Advantages Of Veganism

[Captain_Coconut]

I was vegan for 7 years, vegetarian for 3 or more before that. Going vegan was great for the first couple of years, the rest was pretty miserable. I think the same benefits can be had - without the terrible deficiencies that set in - by simply restricting animal product consumption to 3 or 4 days a week, or just one meal a day. The trouble is that the quality of all vegan foods has declined significantly in the past decade (more atmospheric pollution and less rich top soil) so it is going to be even harder to do it right than it was even a decade ago (e.g. levels of glyphosate in vegan foods, jet engine exhaust on organic foods, general absorbed car exhaust from the truck transport of fresh vegetable). Overall the advantage to being vegan is probably the same as short lived advantages to caloric restriction or most restrictive diets - it gives your body time to compensate and heal whatever damage has been done from the thing you are excluding (which is contaminated and otherwise healthy... unless PUFA, generally speaking)- and it likely reduces ones toxic load a bit - but after that one will run out of reserves and then nutritional deficiencies set in. As with a lot of restrictive diets - there is a certain euphoria that comes in during the compensation / healing phase - when the body adapts to running off of reserves the efficiency effect of bypassing the burden of assimilation creates a euphoric health state- it doesn't last forever. RP writes frequently about the caloric restriction benefits being primarily due to toxin avoidance - in this day and age when nearly everything is contaminated defensive measures like activated charcoal and carrot salad really seems the most practical to me when compared to running away from everything.

 

[mt_dreams]

I assume you get organic sugar apples to avoid pesticides and what not? Any advantages to regular apples

sugar apples are in the grouping of fruits unofficially called the custard fruit family. they are nothing like traditional apples, as they are a tropical fruit. if you consider yourself a connoisseur of fruits, it is your duty to seek out and try this family of fruits. first time i tried them, i dropped to a knee & thanks the gods for this creation. most asian markets will have them. i've also seen them at some latino markets.

I've noticed on this site that when people say "fried" they really mean "cooked in oil", or "sauteed".

Everyone talks about "frying" mushrooms, but I can't imagine that there are that many Peaters covering mushrooms in flour and dunking them in coconut/olive oil.

it seems you have confused 'deep fried' with 'fried'. deep fried is submerged in lots of oil, regular frying has less oil, and sauteed has very little oil. also the act of battering up a food is a different act than cooking. for ex, you can bake battered food. growing up my family ate lots of fried veggies like rapini, & brussel sprouts, while also sauteing finely cut veggies like celeriac, mushrooms & onions. an onion bloom would be an ex of a deep fried veggie. most people sauteed their veggies, so fried veggies is not always accurate.

 

[lvysaur]

it seems you have confused 'deep fried' with 'fried'.

I'm not confused about the definition of deep fry. It's just that the word "fry" by itself carries a heavy connotation of browning/searing, which occurs barely or not at all in most veggies.

Particularly with mushrooms, which undergo zero browning. I guess parsley and celery could get a bit. I used the deep fry example because that's the only way you could possibly get any maillard reaction on a mushroom. You can't get it from pan frying, because that basically becomes steaming.

 

[benaoao]

I’m not sure about all the bloating tbh (for the diet above)

I’m myself conducting an experiment going from 20% ish calories from animal (steak, gelatin, 1-2eggs a day, low fat dairy) to plants +gelatin only. I’ll do it for 3 weeks for a start, and getting bloods done around mid June: CBC,CMP,CRP,lipids,hormones. The last one because I’m doing a pct after 2 years of trt. Since LH is central for cholesterol metabolism I’m not expecting a drop (from 205TC / 145LDL) but my vegan friends told me I’m going to get 2 digits LDL (a great sign of a lower overall inflammation, to be confirmed with CRP) and if i don’t nearly halve it, it’s because of the gelatin lol. Gotta love some bias.

 

[YourUniverse]

Sugar apples are my favourite fruit along with soursop

 

[CarbAppreciator]

I have been vegan since 16,5 and vegetarian since 11, now I have 20... Always eat tons of fruits an low fat...

I eat commonly: Orange Juice, sweetsops, persimmon, potato, collard, eggplant, zucchini, beets, carrots, parsley, celery, coffee, palm oil sugar, all greens cooked; im cronometer all nutrients ranging between 132% to 1940%, protein 72gr to 86gr...

The only one a bit difficult to me is Vitamin E (132%)

How is your B12? vit k, zinc, calcium, choline, sodium?

Also protein quality and digestability is worth considering for vegans, plant proteins are known to be relatively difficult to assimilate, and lots of it ends up in the colon.

 

[CarbAppreciator]

robknob you think what you said is unreasonable, irrational, no? Why you dont think you are in the lower of the food chain?
Massacring babies and abusing creatures unnecessarily and cruelly is disgusting! Have you ever been able to feel the suffering of these babies?
Or have you imagined how monstrous it is, transforming a living being into a sensitive milk machine?
I knew people that have been in the top of the food chain, they eat humans, and others eat gods as well, like Cronos
You is capable of doing that too?
Anyway, fights hardly have any honor or any use, in real world, imagine here

Living organisms require death to live, your eating of huge amounts of plants represents mass death.

If we set the "milk machines" free, they would become extinct, they exist in symbiosis with humans, as do all domesticated animals, our success as a species ensures their success, and so vegans are actually threatening the very existance of these animals that they purport to help...
and seeing as there has never been found a culture of vegan humans existing in history implies that veganism is not an eating strategy that is viable for an advanced species such as humans, which must support a very resource intensive human brain. And if one were to really be coarse, one could reason that veganism is really a force of de-evolution, back to apes.

 

[Capt Nirvana]

In 2016, my father became a vegan after some cholesterol issues. Since then he has been a devoted follower of Dr. Michael Greger (who in my opinion doesn't look that healthy). I've seen the sicence and seen the studies and I've been trying to wrap my head around why is it that it is so popular and that it has many supposed health benefits and why it contradict's many of the things that have been said by Ray Peat. So far I've come to some conclusions of why veganism, although not better than a high metabolism diet, is better that the Standard American Diet.

So far I had though of some arguments:

-High calcium to phosphate ratio
-Low in inflammatory amino acids like tryprophan, methionine and cysteine
-High in carbs which are essential for good thyroid health

What I can't get is the PUFA. They advocate eating a lot of omega 3 fatty acids. How can they have low mortality rates when eating a high PUFA diet? My guess is something about anti-oxidants, but I'm not sure. Any guess? Thanks, I'm just trying to learn here.

How old is your father? Many people free of Learned Helplessness can live into their 80s and 90s on just about any diet. Very rich people (as opposed to the merely rich) commonly live past 100. Mr. Eats-All ate bicycles, shopping carts, televisions, and a 150 Cessna airplane (it took him two years), and even he was able to make it up to 57. (He died of a knife wound. Was it from the outside or from the inside?)

 

[x-ray peat]

I think the same benefits can be had - without the terrible deficiencies that set in - by simply restricting animal product consumption to 3 or 4 days a week, or just one meal a day.

Ive been eating like this for a while plus two eggs every morning. People who promote this, Protein Cycling, claim that you encourage autophagy of dead cellular material during the lower protein days and like you said, get other fasting type benefits. Not sure how sustainable it is. Im sure Ray would think it to be too stressful and catabolic in a bad way. Would love to hear more of yours and others' thoughts on this.

here is one semi-science backed take on it.
Protein cycling diet for life extension - Rogue Health and Fitness

 

[Dolf]

How old is your father? Many people free of Learned Helplessness can live into their 80s and 90s on just about any diet. Very rich people (as opposed to the merely rich) commonly live past 100. Mr. Eats-All ate bicycles, shopping carts, televisions, and a 150 Cessna airplane (it took him two years), and even he was able to make it up to 57. (He died of a knife wound. Was it from the outside or from the inside?)

He's about to turn 50. Yes, he does not seem to have any sign of learned helplesness as oposed to me. Maybe it has something to do with that.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Ive been eating like this for a while plus two eggs every morning. People who promote this, Protein Cycling, claim that you encourage autophagy of dead cellular material during the lower protein days and like you said, get other fasting type benefits. Not sure how sustainable it is. Im sure Ray would think it to be too stressful and catabolic in a bad way. Would love to hear more of yours and others' thoughts on this.

here is one semi-science backed take on it.
Protein cycling diet for life extension - Rogue Health and Fitness

My opinion is it is good to do occasionally, probably best to save for days when you know you will be very sedentary. I feel better when I eat like this. I don't keep any strict rules, but usually save protein heavy meals for lunch and dinner, and some days I just don't get that much protein if I don't feel like it, I find my energy is better when I simply listen to my appetite. I emailed Ray about it, his response was very short without any explanation, perhaps someone else knows his general explanation and can share it.

Me:
"Hi Ray,

I would like to hear your thoughts on this idea of improving ones health by promoting autophagy through the occasional restriction of protein intake to under 5% of total calories for the day, while not restricting saturated fat or sugar intake.

More can be found here: Protein Cycling Diet

The idea is "inducing autophagy by diet manipulation may delay or prevent the neurodegenerative diseases of aging".

Do you see any benefits for someone to do this restriction several times a week? For instance when one has a muscle injury that is taking a long time to heal and they are already getting proper nutrition, would this be worth trying or is it a case of more potential risk than reward.
Provided general health and nutrition is already okay, would promoting autophagy like this put too much stress on the body which over time will lead to hypothyroidism, similarly to how regular fasting will?
Is there a simple way one could limit certain aminos / forms of protein, rather than restrict all protein - to achieve a similar state of autophagy? What about supplements or foods to promote autophagy.
Thank you,"

Ray's response:
"I don’t think it’s benefical or safe to increase it."

The concept makes a lot of sense to me, autophagy operates efficiently in youth and then slows down proportionally with age, why wouldn't we want to keep the levels active? It is a large factor at play during the years of peak-health; waking up feeling refreshed - going to bed sore and waking up not sore - I suspect that is largely from the autophagy which occurs during rest. Promoting autophagy doesn't seem very disimilar to me to the logic many of us share when we opt to start taking pregnenolone in our 30s and on, in fact I would say it is less extreme in that it is an inherent adaptation of the body rather than a foreign substance we are introducing.

 

[CarbAppreciator]

My opinion is it is good to do occasionally, probably best to save for days when you know you will be very sedentary. I feel better when I eat like this. I don't keep any strict rules, but usually save protein heavy meals for lunch and dinner, and some days I just don't get that much protein if I don't feel like it, I find my energy is better when I simply listen to my appetite. I emailed Ray about it, his response was very short without any explanation, perhaps someone else knows his general explanation and can share it.

Me:
"Hi Ray,

I would like to hear your thoughts on this idea of improving ones health by promoting autophagy through the occasional restriction of protein intake to under 5% of total calories for the day, while not restricting saturated fat or sugar intake.

More can be found here: Protein Cycling Diet

The idea is "inducing autophagy by diet manipulation may delay or prevent the neurodegenerative diseases of aging".

Do you see any benefits for someone to do this restriction several times a week? For instance when one has a muscle injury that is taking a long time to heal and they are already getting proper nutrition, would this be worth trying or is it a case of more potential risk than reward.
Provided general health and nutrition is already okay, would promoting autophagy like this put too much stress on the body which over time will lead to hypothyroidism, similarly to how regular fasting will?
Is there a simple way one could limit certain aminos / forms of protein, rather than restrict all protein - to achieve a similar state of autophagy? What about supplements or foods to promote autophagy.
Thank you,"

Ray's response:
"I don’t think it’s benefical or safe to increase it."

The concept makes a lot of sense to me, autophagy operates efficiently in youth and then slows down proportionally with age, why wouldn't we want to keep the levels active? It is a large factor at play during the years of peak-health; waking up feeling refreshed - going to bed sore and waking up not sore - I suspect that is largely from the autophagy which occurs during rest. Promoting autophagy doesn't seem very disimilar to me to the logic many of us share when we opt to start taking pregnenolone in our 30s and on, in fact I would say it is less extreme in that it is an inherent adaptation of the body rather than a foreign substance we are introducing.

I share your suspicion, I believe the statistics surrounding coffee's health benefits (decaf+regular) stem from its promotion of autophagy. Personally, I tend to suspect it is more efficient to do a complete fast as carbs are pretty effective at preventing protein wasting. I have read about the protein cycling diet, and it is very interesting and would love if it were to be proven to work in humans, as advertised , but it doesn't currently have much science to back it up, it seems to rely heavily on theory.

You can try and send Ray the studies on coffee and autophagy, I'd be interested in what he says there, but he seems pretty stuck in his ways w/ regards to fear of catabolism.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

@robknob I would ask but the more I emailed Ray the shorter his responses became. I'm taking a nice long break, so as not to bug him! I have read arguments that protein cycling may enhance autophagy more than simply fasting, I forget why but it made some sense. Either way - I have experienced increased energy when I don't go heavy on the protein constantly, where as standard fasting or intermittent fasting ended up burning me out in the end. I suspect most everyone (at least here in the U.S.) really falls somewhere on the spectrum of kidney disease from constant inflows of protein and that this is one of the major reasons it is beneficial to restrict the timing. I'm thinking of protein timing similar to how I know I feel better if I limit my coffee intake to just the first half of the day, if I let myself drink it all day long I get burnt out after several days of this; even with plenty of fat and sugar it is overly stimulating for me to keep it going constantly. In the realm of macros, discounting PUFA which we all know is basically unfit for human consumption, I suspect that common protein foods likely creates the most metabolic cellular waste burden. I've been looking for a table on average calories and macros for breakfast by country - to then compare with the average life expectancy. It is not easy to find but from picking around a little I think I see a decent correlation developing of lower calories / lower protein at breakfast relating to life expectancy. I know Peat would make the case that calorie restriction is simply effective because it limits the toxins, that a low-toxin and normal calorie diet would be superior; this I do not doubt and I am all for the ample calories and healthy metabolism. At the moment I think intermittent fasting is too extreme, will create a fatigued state in the end, but that there is certainly a benefit to be had by limiting the frequency of stress put on our organs. My intuition tells me that the 800 calories and 40 grams of protein at every meal standard is not healthy, that there has to be a sweet spot in macro timing that: extends the efficiency level of autophagy, is pro-thyroid / metabolism, is complete in needed calories and macros. If autophagy is highest overnight in the fasted / resting state, it makes sense that a limited breakfast would be the most effective time to extend the benefits of autophagy.

 

[x-ray peat]

My opinion is it is good to do occasionally, probably best to save for days when you know you will be very sedentary. I feel better when I eat like this. I don't keep any strict rules, but usually save protein heavy meals for lunch and dinner, and some days I just don't get that much protein if I don't feel like it, I find my energy is better when I simply listen to my appetite. I emailed Ray about it, his response was very short without any explanation, perhaps someone else knows his general explanation and can share it.

Me:
"Hi Ray,

I would like to hear your thoughts on this idea of improving ones health by promoting autophagy through the occasional restriction of protein intake to under 5% of total calories for the day, while not restricting saturated fat or sugar intake.

More can be found here: Protein Cycling Diet

The idea is "inducing autophagy by diet manipulation may delay or prevent the neurodegenerative diseases of aging".

Do you see any benefits for someone to do this restriction several times a week? For instance when one has a muscle injury that is taking a long time to heal and they are already getting proper nutrition, would this be worth trying or is it a case of more potential risk than reward.
Provided general health and nutrition is already okay, would promoting autophagy like this put too much stress on the body which over time will lead to hypothyroidism, similarly to how regular fasting will?
Is there a simple way one could limit certain aminos / forms of protein, rather than restrict all protein - to achieve a similar state of autophagy? What about supplements or foods to promote autophagy.
Thank you,"

Ray's response:
"I don’t think it’s benefical or safe to increase it."

The concept makes a lot of sense to me, autophagy operates efficiently in youth and then slows down proportionally with age, why wouldn't we want to keep the levels active? It is a large factor at play during the years of peak-health; waking up feeling refreshed - going to bed sore and waking up not sore - I suspect that is largely from the autophagy which occurs during rest. Promoting autophagy doesn't seem very disimilar to me to the logic many of us share when we opt to start taking pregnenolone in our 30s and on, in fact I would say it is less extreme in that it is an inherent adaptation of the body rather than a foreign substance we are introducing.

I seem to have the same response as you so far. Im not dogmatic about it either and if I feel like needing protein on an off day ill eat it. I do feel a bit more energized on non protein days. Probably due to not having to expend more energy digesting a complicated dinner as well as some autophagy going on.

Not working out on non protein days is a good idea. But I like to eat protein at all breakfasts so I don’t knock down my already low morning cortisol. Also I know I feel better than if I just eat carbs and fat.

Not surprising that Ray is not into anything catabolic or smacks of intermittent fasting.

Since we are talking about the benefits of autophagy I'll also mention the benefits of serrapeptase and natokinase. For anyone who doesnt already know, these enzymes remove excess fibrin and dead scar tisuue from throughout the body. May even reverse arteriosclerosis.

 

[Peatness]

The Ray Peat audience is expanding

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