Vitamin D hypersensitivity

[Korven]

I would really like to hear explanation why, because i received my (1.25-OH) results today, which is in the middle range, whilst at the same time i am severely depleted of 25-OH . Maybe 25OH really is irrelevant if its hardly carry any function before it's being converted to active form ? can somebody explain me ?

The Ray Peat/Danny Roddy view is that vitamin D (cholecalciferol form) and calcium will suppress PTH and lower the active "harmful" form 1,25-OH that binds to the VDR.

However I have my doubts whether the story about vitamin D is this simple. Some people report amazing benefits from vitamin D, and some (including myself) just feel terrible and develop more health problems. I took up to 50 K per day with all the co-factors and my 25-OH levels just wouldn't budge from 30 ng/dl. And I got a lot sicker than I already was.

And I don't know if it's always desirable to lower the active form 1,25-OH/calcitriol because activating the VDR is essential for taking out intra-cellular pathogens via antimicrobial peptides. Trevor Marshall has some interesting information on vitamin D being an immunosuppressive similar to cortisol - it can make symptoms go away in the short-term but makes you sicker long-term due to reduced immunity and increased pathogen burden.

I also have a suspicion that taking large doses of oral vitamin D can shut down bile flow which is really bad.

Overall it seems pretty sketchy to me to supplement with vitamin D and I feel way, way better by sticking with sunshine exposure. In fact I did pretty well my entire life without taking any vitamin D, things only went downhill when I started messing with supplements like vitamin D. If one were to supplement with vitamin D I'd stick with applying it topically. We also store cholecalciferol in adipose tissue that can be converted to 25-OH and 1,25-OH.

 

[BearWithMe]

I also have a suspicion that taking large doses of oral vitamin D can shut down bile flow which is really bad.

This is really interesting, why do you think vitamin D can shut down bile flow? Is that reversibly or permanently? Any detail you can share on this would be greatly appreciated

 

[Korven]

This is really interesting, why do you think vitamin D can shut down bile flow? Is that reversibly or permanently? Any detail you can share on this would be greatly appreciated

I got the idea from crazy guy Dr. Garrett Smith, so take it with a grain of salt, but it seems to match my experience perfectly. My digestion and "feeling poisoned" symptoms got gradually worse during the years I took vitamin D and got exponentially worse when I went up to around 50.000 IU per day.

The idea is that overdosing on fat-solubles will cause bile acid suppression via a negative feedback mechanism (so you don't absorb as much and poison yourself):

"We speculate that the mechanisms allowing vitamins A and D to control feedback repression of bile acid synthesis may have evolved to protect the organism from exposure to potentially toxic levels of lipid-soluble vitamins in the diet." From: Regulation of bile acid synthesis by fat-soluble vitamins A and D - PubMed

 

[BearWithMe]

I got the idea from crazy guy Dr. Garrett Smith, so take it with a grain of salt, but it seems to match my experience perfectly. My digestion and "feeling poisoned" symptoms got gradually worse during the years I took vitamin D and got exponentially worse when I went up to around 50.000 IU per day.

The idea is that overdosing on fat-solubles will cause bile acid suppression via a negative feedback mechanism (so you don't absorb as much and poison yourself):

"We speculate that the mechanisms allowing vitamins A and D to control feedback repression of bile acid synthesis may have evolved to protect the organism from exposure to potentially toxic levels of lipid-soluble vitamins in the diet." From: Regulation of bile acid synthesis by fat-soluble vitamins A and D - PubMed

Wow, this actually makes complete sense and also explains lot of my experience. Thank you for sharing!

 

[Gustav3Y]

Do you say sunshine derived Vitamin D is not having the same claimed negative effects of Vitamin D?
Does not add up.
Also why should someone orally take 50K IU per day for months in the first place?

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

Do you say sunshine derived Vitamin D is not having the same claimed negative effects of Vitamin D?
Does not add up.
Also why should someone orally take 50K IU per day for months in the first place?

One of the points being brought up is that the sun derived vitamin D has a bunch of metabolites that we don't know the function of and how it's regulated.

 

[Gustav3Y]

One of the points being brought up is that the sun derived vitamin D has a bunch of metabolites that we don't know the function of and how it's regulated.

I see what what you mean.

I still don't think gulping on huge oral D3 doses daily for months is a good thing, even if ironically some person could come and say that is the basic thing that makes their life better.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

I see what what you mean.

I still don't think gulping on huge oral D3 doses daily for months is a good thing, even if ironically some person could come and say that is the basic thing that makes their life better.

Absolutely agree! What I meant is that those metabolites can be a good thing and were designed by mother nature. :)

 

[Korven]

Do you say sunshine derived Vitamin D is not having the same claimed negative effects of Vitamin D?
Does not add up.
Also why should someone orally take 50K IU per day for months in the first place?

My experience has been that sunshine makes me feel really good vs supplemental vitamin D which has the opposite effect. As mentioned it could be that vitamin D from sun exposure is different somehow; Stephanie Seneff has pointed out that sunshine derived vitamin D is in a sulfated form that has different effects compared to un-sulfated cholecalciferol. Also the body regulates skin vitamin D synthesis so it's more difficult to overdo it. There's obviously other benefits from sun exposure so it's likely not only a vitamin D issue!

For many months I was taking around 2000-5000 IU per day to get my blood vitamin D up to the levels Peat recommends - around or above 50 ng/ml. My levels were still low so I decided to increase the dose, still not feeling any better. The experiment with very large doses of vitamin D only lasted for maybe 2 weeks (inspired by the Coimbra protocol using high dose vitamin D for reducing autoimmunity) and was one of many desperate attempts to try and fix my rapidly declining health... even then I still couldn't push up my vitamin D levels to the Peat approved range.

Don't get me wrong, if someone feels awesome with supplemental vitamin D then I don't want to discourage them from taking it!

I just don't think it's as simple as: take vitamin D = get to 50 ng/ml or above = enjoy good health. At least not for me.

 

[Gustav3Y]

I just don't think it's as simple as: take vitamin D = get to 50 ng/ml or above = enjoy good health. At least not for me.

Agree.
Actually I find it hard to even go over 50ng/ml with supplementation.
I am worse heath-wise than people I know with alarming low vit D3 levels.

 

[Korven]

Agree.
Actually I find it hard to even go over 50ng/ml with supplementation.
I am worse heath-wise than people I know with alarming low vit D3 levels.

This is one of the greatest mysteries for me - why does Danny Roddy and Ray swear by vitamin D being such a panacea (and I don't think they are lying) while we don't respond at all and/or get even worse?

I'm still trying to get my head around this, but I think a clue is that chronic infections mess with the VDR and waste 25-OH, and simply taking a bunch of vitamin D is not necessarily going to fix the issue. This is an interesting paper on the topic: Inflammation and vitamin D: the infection connection - Inflammation Research

"In summary, elevated 1,25(OH)2D, often accompanied by reduced 25(OH)D, is a clinical sign of dysregulated vitamin D metabolism and evidence that the immune system is competing with parasitic microbes for VDR dominance. Failure of the immune system to mount an effective anti-microbial response results in persistent intracellular infection. This induces relentless inflammation (immunopathology) which causes tissue damage and disease symptoms."

 

[Gustav3Y]

This is one of the greatest mysteries for me - why does Danny Roddy and Ray swear by vitamin D being such a panacea (and I don't think they are lying) while we don't respond at all and/or get even worse?

Maybe also due to personal anecdotes being strong with them, I mean how many time Danny exemplifies himself how just by supplementing calcium all his issues got fixed, prolactin, thyroid, cold genitalia with calcium.

There has been the hard debate weather vit D needs so many other cofactors and other supplementation to properly work, they would also say this.

"In summary, elevated 1,25(OH)2D, often accompanied by reduced 25(OH)D, is a clinical sign of dysregulated vitamin D metabolism and evidence that the immune system is competing with parasitic microbes for VDR dominance. Failure of the immune system to mount an effective anti-microbial response results in persistent intracellular infection. This induces relentless inflammation (immunopathology) which causes tissue damage and disease symptoms."

I guess this would be the reason by which they say 25 is relevant and not 1,25.



Another rather strange thing to me is the belief that being in the sun the Vit D will raise and "what do I need oral D3 for?", when we know people in the sun often do not have high levels of D3, so just sitting in the sun does not mean high D3 level automatically in the end.

 

[Electrisio]

For anyone interested, I’ve managed to finally get on top of this reaction. I can now take a normal vitamin d dose no problem. It seems I was having paradoxical hypercalcemic reaction as @BearWithMe pointed out. Taking calcium at the same time as the vitamin d alleviated the negative response. For some reason it has to be at the same time, before I would take calcium sometime after the D3 but it didn’t seem to stop the reaction.

 

[Kaur Singh]

My experience has been that sunshine makes me feel really good vs supplemental vitamin D which has the opposite effect. As mentioned it could be that vitamin D from sun exposure is different somehow; Stephanie Seneff has pointed out that sunshine derived vitamin D is in a sulfated form that has different effects compared to un-sulfated cholecalciferol. Also the body regulates skin vitamin D synthesis so it's more difficult to overdo it. There's obviously other benefits from sun exposure so it's likely not only a vitamin D issue!

For many months I was taking around 2000-5000 IU per day to get my blood vitamin D up to the levels Peat recommends - around or above 50 ng/ml. My levels were still low so I decided to increase the dose, still not feeling any better. The experiment with very large doses of vitamin D only lasted for maybe 2 weeks (inspired by the Coimbra protocol using high dose vitamin D for reducing autoimmunity) and was one of many desperate attempts to try and fix my rapidly declining health... even then I still couldn't push up my vitamin D levels to the Peat approved range.

Don't get me wrong, if someone feels awesome with supplemental vitamin D then I don't want to discourage them from taking it!

I just don't think it's as simple as: take vitamin D = get to 50 ng/ml or above = enjoy good health. At least not for me.

there's a lot more that is beneficial in that sun exposure that just the vitamin D.

perhaps the positive effects you notice from the sun are due to red light, etc.

also, see this:

Ok little update for everyone.
My skin issues resolved almost 2 days after applying K2-MK4 [ 45mg] on my stomach area.
I've supplemented K2-MK4 [ 45mg] orally with VIT E [1.5g] and progesterone and that did NOTHING for 45 days. As soon as I applied topically I got results

from someone going sideways with D

Bleeding again, now after D3 supplement - SUPER CONFUSED

I'm beyond confused. I've started supplementing VIT D3 [30 000 IU] and gelatin [1 tbsp] four days ago and today I've started bleeding after defecating. The same thing happened a few months ago when I supplemented Cynomel and Cynoplus and with exchanged emails with Dr. Peat we came to the...

raypeatforum.com

 

[BearWithMe]

For anyone interested, I’ve managed to finally get on top of this reaction. I can now take a normal vitamin d dose no problem. It seems I was having paradoxical hypercalcemic reaction as @BearWithMe pointed out. Taking calcium at the same time as the vitamin d alleviated the negative response. For some reason it has to be at the same time, before I would take calcium sometime after the D3 but it didn’t seem to stop the reaction.

 

[Electrisio]

Ok, so an interesting update here. In the past I had always taken Vitamin D alongside doing full body red light therapy, a biohack I used to do everyday. However, I haven't done any red light therapy in a while, including when I started taking vitamin D the last couple of days. So, I randomly decided to do red light therapy a couple hours ago and I'm noticing these weird paradoxical hypercalcemia symptoms. Does anybody know if the red light therapy could be affecting my parathyroid or thyroid levels that combined with Vitamin D lead to this hypercalcemia?

 

[Gustav3Y]

For anyone interested, I’ve managed to finally get on top of this reaction. I can now take a normal vitamin d dose no problem. It seems I was having paradoxical hypercalcemic reaction as @BearWithMe pointed out. Taking calcium at the same time as the vitamin d alleviated the negative response. For some reason it has to be at the same time, before I would take calcium sometime after the D3 but it didn’t seem to stop the reaction.

I assume you blood calcium test levels were always fine?

 

[BearWithMe]

Ok, so an interesting update here. In the past I had always taken Vitamin D alongside doing full body red light therapy, a biohack I used to do everyday. However, I haven't done any red light therapy in a while, including when I started taking vitamin D the last couple of days. So, I randomly decided to do red light therapy a couple hours ago and I'm noticing these weird paradoxical hypercalcemia symptoms. Does anybody know if the red light therapy could be affecting my parathyroid or thyroid levels that combined with Vitamin D lead to this hypercalcemia?

Back in my hypercalcemic days, red light therapy made my symptoms significantly worse, too.

You should replete your body with calcium before doing any other experiments. At least a couple months of high calcium diet.

But I have already told you that.

You can't do two days of high calcium diet and expect to be healthy. It just doesn't work like that

 

[Gustav3Y]

Back in my hypercalcemic days, red light therapy made my symptoms significantly worse, too.

How is it now, do you enjoy red light therapy?

 

[BearWithMe]

How is it now, do you enjoy red light therapy?

I don't think red light therapy is healthy. Full spectrum light therapy is the way to go. And yes, I enjoy that a lot