Vit E, Boron spikes my estrogen...

[bornamachine]

Hello everyone, thought I'd post this and someone can chime in?

35, male.

I read before that Vit E is basically an anti estrogen, so along my journey some years ago around 32yo I tried to apply a few drops, maybe in my arms or my chest. My experience is that I immidealty felt a "boost" in my T with male quality frequency etc maybe even a little nut pain probably from the testes going into overdrive but next day I noticed an increase in esteogen for example my nipples became hard next day and sensetive and chest tissue fat became more jiggly, which was not a normal thing for me as far hard nipples or even feeling them under normal conditions.

Now, same thing with alcohol, a small amount of brandy in brandy candy, we are talking about 1 teaspoon in 2 candies I would exhibit the same effects with definite nut type pain

So it's been a couple years if not more and I haven't tried any of those since and
now Boron, I've read that on a temporary cycle it can raise free T, I finally decided to try boron, before bed yesterday I took a 3mg pill, and dumped most of it out so it was probably 0.5mg at most. I took it on an empty stomach before bed and within 30 mins it made me kick in like I took viagra or something. (def something that has not happened in a long time randomly like that)
Now, today, I woke up, and my chest again is very watery (usually tighter in the morning and more flabby by days end) no weird nipple sensitivity but one was hard and became normal shortly after, no nut pain, maybe a slight "humm" but idk, nothing like before.

Anyway, TMI I know but I need to paint the whole picture.

What I understand is that a "spike" in T can also indicate that "holy crap we just got hit with a bunch of estrogen we need to go into overdirve to counter it!" Hence the "positive" temp effect of these substances followed by negative effect.
I know most people are not like that and react quite well let's say to Vit E.

What is wrong with me? What pathway is messed up and what can I do to fix it?

Thank you

 

[HighT]

Big spike in T will lead that extra ammount to convert to estrogen.

 

[stoic]

Which products did you use?

The toxic or undeclared ingredients in supplements can be damaging enough to cause estrogenic reactions.

 

[bornamachine]

Which products did you use?

The toxic or undeclared ingredients in supplements can be damaging enough to cause estrogenic reactions.

Thanks for the input. Just some generic otc vitamins. Vitamin E is liquid, just a couple of drops applied topically. Boron was a capsule.

I chose 'higher' quality stuff but I understand all of this stuff is contaminated with something, but, I do not believe it was some contaminant rather exactly the E or boron or brandy alcohol.

I'm trying to understand why I spiked my estrogen from taking a miniscule amount while others do not.

 

[bornamachine]

Big spike in T will lead that extra ammount to convert to estrogen.

So is this something that most people experience?

From my basic understanding the spike in T is in RESPONCE to a spike in estrogen in order to counter it.

Is that not correct?

When I read Ray Peats work on vitamin E it seemed like a wonder anti estrogen drug but when I tried it, I got the opposite effect..

 

[HighT]

From my basic understanding the spike in T is in RESPONCE to a spike in estrogen in order to counter it.

This too, but also aromatase enzyme is converting extra T to an E.

Aromatase - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

''In particular, aromatase is responsible for the aromatization of androgens into estrogens.''

So with trying to boost testosterone you need to inhibit that enzyme.

Im not an expert just have read a bit this forum, but Im not sure if vit.E by itself is blocking estrogen. For example ideallabs product called estroban contains K, D, A vitamins aswell.

 

[HighT]

''On the other hand, 1997 study where healthy men took 10mg of boron for 4 weeks showed 11% increase in testosterone levels, but also their estradiol rise shocking 42,39% which is composite opposite result what above mentioned recent study demonstrated.47''

How To Lower Estrogen in Men - Super Nutrition Life

How to lower estrogen in men? That is the question that keeps emerging from time to time.

www.supernutritionlife.com

Also as stoic mentioned quality of the supplement is very important most vit.Es are made from soya oils, sunflower etc. Here is the ingridient list from random one and I didn't even search it:

Tocopherol, Macadamia Integrifolia / Tetraphylla Seed Oil, Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis Oil, Simmondsia Chinensis Seed Oil *, Perfume, Glycine Soja Extract, Limonene, Evernia Prunastri Extract, Benzronellol, Linalool, Eugenol, Citral, Coumarin, Geraniol.

 

[Hans]

''On the other hand, 1997 study where healthy men took 10mg of boron for 4 weeks showed 11% increase in testosterone levels, but also their estradiol rise shocking 42,39% which is composite opposite result what above mentioned recent study demonstrated.47''

How To Lower Estrogen in Men - Super Nutrition Life

How to lower estrogen in men? That is the question that keeps emerging from time to time.

www.supernutritionlife.com

Also as stoic mentioned quality of the supplement is very important most vit.Es are made from soya oils, sunflower etc. Here is the ingridient list from random one and I didn't even search it:

Tocopherol, Macadamia Integrifolia / Tetraphylla Seed Oil, Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis Oil, Simmondsia Chinensis Seed Oil *, Perfume, Glycine Soja Extract, Limonene, Evernia Prunastri Extract, Benzronellol, Linalool, Eugenol, Citral, Coumarin, Geraniol.

The increase in estradiol was from 51.9±21.4 to 73.9±22.2 pmol/L, which is about 14 to 20ng/ml, which would be considered the lower end of normal. T increased from 501 to 560ng/dl. There was another study where they used 11mg boron for 7 days and E2 dropped from around 40 to under 30. So to me, it rather seems like boron balances estrogen if that makes sense.

 

[Motorneuron]

All tocopherol Is anti androgen.......

 

[Sweatshop Toad]

Now this is strictly anecdotal, but I have reason to suspect I may be an XXY male which makes me the canary in the coal mine for anything estrogenic. And I’ve been experimenting with boron for years, but every time I get back on it I experience an increase in watery chest fat I can’t burn off plus a general increase of “feminine” emotions.

Well the other day I once re-added boron to my candida stack and I can already feel my gyno returning along with an increase of sentimentality, although that could just be from grieving over Ray.

At any rate I’ll keep plodding along with the boron and update you guys down the road for the sake of posterity.

 

[gabys225]

Another thing to note is the boron will deplete riboflavin, to the point where some naturopaths consider boron toxic. Boron will help with the hydroxylation of steroids, which means T more readily converts to DHT, Estrogen has a tendency to turn into Estriol, and so forth. Stronger androgens and weaker estrogens, it's a Peatarian dream come true.

However, this also increases the conversion of 25 vitamin D to 1,25 vitamin D. Significantly. Dr. Jorge Flechas discusses this in his lecture because he was puzzled as to why his vitamin D was showing up low in labs then he realized they weren't testing the "active" form. Read Danny Roddy's excellent article on vitamin D :

Vitamin D: Bioenergetic Wunderkind or Arbiter of Doom?

"What could be more important to understand than biological energy? Thought, growth, movement, every philosophical and practical issue involves the nature of biological energy." — Raymond Peat

dannyroddy.substack.com

Why am I discussing vitamin D? Because boron will increase your 1,25 D levels, which will increase PTH (the logic is clear if you read the article). Elevated PTH is problematic for the many reasons listed in the article, it does the opposite of everything we aim to achieve.

This is boron's Achilles heel. And it is a damn shame too because it would be an amazing mineral otherwise.

If you don't believe Dr. Flechas, check out the vitamin D wiki and look at the research on boron. It shows the same elevation in 1,25 D.

I learned this the hard way, trying to optimize androgens and wondering why I felt so crummy. It feels great for a few days then the elevated PTH symptoms start to kick in.

If the conversion to 1,25 D could be blocked, boron taken with adequate riboflavin could be the unicorn it appears to be. If anyone has any ideas I'm all ears.

Boron is quickly excreted so if you're experimenting with it and having sides you'll be ok in a few days.

 

[Zoltanman]

@bornamachine Doesn't seem like this was mentioned re Vit E yet, but it opposes estrogen and I've always associated your reaction (that I've seen in myself too) with stored estrogen being mobilised out of tissues for excretion.

 

[bornamachine]

Im not an expert just have read a bit this forum, but Im not sure if vit.E by itself is blocking estrogen. For example ideallabs product called estroban contains K, D, A vitamins aswell.

I actually bought eatroban shortly after haidut started his product line, this was years ago, I tried it once or twice and I remember feeling simply TERRIBLE and I never tried it again, been in the fridge since.

73.9±22.2 pmol/L, which is about 14 to 20ng/ml, which would be considered the lower end of normal. T increased from 501 to 560ng/dl. There was another study where they used 11mg boron for 7 days and E2 dropped from around 40 to under 30. So to me, it rather seems like boron balances estrogen if that makes sense.

I see that their T increased and their E decreased overall, I just don't know, it seems like their T in the 500 range is pretty good to begin with and starting an experiment on a relatively healthy male is diff than one whose T is in let's say 200 or something. Like I said, idk, I just dont trust anything anymore! Solutions seem to flee me and many of us!

All tocopherol Is anti androgen.......

Can you expand on that?
The Vit E that I tried back in the day was D-alpha tacopherol from soy
I understand soy has xenoestrogen but from my memory researching back then is that it's not a problem because it is derived and extracted from, almost like saying "this paint is made out of corn" but if you cant eat or absorb that paint like you could corn in the original state, meaning that even soy derived E is same as any other E (this is what I recall)

Now this is strictly anecdotal, but I have reason to suspect I may be an XXY male which makes me the canary in the coal mine for anything estrogenic. And I’ve been experimenting with boron for years, but every time I get back on it I experience an increase in watery chest fat I can’t burn off plus a general increase of “feminine” emotions.

I cant be sure about the feminine emotions but maybe, maybe.. but it sounds like you have similar effects as me. When you say gyno do you mean actual breast tissue forming or just the fat/water giving you men ti*tties? I think most people use the gyno wrongly, I've used that term to describe having man boobs but that's not the same as gyno though, that's just the way fat and water store, no breast tissue.

 

[Sweatshop Toad]

I actually bought eatroban shortly after haidut started his product line, this was years ago, I tried it once or twice and I remember feeling simply TERRIBLE and I never tried it again, been in the fridge since.



I see that their T increased and their E decreased overall, I just don't know, it seems like their T in the 500 range is pretty good to begin with and starting an experiment on a relatively healthy male is diff than one whose T is in let's say 200 or something. Like I said, idk, I just dont trust anything anymore! Solutions seem to flee me and many of us!


Can you expand on that?
The Vit E that I tried back in the day was D-alpha tacopherol from soy
I understand soy has xenoestrogen but from my memory researching back then is that it's not a problem because it is derived and extracted from, almost like saying "this paint is made out of corn" but if you cant eat or absorb that paint like you could corn in the original state, meaning that even soy derived E is same as any other E (this is what I recall)



I cant be sure about the feminine emotions but maybe, maybe.. but it sounds like you have similar effects as me. When you say gyno do you mean actual breast tissue forming or just the fat/water giving you men ti*tties? I think most people use the gyno wrongly, I've used that term to describe having man boobs but that's not the same as gyno though, that's just the way fat and water store, no breast tissue.

I think it’s just fat/water, I don’t feel any actual breast tissue underneath. But I get a definite increase in chest fat whenever my estrogen is elevated and that’s what happens whenever I take boron.

 

[bornamachine]

Boron is quickly excreted so if you're experimenting with it and having sides you'll be ok in a few days

@bornamachine Doesn't seem like this was mentioned re Vit E yet, but it opposes estrogen and I've always associated your reaction (that I've seen in myself too) with stored estrogen being mobilised out of tissues for excretion

Ok, I understand what you are saying, and totally possible, idk, but IMO it's not the case, I think that if you feel your eatorgen shooting up, it's not because the estrogen is being liberated, but.... Then again, let's say Vit E the 'anti-estorgen' substance does liberate Estrogen, your testes go into overdrive to COUNTER the spike in estrogen, next day you wake up with man boobies (water/fat storage not gyno) gallore and sensitive nipples that are swollen(ish) ok, and this is normal?

So if you take something that will liberate Estrogen, you have to take something that will flush out as well logically speaking, because you are better off then just keeping it in safe storage!

 

[bornamachine]

Just an update on what happened

I took boron on Friday Night before bed
Got the 'viagra' effect
Woke up with swollen cheeks and man boobs (just feels more swollen, looks as well to me)
Saturday plain alwful, slept half day! Just terrible.
Saturday night decided to try carrot salad, felt face/cheeks tighten up some
Sunday woke up with swollen cheeks again, morning had raw carrot and garlic with breakfast
Pretty good day
Now, had one carrot, feel ok

Idk... Seems like my 5ar pathway is all jacked up...

Has anyone heard anything about alcloxa?

 

[bornamachine]

@Sweatshop Toad, dually noted, I don't think I'll be messing with boron anytime soon.

 

[Zoltanman]

Ok, I understand what you are saying, and totally possible, idk, but IMO it's not the case, I think that if you feel your eatorgen shooting up, it's not because the estrogen is being liberated, but.... Then again, let's say Vit E the 'anti-estorgen' substance does liberate Estrogen, your testes go into overdrive to COUNTER the spike in estrogen, next day you wake up with man boobies (water/fat storage not gyno) gallore and sensitive nipples that are swollen(ish) ok, and this is normal?

So if you take something that will liberate Estrogen, you have to take something that will flush out as well logically speaking, because you are better off then just keeping it in safe storage!

This 'estrogen flushing' effect of E I don't think has any reaction coming from testes making T.

if it's liberating it for excretion, your carrot salad experiment here:
"Saturday night decided to try carrot salad, felt face/cheeks tighten up some
Sunday woke up with swollen cheeks again, morning had raw carrot and garlic with breakfast
Pretty good day
Now, had one carrot, feel ok"

is the right way to go. You'll need to make more bile, too. Bitters for bile creation are a good thing when carrot salad or mushroom or oat bran are going in.

B vitamins too, esp B1, B2 and B3 are used for estrogen excretion.

You're right, of course. If there's no safe path out of the body because no bile, B's or carrot fibre, keep it in storage till you get your excretors all lined up and then hit it.

 

[bornamachine]

@Zoltanman

Thanks for the input. Yes I decided to try carrot for some time and see how I feel.
Keep it stupid simple is usually the right way.
I believe I make plenty of bile because I could always digest a lot of greasy food without issues with no signs of low bile. Also my stomach acid is very strong. I've earned my self quite the problem with frequent heartburn with my year long coffee consumption.

Maybe in 1-6 month if I feel like my T is going up that would indicate my overall health is increasing and maybe I'll be able to tolerate boron.

I could try 0.2mg

 

[Nomane Euger]

@bornamachine hi,do you eat liver?