Vitamin D3 main ingredient in Rat Poison? A bad supp?

[AnonE]

I came across a certain internet doctor Garrett Smith claiming D3 is rat poison. So I looked into it, and sure enough, high dose D3 is in rat poison.

Does this mean it could have negative effects for humans as a supplement? Though I think many vitamins can be toxic at high doses. Why do they use D3 then?

Smith also hinted that what our body produces from sunlight is very different from what we get with a D supplement.

Thoughts?

 

[TradClare]

My only thought is that it's pretty weird that there is an epidemic of D deficiency. If you look at old pictures, people used to dress very modestly and always wore hats outside too. Since A and D seem to oppose one another, I think Dr. Smith makes a lot of sense suggesting hypervitaminosis A is causing the low D. Eating low A made my D levels go up even though I stopped taking D at the same time. Sunshine is good for us for many reasons besides making vitamin/hormone D. I'm not sure that taking D in normal doses is harmful though. I'm pretty convicted now about vitamin A being poisonous

 

[youngsinatra]

My only thought is that it's pretty weird that there is an epidemic of D deficiency. If you look at old pictures, people used to dress very modestly and always wore hats outside too. Since A and D seem to oppose one another, I think Dr. Smith makes a lot of sense suggesting hypervitaminosis A is causing the low D. Eating low A made my D levels go up even though I stopped taking D at the same time. Sunshine is good for us for many reasons besides making vitamin/hormone D. I'm not sure that taking D in normal doses is harmful though. I'm pretty convicted now about vitamin A being poisonous

 

[Limon9]

It's terrifying. I'm told that rats were often killed by drowning in water, and fruits are full of that stuff.

 

[redsun]

My only thought is that it's pretty weird that there is an epidemic of D deficiency. If you look at old pictures, people used to dress very modestly and always wore hats outside too. Since A and D seem to oppose one another, I think Dr. Smith makes a lot of sense suggesting hypervitaminosis A is causing the low D. Eating low A made my D levels go up even though I stopped taking D at the same time. Sunshine is good for us for many reasons besides making vitamin/hormone D. I'm not sure that taking D in normal doses is harmful though. I'm pretty convicted now about vitamin A being poisonous

Garrett is right that very high retinol intake will cause low vitamin D. This does not mean vitamin A is poison. It is definitely not a poison and is in fact a very vital nutrient. High dose retinol say from eating tons of liver for months or years causes increased bone resorption, which makes bone calcium go into the blood which then the kidneys have to excrete. If you do this for a very long awhile you will get lower BMD. Vitamin D is depleted indirectly because your body keeps trying to increase calcium absorption from the gut to compensate for excessive calcium loss caused by too high retinol intake. It does this by converting the 25-hydroxy vitamin D that is tested in the blood to active vitamin D known as calcitriol. You can also get low vitamin D from low dietary intake or lack of sunlight, or lack of dietary calcium, or most commonly a combination of all of these.

The answer is not that vitamin A is poison. The answer to vitamin A causing bone loss is having adequate dietary calcium and vitamin D levels to begin with and to not go insane with preformed retinol intake for long periods of time. This whole vitamin A is a toxin idea started because of people consuming absolutely insane doses of retinol from liver for months at a time. You can get vitamin A toxicity but this does not mean vitamin A is inheritantly a toxin. Vitamin A toxicity usually goes away in a few months but for some it may take longer depending on how crazy they were with doses. If you do this long enough you will unfortunately see a dramatic reduction in overall skin quality like I did. That is the biggest thing I noticed.

 

[youngsinatra]

The shitty part is that hypervitaminosis A directly causes bone resorption, without the action of PTH and 1,25D.

„Circulating levels of the potent bone resorbers, PTH, 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D, and 25-hydroxyvitamin D, were, however, comparable in vitamin A-toxic and control animals, suggesting a possible direct effect of vitamin A on bone.“
— Effects of hypervitaminosis A on the bone and mineral metabolism of the rat - PubMed

Many case reports and studies have shown that individuals with hypervitaminosis A actually have extremely low PTH. (oftentimes undetectable levels)

Hypervitaminosis A and calcium-regulating hormones in the rat - PubMed

The effect of vitamin A on calcium-regulating hormones was studied in rats. A single oral dose of 30 mg retinol equivalents (RE) given to adult rats caused no change to serum biologically active parathyroid hormone (bioactive-PTH) concentrations. Bioactive-PTH secretion from rat thyroparathyroid...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

If the solution to hypervitaminosis A would be vitamin D and calcium, we would habe a simple cure, but from my experience — it does not negate the systemic detriment of excess serum retinol.

The solution to hypervitaminosis A is getting rid of it through the bile and poop. And it can take a long time depending on how high your preformed vitamin A intake was in the past.

Btw, if serum retinol goes above a certain threshold, your liver is already maximally flooded with it.

 

[redsun]

The shitty part is that hypervitaminosis A directly causes bone resorption, without the action of PTH and 1,25D.

„Circulating levels of the potent bone resorbers, PTH, 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D, and 25-hydroxyvitamin D, were, however, comparable in vitamin A-toxic and control animals, suggesting a possible direct effect of vitamin A on bone.“
— Effects of hypervitaminosis A on the bone and mineral metabolism of the rat - PubMed

Many case reports and studies have shown that individuals with hypervitaminosis A actually have extremely low PTH. (oftentimes undetectable levels)

Hypervitaminosis A and calcium-regulating hormones in the rat - PubMed

The effect of vitamin A on calcium-regulating hormones was studied in rats. A single oral dose of 30 mg retinol equivalents (RE) given to adult rats caused no change to serum biologically active parathyroid hormone (bioactive-PTH) concentrations. Bioactive-PTH secretion from rat thyroparathyroid...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

If the solution to hypervitaminosis A would be vitamin D and calcium, we would habe a simple cure, but from my experience — it does not negate the systemic detriment of excess serum retinol.

The solution to hypervitaminosis A is getting rid of it through the bile and poop. And it can take a long time depending on how high your preformed vitamin A intake was in the past.

Btw, if serum retinol goes above a certain threshold, your liver is already maximally flooded with it.

Right, the only solution to vitamin A toxicity is to normalize vitamin A levels in the body. Vitamin D and calcium do not fix the toxicity of vitamin A, they are needed to restore the reduced bone mineral density caused by vitamin A whether its due to toxic levels of intake or normal ranges of vitamin A intake with a low vitamin D and calcium intake.

Vitamin A toxicity will make you lose bone despite normal vitamin D and calcium intake. Only when toxicity goes away can BMD start to improve again with the appropriate nutrients. But even with normal dietary intakes of retinol (no toxicity present), you can still lose BMD if vitamin D and calcium is inadequate for long periods of time. This is what I meant. Maybe the way I wrote it came across like I was saying vitamin D and calcium fixes toxicity but I was not. It does not fix toxicity but they are needed to restore BMD that can only restore once vitamin A levels are brought back down to normal.

 

[twillisdc]

Garrett is right that very high retinol intake will cause low vitamin D. This does not mean vitamin A is poison. It is definitely not a poison and is in fact a very vital nutrient. High dose retinol say from eating tons of liver for months or years causes increased bone resorption, which makes bone calcium go into the blood which then the kidneys have to excrete. If you do this for a very long awhile you will get lower BMD. Vitamin D is depleted indirectly because your body keeps trying to increase calcium absorption from the gut to compensate for excessive calcium loss caused by too high retinol intake. It does this by converting the 25-hydroxy vitamin D that is tested in the blood to active vitamin D known as calcitriol. You can also get low vitamin D from low dietary intake or lack of sunlight, or lack of dietary calcium, or most commonly a combination of all of these.

The answer is not that vitamin A is poison. The answer to vitamin A causing bone loss is having adequate dietary calcium and vitamin D levels to begin with and to not go insane with preformed retinol intake for long periods of time. This whole vitamin A is a toxin idea started because of people consuming absolutely insane doses of retinol from liver for months at a time. You can get vitamin A toxicity but this does not mean vitamin A is inheritantly a toxin. Vitamin A toxicity usually goes away in a few months but for some it may take longer depending on how crazy they were with doses. If you do this long enough you will unfortunately see a dramatic reduction in overall skin quality like I did. That is the biggest thing I noticed.

Very helpful and reassuring explanation.

 

[youngsinatra]

Right, the only solution to vitamin A toxicity is to normalize vitamin A levels in the body. Vitamin D and calcium do not fix the toxicity of vitamin A, they are needed to restore the reduced bone mineral density caused by vitamin A whether its due to toxic levels of intake or normal ranges of vitamin A intake with a low vitamin D and calcium intake.

Vitamin A toxicity will make you lose bone despite normal vitamin D and calcium intake. Only when toxicity goes away can BMD start to improve again with the appropriate nutrients. But even with normal dietary intakes of retinol (no toxicity present), you can still lose BMD if vitamin D and calcium is inadequate for long periods of time. This is what I meant. Maybe the way I wrote it came across like I was saying vitamin D and calcium fixes toxicity but I was not. It does not fix toxicity but they are needed to restore BMD that can only restore once vitamin A levels are brought back down to normal.

Ah thanks for clarification. I misunderstood your first post.

 

[PhilParma]

Water is the main ingredient in waterboarding.

 

[Limon9]

This whole vitamin A is a toxin idea started because of people consuming absolutely insane doses of retinol from liver for months at a time. You can get vitamin A toxicity but this does not mean vitamin A is inheritantly a toxin. Vitamin A toxicity usually goes away in a few months but for some it may take longer depending on how crazy they were with doses.

It started with Grant Genereux's first book in 2015 - where the concept of slow, decades-long toxicity from a normal, non-liver diet was already central. But GG's forum certainly has a higher-than-average preponderance of Accutane sponges and people from "other diets" which included frequent organ meats or retinol supplementation. (@youngsinatra is one such)

 

[redsun]

It started with Grant Genereux's first book in 2015 - where the concept of slow, decades-long toxicity from a normal, non-liver diet was already central. But GG's forum certainly has a higher-than-average preponderance of Accutane sponges and people from "other diets" which included frequent organ meats or retinol supplementation. (@youngsinatra is one such)

Apologies I meant started as in gained traction here on this forum because of the liberal consumption of liver by many here. Not started as in it originated here. The ideas proposed by Grant would likely not have gotten as much attention on this forum if it weren't for so many users here consuming very large amounts of dietary and supplemental retinol regularly due to Ray Peat's stance on it.

 

[Limon9]

Apologies I meant started as in gained traction here on this forum because of the liberal consumption of liver by many here. Not started as in it originated here. The ideas proposed by Grant would likely not have gotten as much attention on this forum if it weren't for so many users here consuming very large amounts of dietary and supplemental retinol regularly due to Ray Peat's stance on it.

Yep. Plenty of hypervitaminosis A on Ray Peat Forum. A lot of that mega-thread is basically junk, but it brings a lot of traffic.

 

[LeeLemonoil]

And thanks for „synopting“ it here

 

[Peatress]

We are not rats

 

[Ben.]

Well i get temporarily blind from vitamin d supplementation. Definately poisionous to me.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

The human equivalent dose of what would normally kill a mouse is 1,500,000 IU. I don't know about you, but I typically take 5,000 - 10,000 IU per day. The same way that I don't intake 450 liters of water per day, which I guess must be a poison too, because that much would also kill me.

 

[Peatress]

Well i get temporarily blind from vitamin d supplementation. Definately poisionous to me.

Wow how much were you taking when this happens?

 

[Ben.]

Wow how much were you taking when this happens?

if i take a high dose like 8k or 10k it happense within 10 minutes.

if i take 500-1000 per day it happense within a week or two.

 

[Jessie]

I don't trust anything "internet doctors" have to say. The internet is where doctors go when no one else will listen to their quackery. "Doctor" Berg, "Doctor" Saldino, "Doctor" Axe, "Doctor" Baker, and now the poison A guy? Get real, I wouldn't trust these morons to rob the special olympics, much less take their advice seriously.

Most aren't even real doctors. They just get some dumb "functional medicine" and/or chiropractic degree. It's very misleading how they present themselves as some authority on medicine and health.

If you don't tolerate vit D3 supplementation then so be it (I am actually one of those, oral D3 gives me unrelenting insomnia). But the fact remains there's not a single publishable scientific paper on the merits of "low vitamin D." All parameters of your health suffer when serum D is too low.

Metabolic syndrome, insulin resistance, kidney disease, androgen deficiency, CVD, libido, mental health, etc. all decline if you're missing vitamin D. If the supplement won't work for you, you better find an alternative, like sunlight or artificial lights. If the oral supplement works for you, then damn, I envy how lucky you are.