A and B in the brain. The exact compounds in cigarette smoke responsible for MAO inhibition are unknown, but nicotine does not inhibit the enzyme. Cigarette smoke contains sufficient levels of the ß-carboline compounds, harman and norharman, to inhibit MAO in vitro. However, the effects of ß-carbolines on MAO activity have not been well characterized in vivo.

This study examined the effects of harman (3–20 mg/kg intraperitoneally [i.p.]) and norharman (3–20 mg/kg, i.p.) on monoamine metabolism in mouse striatum and cortex as a method for assessing MAO activity in vivo. We hypothesized that harman and norharman would decrease MAO products DOPAC and 5-HIAA. Male C57BL/6 mice received drug or saline vehicle and were decapitated 30 minutes later. Tissue concentrations of DA, 5-HT, and their metabolites were quantified by high-performance liquid chromatography with electrochemical detection.
Harman dose-dependently decreased DOPAC in the striatum and cortex and 5-HIAA in the cortex. Norharman had similar effects but was less potent. Our data are consistent with inhibition of MAO by ß-carbolines and suggest that harman and norharman may contribute to reversible inhibition of MAO in human cigarette smokers.

And there seems to be a link between Harman and voluntary ethanol intake in rats in this study: Several beta-carbolines, including harman, induce voluntary ethanol intake in rats.

Administration of harman (2.27 mumol/kg, intraperitoneal application) elicited an increase of the dopamine efflux by 72% which returned to basal levels after approximately 300 min. ...
Extracellular 5-hydroxytryptamine in the nucleus accumbens was increased during the first 2 h after the administration of high doses (40.94 and 81.93 mumol/kg, intraperitoneal application). These findings indicate that harman affects the activity of mesolimbic dopaminergic neurons following a U-shaped dose-response relationship.

- Indeed, here we see a rise in dopamine in the rats brain of 72%. from the lowest dose, wow. But only high dosage of Harmane could increase the serotonin.

 

[fradon]

So recently I opted to get American Spirits natural cigarettes to smoke once in awhile. I've read that American Spirit is in fact not all organic but it's the best I can find aside from Rolling my own cigarettes which is really inconvenient.... I feel whenever I smoke my brain fog is lifted and my libido become strong and just a general feeling of being Alpha and grounded. So I read that nicotine is a potent anti estrogen which I totally feel that in my body whenever I smoke. Cigars don't give me the same effect as cigarettes though... I know that Mr peat speaks favorably of nicotine but smoking it is obviously not healthy. I don't want to hurt my athletic performance but if I could find a pure organic already rolled cigarette other than American Spirits or a way to get nicotine into my body occasionally without nicotine patches because those patches have other toxic things in them I would definitely try it out.... I'm a stutterer by the way and have anxiety along with restless leg syndrome. One of the only things that's made an noticeable difference in these and raise my confidence is the occasional cigarette. Let me know what you guys experiences are with tobacco and let me know if you found any Superior Waze to get nicotine

have you tried vaping. you can also get nicotine gum and pills.

on a side note i I think COCAINE would be a better option too bad its not legal as i read about how great pharmaceutical grade cocaine by MERCK is and Keith Richards and Sigmudn Freud all spoke highly of it. Cocaine was legal like a hundred years ago and you could buy at at an pharmacey.

The Diabolical Truth About Mass-Market Cocaine

 

[Herbie]

What about this? (oral tobacco)
Snus - Wikipedia

Swedish Snus is good gear and can be easily ordered online anything ‘general’ is good.

 

[dq139]

have you tried vaping. you can also get nicotine gum and pills.

on a side note i I think COCAINE would be a better option too bad its not legal as i read about how great pharmaceutical grade cocaine by MERCK is and Keith Richards and Sigmudn Freud all spoke highly of it. Cocaine was legal like a hundred years ago and you could buy at at an pharmacey.

The Diabolical Truth About Mass-Market Cocaine

I'm probably going to steer clear of the cocaine LOL don't need to play Russian roulette with my health any more than I have in the past... But like I said I heard the nicotine gum and nicotine patches or filled with toxic crap along with the nicotine. I ordered online American Spirit organic rolling tobacco with the natural rolling paper so hopefully that offsets some of the negatives and I don't get cancer LOL

 

[Runenight201]

have you tried vaping. you can also get nicotine gum and pills.

on a side note i I think COCAINE would be a better option too bad its not legal as i read about how great pharmaceutical grade cocaine by MERCK is and Keith Richards and Sigmudn Freud all spoke highly of it. Cocaine was legal like a hundred years ago and you could buy at at an pharmacey.

The Diabolical Truth About Mass-Market Cocaine

​

lmao oh my, first we liberate sugar, than tobacco, now COCAINE? I can form a halfway decent argument for the first two, but trying to rationalize cocaine (I'm not convinced its actually good for you btw) would land me straight into addictville by the vast majority of the population.

While I think purified cocaine can be no good for the human body besides in very minute quantities, this got me various curious about the coca leaf. Finding information on the nutritional value of coca was difficult, but Harvard did a study in 1975 on the nutritional value of coca

Look at that whopping 1749mg of calcium per 100g of the leaf! Not too mention that the cocaine alkaloid composition of the plant is approximately .25% to .77%, so ingesting 100g of the leaf is equivalent to doing .25 to .75g of cocaine! For anyone who has ever done blow....that is quite the stimulus!


Could coca leaf be the secret sauce to amazing productivity, output, health, and energy that we're all passing up on?


Eating 100g of coca leaf would probably be difficult, and I'd imagine stomach upset would happen far before that amount could be ingested, but I think it could be fun one day to get my hands on some coca leaf, steam it, and chomp it down =P

All of this is making me crave some leaves and a cigarette....

 

[Herbie]

Ray Peat said that the coca leaf extract is still in Coca Cola and has anti inflammatory properties but the psycho active aspects have been removed. I wonder if any of the calcium is in the Coca Cola, he did say that it has potassium despite not being labeled as such.

 

[cyclops]

oh my, first we liberate sugar, than tobacco, now COCAINE?

It's all good bro, just don't eat salmon.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Coca leaves are fantastic. I had them in Peru.

 

[Runenight201]

Coca leaves are fantastic. I had them in Peru.

Did you eat them raw or brew them in a tea?

 

[ecstatichamster]

Did you eat them raw or brew them in a tea?

Chewed them. Or in tea.